Bummer of a Friday for someone. Hope it was no one here
kimber45ACP
Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭
0
kimber45ACP
Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭
Comments
Whenever I see the word "questionable" coming from a professional grading co like PCGS, I have to wonder why?
It seems to me there should be no question. It either is or it isn't.
I can understand an amateur coming to this conclusion, but why can't the professionals be more sure on way or the other? or am I misunderstanding the way they are using the term?
<< <i>Whenever I see the word "questionable" coming from a professional grading co like PCGS, I have to wonder why? >>
Probably the same reason you hear the word "alleged" and "allegedly" whenever criminal acts are described on the news, even if being described as it happens on camera, "This man is allegedly pushing over the little old lady and allegedly stealing her marble rye."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
They do make "mistakes" and they have slabbed fake coins before. If I recall correctly, there was one that was actually quite valuable that they had to buy back for a hefty sum.
also it could be a cross between a real/altered surface. It may be SO good but yet altered that they just arent sure. This way, they are not saying its fake-just limiting their liability on the tiniest chance on a very well altered coin...
Best thing to do is follow them around and buy the coins that they don't want to buy!
<< <i>Well, at least they (the collector) are fairly consistent.
Best thing to do is follow them around and buy the coins that they don't want to buy! >>
I was thinking those were yours.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, at least they (the collector) are fairly consistent.
Best thing to do is follow them around and buy the coins that they don't want to buy! >>
I was thinking those were yours.
Don't you have an embattled country to go to?
<< <i>Whenever I see the word "questionable" coming from a professional grading co like PCGS, I have to wonder why?
It seems to me there should be no question. It either is or it isn't.
I can understand an amateur coming to this conclusion, but why can't the professionals be more sure on way or the other? or am I misunderstanding the way they are using the term? >>
I suspect legal CYA plays a role in it.
I hope the submitter didn't buy the 1880 half as a (more costly) business strike.
<< <i>An alternative viewpoint is that the person knew they were sending in dogs; just wanted to get those types of coins into Genuine holders; and the 1894-O made the whole submission a huge winner. >>
True. I thought that too after I looked up the prices of the 2 that made the cut.
<< <i>
<< <i>Whenever I see the word "questionable" coming from a professional grading co like PCGS, I have to wonder why?
It seems to me there should be no question. It either is or it isn't.
I can understand an amateur coming to this conclusion, but why can't the professionals be more sure on way or the other? or am I misunderstanding the way they are using the term? >>
I suspect legal CYA plays a role in it. >>
IMHO... FWIW
I have had two separate occasions...within the past year... when I have resubmitted a coin that had previously been returned as "Questionable Color" ... only to holder on the second submission... same thing with "cleaned" and with "altered surfaces"...
Graders, contrary to some folk's belief system... are not God and they are not perfect... and the grades they assign (or do not assign) are only opinions... I will actually say... "opinions du jour"... and that is my humble opinion...
I will also add that whether I agree with a TPG opinion or don't is not all that relevant to most folks...especially the folks at the TPGs...
...and as to a person's right to have the opinion that any one grading service's opinion is more worthy than another grading service's opinion... or that another service's opinion of a grading service's opinion carries any weight... well... simply put, folks have a right to their opinions... and I respect that...
...but that does not mean I have to respect the opinion... just their right to have it...
<< <i>Graders, contrary to some folk's belief system... are not God and they are not perfect... and the grades they assign (or do not assign) are only opinions... I will actually say... "opinions du jour"... and that is my humble opinion... >>
I hope my post didn't come across as though I think of them as perfect, of course I don't. But, when I'm paying a professional for their grading service, I deserve/expect a firm decision about the coin I'm submitting. Not a questionable conclusion. If I were to receive a refund of grading fees (or partial) I would find it perfectly acceptable if they wanted say it's questionable. Otherwise, what am I paying for? I could come to a questionable conclusion without sending the coin to them.
And the SVDB? Ouch!
Empty Nest Collection
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Graders, contrary to some folk's belief system... are not God and they are not perfect... and the grades they assign (or do not assign) are only opinions... I will actually say... "opinions du jour"... and that is my humble opinion... >>
A kind of newbie dealer at our monthly show just got back some ANACs submissions and he got killed. One of them was a 59-O dollar that came back 'AU55 cleaned'. The coin was comparable to AU58's I've seen in PCGS/NGC holders, excellent strike and luster, rim toning, etc. A few light hairlines in the obv field, as many seated dollars have. Though I generally avoid 'problem' coins, I couldn't pass this up at way back of AU50 Bid.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Looking at those grade results made me instantly think, "purchased out of full-page ads in coin papers and magazines". >>
I had the same thought.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Whenever I see the word "questionable" coming from a professional grading co like PCGS, I have to wonder why?
>>
It's a polite way of saying that it's counterfeit in their opinion. They are most likely correct, but I'm sure a few genuine coins have gotten labeled "questionable authenticity" over the years, so to play it safe, they use that term. In reality, you can probably be 99.99% certain that it is counterfeit.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
<< <i>
<< <i>Graders, contrary to some folk's belief system... are not God and they are not perfect... and the grades they assign (or do not assign) are only opinions... I will actually say... "opinions du jour"... and that is my humble opinion... >>
I hope my post didn't come across as though I think of them as perfect, of course I don't. But, when I'm paying a professional for their grading service, I deserve/expect a firm decision about the coin I'm submitting. Not a questionable conclusion. If I were to receive a refund of grading fees (or partial) I would find it perfectly acceptable if they wanted say it's questionable. Otherwise, what am I paying for? I could come to a questionable conclusion without sending the coin to them. >>
My comment was not directed towards you... as a matter of fact, I feel the same way you do... when I pay a Professional for their "Professional" opinion, I expect more than a "We don't know or are not willing to offer an opinion"... but hey, that's just me.
Some folks, however, are of the mind that what a label says must be gospel... of course, they tend to not be consistant in the application of this belief... yet continue to expound upon it, none-the-less...
to describe a fake. Part of the reason back then was that ONLY the Treasury Department was
legally allowed to make the "counterfeit" determination, and the ANA did not want to run afoul
of the feds.
I do not know if this is still true, but it could explain things.
I had just assumed that if they had a "genuine" designation, they would also have a "not genuine" designation.
IrishMikey's answer makes sense... Who wants to PM Mr. Willis and ask him? (Not me.)
j/k, I asked him to stop by when he has time.
<< <i>Frankly (and I've said this before) I think that when I'm paying for an expert opinion, if they are unable to reach said opinion, good or bad, then I should be entitled to a partial refund, because I didn't get value received. It's like going to a doctor and having him say, "Well, we can't definitively say your appendix needs removed so we won't do it...but we'll charge you for the operation anyway." >>
Doctors charge for this, heck they charge even if the patient dies!
<< <i>
<< <i>Looking at those grade results made me instantly think, "purchased out of full-page ads in coin papers and magazines". >>
I had the same thought.
could be someone not knowledgable enough mis-using eBay
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Looking at those grade results made me instantly think, "purchased out of full-page ads in coin papers and magazines". >>
I had the same thought.
could be someone not knowledgable enough mis-using eBay >>
That's certainly possible but those full page ads in Coin World sell coins to many new collectors from coast to coast.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Gotta wonder about the two coins that "made the grade"... >>
Especially if this is a submission by a coin doctor.
Just a couple of the no-grades making it would be worthwhile.
Lafayette Grading Set
"If these don't grade at PCGS, I'll give you your money back".
1) We are a corporation and are responsible to our shareholders. That means we have to be very careful in everything we say and do. That's why we have lawyers review everything that we publish. This is the era of lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. That's why you read "alleged thief" even when the guy is caught red handed, on camera, with witnesses and is no-doubt 100% guilty. That's just the state of the legal system today.
2) We are paid to offer an expert opinion. That's exactly what we do when we authenticate and grade a coin. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic we have chosen to phrase our opinion as "Questionable authenticity". We are not going to call it "Counterfiet" - see #1. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic, or at least there is enough doubt on our part as to it's authenticity, we will not give it our stamp of approval and guarantee. In our book the authencity is questionable. If that's not plain enough for some people, we can't help them.
3) The Genuine process is in no way a cop out. How quickly people forget. Well, I don't forget hearing complaints when I was dealing with customers who sent a coin in for grading and had it come back in a body bag. They felt cheated that it wasn't in a a holder. Now, with the Genuine service, that coin can 1) be guaranteed authentic, and 2) placed in a holder even if it has a problem such as cleaning or damage, etc. I think that's a great option (you can request a body bag if you like) and so do a lot of very satisfied submittors. There are a lot of nice coins that have a problem (ex. early type that has been cleaned) but now they can be collected in holders, added to Registry sets, and fit in with your entire collection.
There you go.
My Early Large Cents
And I appreciate Mr. Willis stopping by and re-stating the reason for the "questionable authenticity" designation.
Alltheabove76, The error codes just take some time to learn. If I had them, I'd send them to you in a PM so that you could keep a copy. They're really not that hard.....
I have received grades from PCGS that I didn't necessarily agree with, and to some extent I agree with Sea Eagle that they are opinions after all, but let's be realistic. PCGS graders are better at grading than me or the vast majority of the rest of the people on the forum.
Agreed that it is too bad for the person that made the submission but only he knows what these coins look like.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>I have addressed this in other posts but one more time ....
1) We are a corporation and are responsible to our shareholders. That means we have to be very careful in everything we say and do. That's why we have lawyers review everything that we publish. This is the era of lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. That's why you read "alleged thief" even when the guy is caught red handed, on camera, with witnesses and is no-doubt 100% guilty. That's just the state of the legal system today.
2) We are paid to offer an expert opinion. That's exactly what we do when we authenticate and grade a coin. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic we have chosen to phrase our opinion as "Questionable authenticity". We are not going to call it "Counterfiet" - see #1. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic, or at least there is enough doubt on our part as to it's authenticity, we will not give it our stamp of approval and guarantee. In our book the authencity is questionable. If that's not plain enough for some people, we can't help them.
3) The Genuine process is in no way a cop out. How quickly people forget. Well, I don't forget hearing complaints when I was dealing with customers who sent a coin in for grading and had it come back in a body bag. They felt cheated that it wasn't in a a holder. Now, with the Genuine service, that coin can 1) be guaranteed authentic, and 2) placed in a holder even if it has a problem such as cleaning or damage, etc. I think that's a great option (you can request a body bag if you like) and so do a lot of very satisfied submittors. There are a lot of nice coins that have a problem (ex. early type that has been cleaned) but now they can be collected in holders, added to Registry sets, and fit in with your entire collection.
There you go. >>
Don, I completely understand what you're saying here and at the end of the day, I would certainly prefer a coin in a Genuine labeled PCGS slab as opposed to being sent back in a body bag and still raw. I guess my question is, are there any statistics available that would illustrate the quantities or percentages of coins (submissions) that have slabbed as Genuine since the service commenced, and compare that figure with the number of coins (or percentages of submissions) that were bb'd for the same reasons that coins are now put into Genuine holders? I'd be curious as to how these two statistical figures or percentages would relate to each other, if they are able to ascertain?
Here is an example. I knew would Genuine and here is my reason.
1942-D/D (this was the first 1942-D/D Mercury Dime graded by PCGS). This was included in my Mercury Dime Variety set. After about 6 month I was able to find a second so the total graded for this variety is 1 Genuine and 1 AU. There are no other 1942-D/D graded as of now.
Here is an image of the AU55 (or my upgrade).
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Wow, lots o' dreck!
No soup spoon for you, RYK.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I have addressed this in other posts but one more time ....
1) We are a corporation and are responsible to our shareholders. That means we have to be very careful in everything we say and do. That's why we have lawyers review everything that we publish. This is the era of lawyers and frivolous lawsuits. That's why you read "alleged thief" even when the guy is caught red handed, on camera, with witnesses and is no-doubt 100% guilty. That's just the state of the legal system today.
2) We are paid to offer an expert opinion. That's exactly what we do when we authenticate and grade a coin. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic we have chosen to phrase our opinion as "Questionable authenticity". We are not going to call it "Counterfiet" - see #1. If in our opinion we do not believe a coin is authentic, or at least there is enough doubt on our part as to it's authenticity, we will not give it our stamp of approval and guarantee. In our book the authencity is questionable. If that's not plain enough for some people, we can't help them.
3) The Genuine process is in no way a cop out. How quickly people forget. Well, I don't forget hearing complaints when I was dealing with customers who sent a coin in for grading and had it come back in a body bag. They felt cheated that it wasn't in a a holder. Now, with the Genuine service, that coin can 1) be guaranteed authentic, and 2) placed in a holder even if it has a problem such as cleaning or damage, etc. I think that's a great option (you can request a body bag if you like) and so do a lot of very satisfied submittors. There are a lot of nice coins that have a problem (ex. early type that has been cleaned) but now they can be collected in holders, added to Registry sets, and fit in with your entire collection.
There you go. >>
Hi Don, I just wanted to say thank you for the explanation. It makes perfect sense. And of course, I personally like my coins coming back in genuine holders than bb'd.