Is there more inherent value in Plusses and stickers versus the fleeting value of an expert's advice
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
In another thread, there is a debate raging between two excessively prominent board members. One the side, we have one collector who essentially wants it all-- he wants green and gold stickers, he wants Plusses, he wants Secure Plus slabs, he wants expert advice and counsel, and he wants the personal touch on transactions. On the other side, we have another collector who scoffs at stickers, Plusses and slabs, and attends shows commando, meaning that he does not rely on anyone except himself for an opinion about a coin.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think?
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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Comments
<< <i>In another thread, there is a debate raging between two excessively prominent board members. One the side, we have one collector who essentially wants it all-- he wants green and gold stickers, he wants Plusses, he wants Secure Plus slabs, he wants expert advice and counsel, and he wants the personal touch on transactions. On the other side, we have another collector who scoffs at stickers, Plusses and slabs, and attends shows commando, meaning that he does not rely on anyone except himself for an opinion about a coin.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think? >>
Again, I am nonplussed by your query.
Look, Longacre, coins are a lot like hot fudge sundaes. First and foremost, I must like the ice cream (the coin). If the ice cream is no good, I pass immediately. Now, if others want to stop with a plain bowl of ice cream, that's fine with me. Then, there's the topping. I prefer hot fudge (PCGS), others prefer caramel (NGC), and others like moldy strawberries (ICGNACS). If hot fudge is not available, sometimes I will have the ice cream plain, sometimes I will have a caramel sundae, and sometimes I just skip dessert. It depends on how much I like the ice cream, how hungry I am, and what are the flavor choices. Then, there's the whipped cream (the blessing from a trusted friend or dealer). I often have sundaes without whipped cream (the kids seem to consume it before I get my turn
There you have it. Acquiring coins is a lot like a hot fudge sundae.
Smoetimes we have to pay for the fudge, caramel, whip cream, and cherry when all we really wanted was a bowl of good ol' ice cream.
But, an un-attributed CBH, in a plain holder( no extras) will probably be worth more than the attributed one, with all the bells and whistles--Why?
The price you pay, and having the knowledge that you got it for a lot less than the one where all the facts are out-front, wriiten out for you in spades--that it is solid for grade or better.
If you have experience, and on top of that, a real expert in the series helping you, the better coins can be found for the more reasonable price.
Last example of this on a website ( not the coin and dealer involved)
An AU 53 CBH (PCGS, dated before 1820, and scarce in this grade) was originally listed for $5500. It appeared on the site before March 25th. It is now on the site as an AU 53 Plus, with a new price, about 20% more than originally posted.
This will continue to occur multiple times. The dealers and collectors who can grade well, will find the choice coins for grade, and make nice profits, from the start. The herd will pay up now, and hope that they have made a wise choice some time down the line.
The experts advice and counsel is not fleeting. I and others have been clients of the best dealer/experts for years, and will do so for as long as they are around.
Edit: Ryk's ice cream and toppings is a great analogy, but it works better for getting the coin without the frills. While the ice cream with toppings may taste better, and cost more, the coin is the coin is the coin. The label cannot make it taste better.
<< <i>In another thread, there is a debate raging between two excessively prominent board members. One the side, we have one collector who essentially wants it all-- he wants green and gold stickers, he wants Plusses, he wants Secure Plus slabs, he wants expert advice and counsel, and he wants the personal touch on transactions. On the other side, we have another collector who scoffs at stickers, Plusses and slabs, and attends shows commando, meaning that he does not rely on anyone except himself for an opinion about a coin.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think? >>
It seems to me that if one keeps the coin in question constant, the one with the sticker and slab will fetch more upon resale, so therefore is more valuable from that perspective.
However, a relationship with a knowledgeable dealer and the mentoring that can go along with that can be truly invaluable.
Like RYK, I want my sundae and eat it too -- why can't I have both?
and what it is worth, may or may not be accurate. At least with
stickers and +s ,you will now have some basis to make a better,
informed decision ,as to solid and high grade coins as well as
an established set of values for each, in addition to auction records.
Camelot
Unless the expert is going to be by your side when you go to sell it and will ensure you'll get that premium back, I'll take the logos anytime.
I have one recent personal experience on an NGC MS67 pop top seated coin worth low 5 figures. The coin has failed to cross on 4 occasions over 6 years (4 x $100) yet it CAC'd the first time through with lots of nice adjectives mentioned by the CAC graders. At the time in fall of 2008 one of them was thinking NGC MS68. I showed the same coin to DH and he concured that it met PCGS MS67 standards. I also showed the coin to half a dozen top former graders who specialize in type and all loved the coin and wanted to buy it. At the time I turned down some attractive offers for it. Yet when placed in auction with only the CAC label it failed to reach 50% of it's value just 1 yr earlier. Had the coin been PCGS it would have surely been able to sell for 30-50% more. On the NGC scale the coin would rate a 67.6 to 67.9 as it is far superior to what they have usually holdered as MS67. At the time I bought this I turned down a dozen other NGC67's that I felt were all 66+. Since that time I've seen about 2 dozen MS67 NGC coins of this general type and only a couple were close at all. In fact I had the means and intent to buy every legit NGC 67 I ran across....yet I only found 1 in years of looking. This seach was equivalent to trying to find a legit NGC MS66 or 67 bust half. We all know how impossible that would be.
So in the end, without the PCGS holder and superlatives, this coin couldn't compete properly in the current market. And as far as the expert eyes/counsel of the world class dealer who sold it to me, they were at the same auction and either passed on the coin or were only willing to pay enough to rip it. So truly this is a case where the coin is in the wrong holder and won't perform until it's in the more desireable and liquid PCGS plastic. More than likely I'll crack the coin down the road since it's the only reasonable option left......and get the PCGS 67 with CAC. Hey, a + sign would be nice too. I've seen most of the other 6 PCGS 67's for type/grade and I prefer this one. But I'd still rather have the one with all the extra logo's.
While it's nice to have a coin that is all there and that you like as well, what matters more than ever today in this rugged bear market are the logos and holder. A dealer's expertise and counsel is fleeting at best. There's no guarantee they will even be in business when you are considering selling. And a dealer's financial situation may preclude them from even giving you a fair offer. So make mine PCGS with CAC and preferably a "Plus." Anyone buying a raw high dollar MS/PF coin from their "prominent" dealer is asking for problems. Even a 10-20% miss rate will put a hurting on one's collection/investment. In this down market it's sad but true that NGC coins have moved a step closer to raw. They may need something else to compete at the higher end with PCGS+ (ie an NGC+ CAC might be equivalent to PCGS CAC.). NGC CAC is no longer good enough imo. It worked ok in a good bull market, but not today. This is not unlike the 1993 to 2003 era when NGC coins were looked upon much more critically vs. PCGS. But a strong bull market can do wonders for shortening such gaps.
An NGC CAC type coin is still bringing approx 10-15% less than the exact same coin in PCGS CAC outerwear. While it was true that sharp-eyed buyers were willing to buy those coins for 95-100% of PCGS levels 2 years ago, there are basically very few left today willing to do that unless the coin is clearly superior to the typical PCGS coin seen. If everyone were trading raw coins again then the expert dealer's opinion would count for something. And there would likely be another expert who would agree as well....hence 2 people making a fair/competitive bid for your coin. But that's not today's slabbed market. When I buy again it will be coins whose grade I agree with, that are also CAC'd and are more than likely residing in the most liquid slab available.
roadrunner
<< <i>In another thread, there is a debate raging between two excessively prominent board members. One the side, we have one collector who essentially wants it all-- he wants green and gold stickers, he wants Plusses, he wants Secure Plus slabs, he wants expert advice and counsel, and he wants the personal touch on transactions. On the other side, we have another collector who scoffs at stickers, Plusses and slabs, and attends shows commando, meaning that he does not rely on anyone except himself for an opinion about a coin.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think? >>
What fears me is that you might be describing a situation where one cannot see the forest for the trees. Personally I find it most important, to use your word, excessively so, to concentrate on the coin itself. I have seen CAC'd coins that I would not buy, ditto plus coins, and I have seen and bought coins that I love that did not CAC.
Said prominent board member ought to justify the merits of said coin itself instead of stickers and pluses and whatnot. If he is not qualified to do so, he should work with a qualified dealer to save his own skin, IMO.
The coin with the plus and the sticker is usually going to be the more valuable one "seconds after the transaction closes" because the market currently values pluses and stickers more than undocumented opinions. However, the coin that is vetted by a truly expert adviser is probably going to be the better coin and, in the long run, the more valuable coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
roadrunner
Well, I'm not a Pogue.
I never said that finding a "truly expert adviser" was going to be easy.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>In another thread, there is a debate raging between two excessively prominent board members. One the side, we have one collector who essentially wants it all-- he wants green and gold stickers, he wants Plusses, he wants Secure Plus slabs, he wants expert advice and counsel, and he wants the personal touch on transactions. On the other side, we have another collector who scoffs at stickers, Plusses and slabs, and attends shows commando, meaning that he does not rely on anyone except himself for an opinion about a coin.
I am not saying that one is better than the other, but it got me thinking. Is there more inherent value in stickers and Plusses, as compared to the more fleeting value that good dealer counsel represents, even one who is the leader in his field? At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer? What do you think? >>
Again, I am nonplussed by your query.
Look, Longacre, coins are a lot like hot fudge sundaes. First and foremost, I must like the ice cream (the coin). If the ice cream is no good, I pass immediately. Now, if others want to stop with a plain bowl of ice cream, that's fine with me. Then, there's the topping. I prefer hot fudge (PCGS), others prefer caramel (NGC), and others like moldy strawberries (ICGNACS). If hot fudge is not available, sometimes I will have the ice cream plain, sometimes I will have a caramel sundae, and sometimes I just skip dessert. It depends on how much I like the ice cream, how hungry I am, and what are the flavor choices. Then, there's the whipped cream (the blessing from a trusted friend or dealer). I often have sundaes without whipped cream (the kids seem to consume it before I get my turn
There you have it. Acquiring coins is a lot like a hot fudge sundae.
I like to eat cake while I'm looking at coins, where do I fit in?
It's entirely possible you are in the <1% category. My comment only identified one such advisor....to the Pogues. There are around 10,000 dealers out there. So that means we're starting with a number probably no larger than 100. If I get the Pogue's advisor on a J6P commission rate, then I'll pass on some of those stickers and logos.
roadrunner
<< <i>Look, Longacre, coins are a lot like hot fudge sundaes. First and foremost, I must like the ice cream (the coin). If the ice cream is no good, I pass immediately. Now, if others want to stop with a plain bowl of ice cream, that's fine with me. Then, there's the topping. I prefer hot fudge (PCGS), others prefer caramel (NGC), and others like moldy strawberries (ICGNACS). If hot fudge is not available, sometimes I will have the ice cream plain, sometimes I will have a caramel sundae, and sometimes I just skip dessert. It depends on how much I like the ice cream, how hungry I am, and what are the flavor choices. Then, there's the whipped cream (the blessing from a trusted friend or dealer). I often have sundaes without whipped cream (the kids seem to consume it before I get my turn
There you have it. Acquiring coins is a lot like a hot fudge sundae.
The only thing that could possibly make that analogy better is if you were talking about Five Guys
Possible, but not likely. Still, I prefer to make my decizion and to live with the consequences.
Edited to add: Pls forgive my Blackberry typos. Also, it's not that I think the dealers from whom I buy are not capable; it's just that I collect in an area and at a level that doesn't necessarily encourage their best effort.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You are the first responder that seems to understand what I thought was straight-forward in my reply. Cost!
Example: 1804 Early $5 in MS63. Guides are around $32,000, and if the coin is all there, PCGS, CAC approved, maybe even plus-- it might bring 40,000.
In a PC slab, with no frills, maybe 29,000 to 31,000.
What if it were the same identical coin? Which one would you want? This hypo-thetical coin was in a no frills PCGS slab in 2005, before CAC, plus, etc. Why not try to find the coins that haven't been upgraded, and a dealer who can help you do so?
<< <i>Dan(bidask)--
You are the first responder that seems to understand what I thought was straight-forward in my reply. Cost!
Example: 1804 Early $5 in MS63. Guides are around $32,000, and if the coin is all there, PCGS, CAC approved, maybe even plus-- it might bring 40,000.
In a PC slab, with no frills, maybe 29,000 to 31,000.
What if it were the same identical coin? Which one would you want? This hypo-thetical coin was in a no frills PCGS slab in 2005, before CAC, plus, etc. Why not try to find the coins that haven't been upgraded, and a dealer who can help you do so? >>
In this example, the stickers, plus, etc wouldn't be worth $10,000 but, if the coin was that nice, it's unlikely to sell at grey sheet wholesale prices.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>At the close of a transaction, if a collector is left with simply a raw-slabbed coin without a Plus or a sticker, but which was purchased with the advice and counsel of a prominent dealer, is that coin as valuable seconds after the transaction closes compared to a coin with a Plus and a sticker, but which was purchased by a no-name dealer?
The coin with the plus and the sticker is usually going to be the more valuable one "seconds after the transaction closes" because the market currently values pluses and stickers more than undocumented opinions. However, the coin that is vetted by a truly expert adviser is probably going to be the better coin and, in the long run, the more valuable coin. >>
How likely is it that the expert adviser would be willing to put his opinion in writing and sign and date it, since he likely doesn't have his sticker to speak for him?
<< <i>It would all depend on the coin. >>
Of course, but you overlook the fact that not all collectors/dealers are equally qualified to judge/opine on the coin's merits or lack thereof. Joe Collector may know nothing about you or your expertise, but chances are he knows what CAC is and you might find it easier to sell Joe a coin with the bean than without it.
In a PC slab, with no frills, maybe 29,000 to 31,000.
What if it were the same identical coin? Which one would you want? This hypo-thetical coin was in a no frills PCGS slab in 2005, before CAC, plus, etc. Why not try to find the coins that haven't been upgraded, and a dealer who can help you do so?
If I understand the question, you're wondering if it's a good idea to pay an expert a modest fee to help you locate and pick up $10,000 bills that just happen to be lying on the floor. If you were in the expert's position, would you accept the job?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The point is they don't KNOW that the coin will get plussed until it does. They, or you, can speculate but are they going to guarantee the plus, and the $40k. Never.
Or if an expert KNOWS that the coin will bring $40k is it realistic to think that they will help you buy it for $31k plus "a modest fee". Absolutely not.
The point is that it's all speculation until it happens. You assume the risk.
<< <i>Let's all go to the Dairy Queen instead!
DQ is not real ice cream it is ice milk - which once covered with hot fudge, nuts, whip cream and a cherry you might not notice.
Sound like any encapsulated coins you've seen?
<< <i>Dan(bidask)--
You are the first responder that seems to understand what I thought was straight-forward in my reply. Cost!
Example: 1804 Early $5 in MS63. Guides are around $32,000, and if the coin is all there, PCGS, CAC approved, maybe even plus-- it might bring 40,000.
In a PC slab, with no frills, maybe 29,000 to 31,000.
What if it were the same identical coin? Which one would you want? This hypo-thetical coin was in a no frills PCGS slab in 2005, before CAC, plus, etc. Why not try to find the coins that haven't been upgraded, and a dealer who can help you do so? >>
<< <i>Example: 1804 Early $5 in MS63. Guides are around $32,000, and if the coin is all there, PCGS, CAC approved, maybe even plus-- it might bring 40,000.
In a PC slab, with no frills, maybe 29,000 to 31,000.
What if it were the same identical coin? Which one would you want? This hypo-thetical coin was in a no frills PCGS slab in 2005, before CAC, plus, etc. Why not try to find the coins that haven't been upgraded, and a dealer who can help you do so?
If I understand the question, you're wondering if it's a good idea to pay an expert a modest fee to help you locate and pick up $10,000 bills that just happen to be lying on the floor. If you were in the expert's position, would you accept the job? >>
Not relevant, since most everybody knows what $10Kin cash is, but not everyone can give an expert evaluation of a coin. Possibly an expert dealer could help you by keeping you from overpaying by $10K.
I know what $10K in cash is, but I doubt that most here could find a coin with $10K of upside in it out of a box of 100 coins. I know I couldn't, but that is largely because I have no interest in the series where such a coin is likely to be found.