Is provenance as superfluous as the plastic?

mrdq · May 1, 2010 10:19PM

I honestly don't care if a coin is Ex-dweeb Ex-eliasbrothers Ex-buddy epstein or Ex-Wife. Shouldn't the BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC also include BUY THE COIN NOT THE PROVENANCE.

A coin is a coin regardless of who else held it and regardless of who's plastic it's in.

or is it just me.

OchoReales · May 1, 2010 10:29PM

I respectfully disagree. Provenance gives a particular coin verifiable historical background. Grade still matters. If it isn't properly graded, price is adjusted. But, to know that a coin in my care was once in a prominent collection has real meaning to me. Almost like geneology (maybe that's a bad analogy) because I have background info. that gives the coin a unique and traceable story. The 'sizzle' with the steak!

Edited to add; I've usually found that REAL provenance is found on coins that are very high grade or even finest known.

fcloud · May 1, 2010 10:32PM

To each their own. If you don't like them don't buy them, and if for some reason you wind up with one, send it in and the grading services would be happy to remove the pedigree for a reholder fee. Many of them don't carry any premium what-so-ever.

Like you said buy the coin not the holder or pedigree, but if others like myself get a kick out of haveing an Bass, or Eliasberg etc., it souldn't matter to you at all.

PerryHall · May 1, 2010 10:34PM

I like coins with a provenance provided it's a famous person but I won't pay a big premium for that provenance.

Broadstruck · May 1, 2010 10:37PM

Well sometimes those old timers did the leg work for you in seeking out a spectacular example and in that case I don't mind owning a coin that I can trace back 100 years.

Yet if a better example comes along then the pedigree is not something that will keep me from upgrading.

keets · May 1, 2010 10:39PM

i would agree, Tom. perhaps it is important to know the "history" of a particular coin, but that tends to pertain only to a minute number of coins such as the recent MS68 1901-S Barber Quarter. with the advent of the toned coin artificial doctoring phenomenon of the past two decades it is relevant to have traceability regarding the surface quality of coins, but it really matters little to me who the previous owner(s) may have been, certainly not enough to make a premium necessary. also, TPG's such as PCGS and NGC have solved the authentication problem to a very high degree rendering provenance unnecessary in most cases.

JMHO and i accept that others place value on the more prominent provenances.

OchoReales · May 1, 2010 10:39PM

I agree wholeheartly with Broadstruck's statement.

RYK · May 1, 2010 10:47PM

You can choose to collect coins how you like, and I will do the same.

notwilight · May 1, 2010 11:01PM

I suggest you leave the coins with a cool provenance for those of us who appreciate them. --Jery

PerryHall · May 1, 2010 11:09PM

<< To each their own. If you don't like them don't buy them,........ >>

He didn't say that he didn't like them---he said he "don't care" which is not the same thing. Also, why shouldn't he buy the coin if he likes it and the seller isn't charging a big premium for the provenance?

fcloud · May 1, 2010 11:20PM

Its all interpretation. I read it one way you read it another.

Lewy · May 1, 2010 11:25PM

I think that this may be a good example of what you are speaking of:

I actually wound up with it because of the kewl reverse rather than the provenance.

ricko · May 1, 2010 11:42PM

Provenance, like the plastic, is irrelevant to my collection. I realize, to some, this is important. We all collect what interests us as individuals. There are those who collect autographs or beanie babies. To each his own. Cheers, RickO

RedTiger · May 2, 2010 1:19AM

I like coins with a story and provenance provides some of the most interesting stories. Also coins from some hoards (GSA, Redfield to name two) are almost certain to have original coins, not the "faux original" messed with, retoned, messed with again coins, that many collectors seem to like to buy today.

Plastic is one way to solidify the provenance. Take a GSA coin out of its holder, it is difficult to prove that coin was ever in the holder and virtually impossible to get the holdered coin value for it.

As always collect what you like and enjoy the hobby. If provenance does nothing for you, more power to you.

MidLifeCrisis · May 2, 2010 1:31AM

Provenance is simply another aspect of the hobby that some people enjoy. Those of us who do enjoy provenance on our coins have our reasons.

<< I honestly don't care if a coin is Ex-dweeb Ex-eliasbrothers Ex-buddy epstein or Ex-Wife. >>

Apparently you do care...enough to start this thread. What were you trying to accomplish anyway?

If your point was simply to tell us all how you feel, then you've done that. Thanks for sharing.

If your point was to attempt to change the way I and others collect, then you should see my sig line.

Have a nice day.

rays · May 2, 2010 1:35AM

It's just you.

Provenance can be an important determinant to a coin's value.

Consider the description for lot 5 in the Dan Holmes Sale I by Goldberg Sept 6, 2009:

1793 S-3 R3- Chain AMERICA. PCGS graded MS-63 Brown. Levick Plate Coin. Lustrous uniform chocolate brown. A very attractive Chain Cent with choice surfaces and a flawless planchet. Satiny mint frost covers the protected areas on the reverse. There is a touch of friction on the highest points of the portrait while the reverse is virtually pristine and offers choice mint state eye appeal. The only marks are a tiny rim bruise under the 7 in the date and a dull pinpick low on the neck. Late die state, Breen state III, with strong die clashmarks on the obverse and subtle die bulges on the reverse. Called EF45 and tied for CC#6 in the Bland census. Noyes says AU55 net EF45 and tied for CC#6, but he does not list a photo of the coin and may not have seen it other than in a plated auction catalog. Our grade is AU50+, close to AU55. The obverse of this cent was pictured on the Crosby-Levick Plate of 1793 Cents published in the April 1869 issue of the American Journal of Numismatics. PCGS Population 5; 1 in 64 Brown; 1 in 65 Brown; 1 in 67 Brown. DWH #3532.
Estimated Value $150,000-UP.

Provenance: Ex Colin Lightbody, Edward Cogan 12/1866:536-Mortimer Livingston Mackenzie, Edward Cogan 6/1869:624 (the first plated American auction catalog, a very significant milestone as it set a new standard that allowed collectors to better trace the pedigree of significant pieces such as this cent)-L. Bayard Smith-unknown-Arthur L. Gray-Ted & Arthur Brandts (Celina Coin Co.)-T. James Clarke 10/54-R. E. Naftzger, Jr., Abe Kosoff 4/56:4-Stack’s-Dorothy Nelson, Stack’s 2/76:3-Ed Hipps, Steve Ivy Numismatic Auctions 11/78:7-Robert E. Bender-1988 ANA Sale, Heritage 8/88:3-Tony Terranova-Kevin Lipton-Stack’s-unknown-American Numismatic Rarities 7/25/2003:105-Stack’s 7/27/08:1074-Steve Contursi (Rare Coin Wholesalers) 1/2009 (via Chris McCawley).

fcloud · May 2, 2010 1:47AM

I like this one.

Unknown · May 2, 2010 2:09AM

This content has been removed.

TahoeDale · May 2, 2010 2:38AM

I am in Realone's camp on this question.

With all the research now more easily found( online, catalogs, researchers like RWB. images of the 200 year old coin), there is good reason for adding a little more for provenance to the purchase price of a rare classic.

In 200 years, the same may hold true for Mercury dimes, Standing Liberty quarters, Walkers,etc.

And it will confirm the original state of preservation of the coin( at the time of first sale) or show the changes that have occurred.

mrdq · May 3, 2010 7:36AM

I guess I also find it "interesting" but wouldn't pay $.01 more because of it. I'd guess most (at least many) coin collectors are history buffs to a degree and coin provenance certainly is part of the coin's history.

To answer those who wonder why I started this thread.. well.. I guess I am curious about your opinions. Just like anything I guess some would pay more, some would not.

Baley · May 3, 2010 7:41AM

"You bought a LeBaron because it was owned by Jon Voight?"

RYK · May 3, 2010 8:09AM

<< I guess I also find it "interesting" but wouldn't pay $.01 more because of it. I'd guess most (at least many) coin collectors are history buffs to a degree and coin provenance certainly is part of the coin's history.

To answer those who wonder why I started this thread.. well.. I guess I am curious about your opinions. Just like anything I guess some would pay more, some would not. >>

I cannot answer whether I would pay more. How do you define "more"?

More often, the pedigree has drawn me to coins that I may not have otherwise purchased. That does not equate to paying more, necessarily.

joecopper · May 3, 2010 8:25AM

provenance may become much more important given the Chinese issue
Perhaps you do not care if it is buddy shanghai

mrdq · May 3, 2010 9:20AM

<< provenance may become much more important given the Chinese issue
Perhaps you do not care if it is buddy shanghai >>

geez, i must say the chinese issues do send chills up my spine. That's a great argument in favor of documented provenance.

Barry · May 3, 2010 9:25AM

<< I cannot answer whether I would pay more. How do you define "more"? >>

This sounds like a Bill Clintonism.

Gemineye · May 3, 2010 10:58AM

Collectors are a weird bunch of folks..Provenenance and pedigree play an important part in the collecting habit.It can be very desireable for an antique or an old piece of jewelry to be once owned by someone famous.Even letters written by presidents and mint officials are cherished in our collections.
Provenance is part of history...!!!

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · May 3, 2010 12:08PM

I'll take provenance over plastic any day. That being said, A slabbed coin with stated provenance will have a better chance of keeping the history with the coin.

I may pay a bit more for an unusual or interesting provenance. That's one of the real attractions to me in this hobby, the chance that someone famous handled this coin or even thought enough to save it for his/her collection.

Ever wonder if that 1823 large cent sat in Abe Lincoln's cash drawer when he was a store clerk? Sure would be neat to have documented proof, if it did!

mrdq · May 3, 2010 1:09PM

Another great point StubbyMcNumbthumbs.. 19th century provenance v.s. 21st or late 20th century. Lincoln v.s. anyone still alive... I might get suckered into that purchase.

ARCO · May 3, 2010 1:37PM

I agree. However, I like provenance coins because, in many cases, it shows that a very consciencious collector viewed the coin as high caliber and of exceptionally quality...usually. The Benson tone proofs and MS coins as an example. Even though those coins weren't all that high of an MS grade, they were toned so beautifully.

On the flip side, someone linked a photo to a Jules Reiver coin. Of the dozens and dozens of coins from that collection, I have yet to see a single coin that I have liked. In fact, I usually think to myself after seeing one of his coins, "what in the hell was he thinking"?

Ultimately, it feels nice to be part of great numismatic company, but not to the extent of paying through the nose for hero worship.

Tyler

pennyannie · May 3, 2010 1:55PM

I like having a name on my slabs but currently do not own any. I once bought a jules Reiver proof Barber half but the name could not make up for the dog of the coin. It had to go.

I wanted to buy a Elizlberg 1883 n/c liberty v-nickel but they wanted 250 for a ms64. I passed. Now about the best i can do is Suzie lil ol gold hoard.

PerryHall · May 3, 2010 9:53PM

<< I wanted to buy a Elizlberg 1883 n/c liberty v-nickel but they wanted 250 for a ms64. I passed. Now about the best i can do is Suzie lil ol gold hoard. >>

Eliasberg had a couple of rolls of 1883NC nickels that have all been slabbed with the provenance and, in this case, you would be paying a big premium just for the provenance.

Is provenance as superfluous as the plastic?

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