*Update*PSA 2 '51 Bowman Whitey Ford has arrived
akuracy503
Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭
So for the very first time I've been seriously left confused and let down by a PSA card I purchased.
The reason we all purchase graded cards vs raw is because you usually know what you're getting, in my case it was a wake up call for some education on what variables account for each grade.
In my case I recently purchased a EX 5 1951 Bowman card, I have plenty of the '51s in PSA 5-6 slabs.
The one I just purchased came from a very reputable dealer.
The EX 5 had a one inch crease which broke to the back of the card, not as visible on the front unless you get the right angle to the light. The corners are softer than all the 5's I've ever held and one corner even has a serious indentation from a crease. The registration is perfect, centering is damn near 50/50 on all sides, the surface color is above average but not great.
The card left me scratching my head on how it ever got into a 5 EX slab? I'd feel guilty selling it at this point because I know the next owner will see what I see.
It wasn't a cheap card so I'm not ranting over a few dollars.
Had great eye appeal in a scan but not in person.
Frustrated to say the least!
The reason we all purchase graded cards vs raw is because you usually know what you're getting, in my case it was a wake up call for some education on what variables account for each grade.
In my case I recently purchased a EX 5 1951 Bowman card, I have plenty of the '51s in PSA 5-6 slabs.
The one I just purchased came from a very reputable dealer.
The EX 5 had a one inch crease which broke to the back of the card, not as visible on the front unless you get the right angle to the light. The corners are softer than all the 5's I've ever held and one corner even has a serious indentation from a crease. The registration is perfect, centering is damn near 50/50 on all sides, the surface color is above average but not great.
The card left me scratching my head on how it ever got into a 5 EX slab? I'd feel guilty selling it at this point because I know the next owner will see what I see.
It wasn't a cheap card so I'm not ranting over a few dollars.
Had great eye appeal in a scan but not in person.
Frustrated to say the least!
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Or do I do the dishonorable thing and sell it as is.
I'll provide a scan later this evening if it really matters to anyone, but i'm afraid i'd be giving away the reputable seller.
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Added. If the seller won't accept a return then I would contact PSA to have them look at the card.
In any business, customer service is King... so if they are indeed a reputable dealer... I see no reason you can't return the item for a full refund!
<< <i>The picture clearly showed all the defects you've mentioned. Why did you buy the card?
Added. If the seller won't accept a return then I would contact PSA to have them look at the card. >>
If the picture clearly showed all the defects then I would not have purchased the card.
There is a surface wrinkle/crease that cannot be seen in the scan, the corners were much softer and worn than the picture depicts.
Part of my frustration is that it is the worst example of a early bowman EX 5 that i've held, by far....
I may have to submit it for review....but what will that do for me? besides knock the grade down.
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<< <i>This is my guess as to what he bought >>
We're all family here...no need for discretion or anything...
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My only frustration is with the variance from this example of a PSA 5 to the others I have.
It's quite silly how different they appear upon closer inspection.
The picture does not capture the whole essence of this card.
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I'd like PSA to explain how this qualifies for a EX 5 grade, it's mind boggling.
KBCards - You have a better eye than I do for scans.
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<< <i>gavinlikescards( 25) >>
Because akuracy503 is NARU.
<< <i>
<< <i>gavinlikescards( 25) >>
Because akuracy503 is NARU. >>
akuracy503 is NARU because I was a victim of a scam/hijack a couple years ago.
Your attempt to put me on the spot is fine by me but maybe next time you can provide some discretion.
I did nothing wrong to you or this community but I do like my privacy in collecting.
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Edited to add: I have no intention of opening your PM, so if it is about my birthday present this year, I'd like to have it in hand by August 12th. Thanks
Can we keep this topic on track, anyone send in a card for review just because it was questionable?
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<< <i>I stated a fact, nothing more, nothing less. You seem defensive though. >>
I'm defensive for several reasons because I know where this topic is going.
You can PM me if you want to discuss nonsense, I don't like to put myself or my collection out there publicly, if you had any respect for that type of collector then you wouldnt be violating that space.
If you don't want to come off as a creepy internet guy then you should just stop with what you're trying to do.
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You are a strange dude Nam812.
Wish I could say I respect your opinion but the creepy radar is above my comfort level.
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we let him believe that he's charming in case any of us happen to be in the same place at the same time as him and a vendor is selling beer.
What a downer.
I take it Nick doesnt get invited to many birthday parties, god forbid any children's parties.
now only if I had offensive emoticons from that other board.
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"...... so if they are indeed a reputable dealer... I see no reason you can't return the item for a full refund!...."
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The "reason" might be that sellers should NEVER allow buyers
to substitute their "opinion" for that of the TPG.
Buyers that wanna argue with sellers about overgraded cards
should buy raw cards. They can then simply file a SNAD-claim
and get a full refund.
..............
EX 5: Excellent.
Excellent On PSA EX-5 cards, very minor rounding of the corners is becoming evident. Surface wear or printing defects are more visible. There may be minor chipping on edges. Loss of original gloss will be more apparent. Focus of picture may be slightly out-of-register. Several light scratches may be visible upon close inspection, but do not detract from the appeal of the card. Card may show some off-whiteness of borders. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.
...............................
IMV, the subject card is an overgraded barking dog.
The scans would have caused me to run away.
...................
I would send the card to JO and ask him to take a look at it.
He won't be mad at you for doing so, and if the card should not
be in that slab, he will likely make some reasonable adjustment for
you.
.......
If that doesn't work, try PSA -- see if they think it is overgraded, and if so, give them the chance to make good on it.
If that doesn't work, sell it -- comment that it was reviewed a 2nd time by PSA and they felt the grade was accurate. I'd be OK with this, they looked at it twice and got the same answer both times.
If you want to bypass the seller (he has a solid reputation, but also sells items on consignment from a few "less than reputable" dealers), contact Joe and ship the card back to PSA. If they deem the card is overgraded, they will reholder it in the correct grade and typically reimburse you for the difference. You will need to provide the purchase information. I've had this happen a few times and they've always been willing to resolve it, albeit only once with Joe and the others with Steve Rocchi.
Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I'll read and respond to it even if it isn't an offer to send me a birthday present...
The seller is a large online consignor. This was a consignment item.
The scans were large and show tons of wear. I'm not sure why
the OP would buy a weak looking 5 to begin with. I guess the crease is what threw you on this purchase.
I don't feel sellers (reputable or not), should have to accept returns on graded cards. It's not an approval service. The Ford card in question was graded by a third party professional grader, PSA.
That's who you take up your concerns with.
PSA is usually open to these type of discussions as long as you
treat them with respect, whether you deal with Joe O or a PSA customer service person at a card show. PSA or any grading company for that matter will sometimes overgrade or even undergrade a card at times. It's the nature of the subjectivity of grading.
Hopefully you can get it resolved.
Also if this is your first overgraded card you've encountered or first let down on a graded card, you should consider yourself lucky.
<< <i>Now people selling PSA graded cards have to re-grade the card inside the slab? Give me a break (not directed towards the OP). Your issue is not with the seller, it's with PSA. Large front and back scans, what more can a seller do. There was nothing hidden. >>
I will say that it looks a Solid PSA 4 taking into consideration that it is the first card in the set and perfectly centered.
the seller is not at fault though and this is something that should be taken up with PSA.
This is the reason some coin dealers & other sellers have a 10% restock fee or a flat No returns accepted on TPG items. this is an auction and not an approval service.
this is just my 2 cents worth.
<< <i>
<< <i>I stated a fact, nothing more, nothing less. You seem defensive though. >>
I'm defensive for several reasons because I know where this topic is going.
You can PM me if you want to discuss nonsense, I don't like to put myself or my collection out there publicly, if you had any respect for that type of collector then you wouldnt be violating that space.
If you don't want to come off as a creepy internet guy then you should just stop with what you're trying to do. >>
There are many stalkers out there....
<< <i>Well since you don't want to read my respectful DISCRETIONARY PM.
You are a strange dude Nam812.
Wish I could say I respect your opinion but the creepy radar is above my comfort level. >>
If I got no where with him/her I'd then take it up with PSA.
IMO it has nothing to do with a buyer using a seller as an approval service.
It also makes no difference if it was a consignment or from the sellers childhood collection
or anything in between.
Good sellers take back cards that customers do not like regardless if flaws can be seen in scans.
Steve
Brent completely understood my concerns being a collector himself can be frustrated with the variables when it comes to grading.
Brent said this was part of a set break in which they do a quick and dirty listing with scans and very little in terms of description in text.
Only in regular individual non set listings does he go into detail of description, so in part this is my fault for assuming and not asking.
Brent is willing to sell the card for me in his May auction and prior to that even contact the other bidder in the auction I won for a second chance offer.
He did clarify that he will need to describe the card in detail in his auction listing.
I'm wrapping the card up now and getting ready to ship it off.
You think it'll make a big difference if prewardcardcollector sells it for me vs myself in a BIN for instance?
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"...You think it'll make a big difference if prewardcardcollector sells it for me vs myself in a BIN for instance?..."
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Have him sell it.
BUT, none of my previous comments reflect the false notion
that you should "lose money" on the deal. (Maybe a tiny penalty
for not studying the scan better, but not a big penalty.)
The proposed solution seems to have an open-ended potential
for you to lose money.
The basis for asking PSA to address the issue was to help assure
that you did not lose money.
...........................
NOTE TO SELLERS: While, historically, it has been fairly easy to
defeat an EBAY/PayPal SNAD-claim related to the sale of TPG items,
it is somewhat more difficult to do so today.
I would still dispute such SNAD-claims, but it may not be practical
or prudent for all sellers to do the same.
While it is NOT possible for a correctly described TPG-item to be
SNAD under the PayPal UA, some of the CS-monkeys are reportedly
making bad decisions on the issue:
An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the seller’s item listing description. Here are some examples:
The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller.
The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.
Any such "bad decision" can be overturned on appeal to either PP or via
a BBB-complaint, but it can be labor intensive. More trouble than simply
issuing a refund and blocking the buyer.
The downside of buckling to such "bad decisions" is that eventually all
TPG-sales will essentially become "sales on approval." That defeats the
purpose of offering TPG-items on EBAY. Might as well sell raw cards and
say they are "near mint," if ALL sales are "on approval."
........
..............
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<< <i>sounds like a win - win situation for the original seller... >>
/////////////////////////
It does "sound" that way.
And, maybe it should be.
Unless, TPG-items are going to be sold through an "approval service"
that sellers pay EBAY to facilitate.
<< <i>I would send the card to JO and ask him to take a look at it.
He won't be mad at you for doing so, and if the card should not
be in that slab, he will likely make some reasonable adjustment for
you. >>
This is still the right advice. JO doesn't let problems sit on his desk, he gets things done right away (in my experience). He'll get you an answer right away, and then if he tells you he stands by the grade then you return the card to the seller.
If you just return it, you have to wait for it to sell ( might take a while at that price with a good honest description) or you lose money. Either is bad.
I forgot to mention but Brent is not charging me any fee's except the cost associated with the ebay listing and paypal.
And yes I do expect to lose some dough on this transaction.
Will update on what PSA has to say.
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Said it will take a few weeks and that they will work something out with me, did not say specifically how they would but if the card does indeed grade lower they will not let it leave the place without a new holder and grade.
I will do the right thing here and take my chances with PSA to review and make this card right.
Will be interesting to see how they compensate for my loss if the card does grade lower than the 5 it is now.
Thanks for all the replies and direction, that's why I enjoy this board.
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"...Will be interesting to see how they compensate for my loss if the card does grade lower than the 5 it is now...."
/////////////////////////////
I have a pretty strong suspicion that they won't let
you get burned, if the card is graded wrong.
TPGs benefit when they can get one of their mistakes
corrected.
Send it to Joe and get it done right the first time.
Steve
edited to add: Steve at the BBCE would have refunded cheerfully.
"...Steve at the BBCE would have refunded cheerfully...."
////////////////////////////
True. Many sellers have that policy.
Many big auction houses do not.
........................
An item is NOT SNAD if:
The defect in the item was correctly described by the seller.
The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
..................................................
If EBAY becomes an expensive "approval service" for TPG-items,
there eventually will not be very many TPG-items on the site.
I'll follow up with Brent and see what he says.
It comes down to my fault for not clarifying with him in advance, I had enough trust in the slab and scan to be confident in my purchase, apparently I need a course in reviewing scans on a monitor.
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"...In the case of this auction there was no description of the card itself, since it was offered as part of a setbreak only an overall description wasgiven. I re-read prewardcardcollectors "guarantee" and it sounds like I could just ask for a 100 percent refund although Brent did not mention that in our conversation yesterday...."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
The card was properly described.
PSA 5
That is what was delivered. BUT, it is or likely is, graded incorrectly.
The sellers "guarantee" deals with "misrepresentations" made by
him. There were none that I can find.
THAT does not mean that the corruptniks at PayPal/EBAY will not
"force" the seller to give you a refund. They very well might.
............
In the end this card will be slabbed corectly and will not fool anyone who may purchase it in the future.
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Sounds like we will discuss our options when he receives the card.
It's been sent so i'll follow up with results.
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<< <i>
In my opinion the grade of the card is graded 1 full point too high.. It is very centered and from a distance I can see where one can miss the creases.. The Upper left corner makes the eye appeal distracting along with the scratch on the hat ( the scratch is still in psa 5 guidelines) Minor staining on back of card along with the wrinkles put this card in a Psa 4 holder all day long. I agree the seller did his job of presenting the card both front and back scans. It does seem like he forgot to edit the description... stating that the card presents as a Ex/mt.. I would send to review to Psa so another collector will not be disappointed..Another plus you will be getting some money back and you can then put it back up on ebay in a Psa 4 holder and not feel bad for selling the card.. We all can agree that the card was given a very generous grade.
Ryan
1951 Topps Red backs psa 8 only!
1960 Golden Press Presidential set Psa 8 's - Psa 9's
1961 Golden Press psa 9's
1976 Topps baseball psa 9 Stars
1980 Kelloggs baseball Psa 9's - Psa 10's
1988-1989 Fleer Basketball psa 9's
1988-1989 Fleer Stickers psa 9's
1989-1990 Fleer Basketball psa 10's
1992 Coca-Cola Donruss Nolan Ryan 1-26 Psa 10 only Gpa 9.80++ E-mail Newyork00007@aol.com
<< <i>Just an update guys, I spoke with Brent yesterday afternoon after these posts.
Brent completely understood my concerns being a collector himself can be frustrated with the variables when it comes to grading.
Brent said this was part of a set break in which they do a quick and dirty listing with scans and very little in terms of description in text.
Only in regular individual non set listings does he go into detail of description, so in part this is my fault for assuming and not asking.
Brent is willing to sell the card for me in his May auction and prior to that even contact the other bidder in the auction I won for a second chance offer.
He did clarify that he will need to describe the card in detail in his auction listing.
I'm wrapping the card up now and getting ready to ship it off.
You think it'll make a big difference if prewardcardcollector sells it for me vs myself in a BIN for instance? >>
But "obviously" he didn't offer your money back. In my opinion he is a weasel ebay seller based on that and...
<<< Returns: No Returns Accepted >>>
...whenever I see this on an ebay auction - me no bid.