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Ammonia?
MaineJim
Posts: 740 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently picked up a 1900 5 pfennig in change that was covered in grime and green spots. I washed it in warm water and soaked it in acetone for a couple hours. No change. Next I dropped it in ammonia for two minutes and was surprised that it came out without any grime or green spots but still seemed to have it's original luster. I search a lot of rolls so I get a lot of really dirty coins and figured I'd try it on a couple Walkers I pulled from a roll and they seemed to go through the same transformation. A google search turned up some more info on ammonia including this from PCGS-
linky
Would this be considered a dip, cleaning or conservation. Just wondering. The pfennig was definitely heading to the trash but now sits in my world coin collection in a 2x2. I don't really sell any coins but if I did what would the pfennig be classified as?
Maine_Jim
linky
Would this be considered a dip, cleaning or conservation. Just wondering. The pfennig was definitely heading to the trash but now sits in my world coin collection in a 2x2. I don't really sell any coins but if I did what would the pfennig be classified as?
Maine_Jim
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Maine_Jim
As you dipped it and cleaned it, I vote yes.
As was said before, make sure that you rinse the coin completely.
Ammonia is NOT dipping. NO metal is being removed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>I know of at least one dealer that uses sudsy ammonia to clean dirty gold coins and another dealer that uses lemon juice for cleaning dirty gold coins. >>
Ammonia is an alkali (pH 11.6) and lemon juice is an acid (pH 2). Both remove metal, unlike organic solvents such as alcohol and acetone.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day!
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>Make sure to dip it in bleach right after the ammonia dip. Then take a deep whif of the fumes.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day! >>
Mixing a household ammonia product with chlorine bleach will generate chlorine gas---this will cause respiratory problems.
I know from experience---I did exactly this in our garage when I was about 12, and briefly gassed myself.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Ammonia is NOT dipping. NO metal is being removed. >>
Isn't silver reactive with ammonia, maybe forming some type of silver nitrate? TomB could straighten me out, as my chem classes are WAY behind me....
Now lots of things can remove metal from copper coins.
If you google "ammonia coin conservation" you'll find many links. Many are in the metal detecting world. We have to remember that there are many different meanings to "cleaning" coins. Cleaning gunk off of pocket change is much different than preserving, doctoring, or harshly cleaning a proof trade dollar.
Generally, the term "cleaned" has been used to mean hairlined by harsh cleaning but in threads like this I see people using it otherwise and it gets confusing. Not that one or the other is right but it is confusing.
--Jerry
silver chloride areas are the white spots seen on some silver proof coins and American Eagles
back to original question ->Would this be considered a dip, cleaning or conservation?
you could make valid arguments for any of these depending on your perspective, time of exposure, and concentration of ammonia in the solution you are using.
<< <i>I used straight white ammonia. Then rinsed in tap water as that was all I had around. >>
I've always heard that Distilled Water should be used instead of Tap.
<< <i>What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach >>
I've always enjoyed combining the cleaning power of ammonia with the whitening power of bleach!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Ammonia is a cleaner/degreaser, but I don't know that it would react with metals. Maybe it would under some circumstances, TomB might know the answer to that. Ammonia is a strong base and would neutralize acid residues or react with salt deposits that have formed on a coin. Ammonia is infinitely soluble in water, so there is no need to use acetone or alcohol as a secondary rinse, although a secondary rinse with an organic solvent would help in drying the coin.
It does make a fairly good glass cleaner.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Make sure to dip it in bleach right after the ammonia dip. Then take a deep whif of the fumes.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day! >>
Mixing a household ammonia product with chlorine bleach will generate chlorine gas---this will cause respiratory problems.
I know from experience---I did exactly this in our garage when I was about 12, and briefly gassed myself. >>
The first funeral I attended as a kid was for a young adult who had been doing household cleaning which I always suspected included mixing those two ingredients.
<< <i>When rinsing, after a dip, it is best to first use pure alcohol (or reasonably pure), then follow it with running, hot, DI water for two minutes(heat in microwave in glass bowl). This should be followed by a hot air dry. Cheers, RickO >>
You missed a few steps ricko, after the hot air dry you should........soak the coin in 30 weight oil for one hour and pat dry, follow that by a 20 minute rinse in pure ethanol and than set the ethanol on fire (yes with the coin still in it) until it has all burned away.
Now all you have to do is throw the coin away and keep the container.
I think it might tone your coins good chance anyway.
<< <i>No, silver is not reactive with ammonia. I often see people saying "_______ removes metal" and I challenge them to provide the chemical reaction by which silver replaces some chemical constituent and they can't. --jerry >>
Reaction of silver with ammonia
Ammonia precipitates Ag+ as brown/black oxide.
2 Ag+ (aq) + 2 NH3 (aq) + H2O (l) Ag2O (s) [brown/black] + 2 NH4+ (aq)
In excess, ammonia dissolves the precipitate, forming a diamine silver complex.
Ag2O (s) + 4 NH3 (aq) + H2O (l) 2 [Ag(NH3)2]+ (aq) + 2 OH- (aq)
Maine_Jim
This ain't chem lab and there is a lot of misinformation and tongue in cheek info in the thread now. I'd stay away from bleach as it contains HCl which is one of the few chemicals that can attack silver.
I don't believe neutralizing is necessary if rinsing is adequate. Those who rinse in DI water run a risk of not rinsing enough and I think that is the key to failure in dipping and liquid cleaning coins. Rinse for minutes in tap water and then iff you rally think you need to, rinse in DI water. the amount of minerals in a few droplets of water on the coin is not measurable, especially since you'll pat it dry.
Whether ammonia is appropriate really depends on what you're cleaning.
--Jerry
Maine_Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>Make sure to dip it in bleach right after the ammonia dip. Then take a deep whif of the fumes.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day! >>
Mixing a household ammonia product with chlorine bleach will generate chlorine gas---this will cause respiratory problems.
I know from experience---I did exactly this in our garage when I was about 12, and briefly gassed myself. >>
It is a little more complicated than that.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Maine_Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>Make sure to dip it in bleach right after the ammonia dip. Then take a deep whif of the fumes.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day! >>
Mixing a household ammonia product with chlorine bleach will generate chlorine gas---this will cause respiratory problems.
I know from experience---I did exactly this in our garage when I was about 12, and briefly gassed myself. >>
Yup! Been there,done that! 12 years old? de'javu....all over again.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Make sure to dip it in bleach right after the ammonia dip. Then take a deep whif of the fumes.
edited to add: Can't believe I wrote that. What you really want to do is pre-mix the amonia and bleach, then use THAT as the dip!
edited again to add: NOTE: SARCASM! Have a nice day! >>
Mixing a household ammonia product with chlorine bleach will generate chlorine gas---this will cause respiratory problems.
I know from experience---I did exactly this in our garage when I was about 12, and briefly gassed myself. >>
Yup! Been there,done that! 12 years old? de'javu....all over again. >>
Every 12 year old budding chemist has done that, along with setting fire to many things while "testing" the flammability of that box of wooden stick matches.