Seated quarter scarcity: Frisco vs. Philly

fastfreddie · April 14, 2010 3:53AM

San Francisco minted quarters generally have a lower mintage than their Philadelphia counterparts and are generally believed to be more scarce. Mintages for Philly's overall are higher with exception of 1867, 1868, and 1869.

My question is, for example, why would an 1868 Frisco quarter be more scarce than the Philly version? Mintage records are 96k and 29k respectively. Common theory is that the Frisco quarters saw more use/commerce and did not survive. I do not understand this as most of the US population in 1868 was East of the Mississipi. Were Frisco coins shipped to the East coast too? And even so, they still made over 3x the Philly output. Assuming the mint records are accurate, and all else equal, the Philly quarters for these three years should be much tougher (expecially in higher grades) than their Frisco counterpart. Yet the population reports show higher pop's for Philly in 1867 and 1868 but not 1869.

Maybe it's just a function of hoarding and popularity as most San Francisco quarters are seen as more desirable that those minted in Philadelphia. Maybe there were more East coast collectors in the day that saved mint releases - as the population report would again support (at least in 1867 & 1868). Thoughts...comments...

LanLord · April 14, 2010 3:58AM

Just a possible scenario: Since the east had the lions share of the population, and at that time, collecting by mintmark was not yet a part of the hobby, more philly coins were pulled from circulation earlier than "S" mint coins.

Walkerguy21D · April 14, 2010 4:21AM

I kind of doubt the number of collectors saving mint state quarters in 1868 would have much bearing on the present population of surviving numbers, other than maybe a few dozen. Not that I was alive back then or anything....I'm under the perception most of the collectors back then ordered proofs, other than those collecting pennies from pocket change etc.
I know that a lot of our later seated coinage (probably those made in the East) was sent to Canada, where it did not circulate much, and was later repatriated in large quantities. Also maybe the 'Panic of '73' led to widespread hoarding (or at least limited circulation) of silver coins, so may be this accounts for some higher grade coins from the late 1860's?

MrObvious · April 14, 2010 4:54AM

I think if you read some of the history of what was going on in the late 1860's you will find that silver coins were being hoarded in the east (as opposed to being used in commerce). Conversely, on the west coast silver coins were used extensively in commerce. The transportation and communication issues of the time made the eastern and western portions of the country almost like two different countries. The outputs of the two mints were treated very differently by the public in the mint's respective geographic areas.

Billet7 · April 14, 2010 6:32AM

I think I understand what you are asking.

I would consider the 1868 to be more rare than the 1868-S (in all grades,) but the certified population for the 1868 is higher than the 1868-S. This is because very few of the low grade 1868-S get certified (of which many exist.) If you take a look at the distribution of certification, you will find that most of the certified 1868's are above XF in grade (38 out of 47 are at least XF) They get certified because they are higher grade, and more valuable. More San Francisco quarters exist, mostly in the AG-VG range, but they payoff to certify them is much lower, so they don't get sent in.

If you start talking about high grade vs. low grade, then I would say the 1868-S is much more rare than the 1868 counterpart, because very few high grade coins exist. As has been stated it is because the Frisco quarters were circulated heavily, and the P mint's were not.

I find the same thing with certification reports for the 1880's coins. They have high numbers because most of the coins that exist are high grade, AND there are very few of them that exist. A larger percentage get certified because they are higher grade. I would wager that there are more seated quarters from the 1880's certified vs. surviving populations than any other era of seated quarters (except the ultra rarities and the Huge O 1854) It is actually suprising how few of these coins are in low grade. A low grade 1884 is SUPER RARE, as opposed to just being a rare 1884. Kind of backwards I know!

I hope this helps.

partagas · April 14, 2010 7:00AM

Billet nailed it out the ball park. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Look at the auctions to back up what Billet said as well. The high grade Frisco coins will be moon money compared to the philly counterparts.

roadrunner · April 14, 2010 7:17AM

My question is, for example, why would an 1868 Frisco quarter be more scarce than the Philly version? Mintage records are 96k and 29k respectively....assuming the mint records are accurate, and all else equal, the Philly quarters for these three years should be much tougher (expecially in higher grades) than their Frisco counterpart. Yet the population reports show higher pop's for Philly in 1867 and 1868 but not 1869.

The Philly coins of 1868 and 1869 are rarer than their S mint counterparts. In fact I place the 65-s, 68-s, and 69-s coins in the category of most available S mints of the 1860's. But I wouldn't hang my hat on the pop reports unless you are looking at only unc coins and particularly MS63 and above. Few long time collectors have yet bothered to send in their circ 1868 and 1867 P mints. Ask Ray (lathmach) how many of his are slabbed. One downside to the Philly coins is that relatively "cheap" proof versions exist to satisfy demand and to some extent limit the price of the very desireable VF-AU circs. There is no such issue with an S mint seated quarter.

The 1867-s is a different animal than the 65-s, 68-s and 69-s. I've followed that date since 1973 and it just doesn't show up, especially above F-VF. For some reason it's survival rate is much lower than the others above, including the 1867 P. Survival rates are all that count and sometimes we just can't make 100% sense why one date survived in quantity and another one didn't. I've always felt that very few S mint coins made their way out from the west where they were either heavily used or immediately melted, sent out of the country, etc. Considering that a legit gold standard was not in effect from 1861-1879 might explain why some coins of that era didn't survive, esp during the war and the years immediately following it. Gold went briefly to $165/oz in 1869 which gives an idea of some of the monetary issues of that time. In 1873 the quarter's weight was slightly increased from 6.22 grains to 6.25. Maybe that caused people to want to get rid of the lighter 1853-1872 quarters as quick as they got them (money velocity = coin wear) even if the net change was a mere 1/2%. The pre-1853 seated quarters were a heft 6.68 grams and explains why few of them didn't survive subsequent meltings in the early 1850's despite some pretty hefty mintages. The 1851-0 and 52-0 with mintages close to 90,000 each were probably melted soon after issuance.

While the 69-s quarter is somewhat available, the 71-s and 72-s are not. Whatever problems occured in that time frame continued right up until 1872. The 1872-s quarter has one of the highest mintages of all the 1857-1872 S mints yet is the rarest or no worst than tied for rarest of all S mint quarters (60-s is a worthy competitor with 64-s and 71-s not that far behind). The 1901-s would barely make the top 20 of the rarest S mint quarters.

The 55-s to 59-s coins are all available if you don't mind lower grade (G-F) pieces as the norm. But it seems odd that the tough 60-s is then followed by 2 easier years, then comes the tough 64-s, followed by the much easier 65-s, then two toughies in the 66-s and 67-s, followed by 2 much easier ones in the 68-s and 69-s, followed again by 2 real toughies in the 71-s and 72-s. I can't explain the why, only that it's what my experiences have shown over the past 35 years. In looking at that 1863-1870 Philly run their rarity/extant pops seems to more closely mirror their mintages. But just like with the S mints in 1871-1872, that thumbrule goes out the window. The mintages in Philly in 1871 and 1872 ramped up sharply to 119K and 183K respectively yet those dates are every bit as rare as half of the earlier dates. For some reason P/S quarters in 1871 and 1872 did not survive in proportion to their stated mintages. Mintage figures? They are only a starting point at best. The tiny 20,000 mintage of the 64-s and 30,000 of the 71-s tend to demonstrate their toughness. Yet the fairly available 65-s at 41,000 is a head-fake compared to the 56,000 of the super tough 1860-s.

roadrunner

rhedden · April 14, 2010 7:38AM

The "S" mint quarters of the 1850s and 1860s had a rough life. They circulated extensively, incurred lots of damage, and were frequently lost outdoors. Just try to imagine San Francisco and northern CA during the gold rush years... barely civilized. The attrition rate was high for many (but not all) dates, which were probably the years where 100% of the coins were released for commerce. Roadrunner's description is accurate- the 1867-s, 1871-s, and 1872-s simply don't exist in any great numbers, and most survivors are damaged or of low grade. I have damaged examples of 1867-s and 1872-s in my own "complete" set, but I'm happy I even have those dates.

Billet7 · April 14, 2010 11:34AM

<< Billet nailed it out the ball park. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Look at the auctions to back up what Billet said as well. The high grade Frisco coins will be moon money compared to the philly counterparts. >>

bidask · April 14, 2010 12:01PM

What your thoughts on the 1866 s ?

Frozenink · April 14, 2010 12:41PM

There is a great story in the April 2010 Numismatist about the value of the dollar in the west compared to the east. But in a letter from Mark Twain, they stated that the smallest form of circulating coinage out west in Salt lake City 1860's was .25. This would probably explain why the high grades are moon money.

Gary

partagas · April 15, 2010 12:18AM

What your thoughts on the 1866 s ?

Ah my favorite year and favorite coin of that year. This is a coin that is available in AG- to Fine with a little patience and money. In fact Brian Greer has a nice on on his site right now.

However, this coin just doesn't show up in VF or better. Especially in XF or higher. If you can find an nice example in VF30 or higher buy it. As you never know when you could get another chance.

I have a super nice XF40 that was once in Larry Briggs Collections, it is now slabbed by PCGS. The highest graded coin is a 66 and there are a handful of others MS coins.

SkyMan · April 15, 2010 12:28AM

Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions.

Mowgli · April 15, 2010 12:36AM

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

Skyman - you be right.

"Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars."

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 3:06AM

<< What your thoughts on the 1866 s ?

Ah my favorite year and favorite coin of that year. This is a coin that is available in AG- to Fine with a little patience and money. In fact Brian Greer has a nice on on his site right now.

However, this coin just doesn't show up in VF or better. Especially in XF or higher. If you can find an nice example in VF30 or higher buy it. As you never know when you could get another chance.

I have a super nice XF40 that was once in Larry Briggs Collections, it is now slabbed by PCGS. The highest graded coin is a 66 and there are a handful of others MS coins.

>>

I LIKE IT VERY MUCH!!

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 3:12AM

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

My humble appologies...where should I send the check? I see it's OK to use many (MANY) acronyms in the forum but heaven forbid to shorten up a proper name like San FRANcisco. Here's mine ... it's Detroit not Deeetroit. Got it?

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 3:31AM

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

Again, my humble appologies to you and your life partner. (kidding)

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 3:36AM

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

We wouldn't want others to confuse SF with Sofia, Bulgaria would we? Or 'speculative fiction' of which there is a lot of on the forum.

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 3:54AM

<< 

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

Skyman - you be right.

"Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars." >>

OK Norton the 1st.

BillJones · April 15, 2010 4:31AM

19th century American coin collectors did not pay any attention to mint marks until perhaps the 1890s. They were interested in having one coin per year. In the 1890s a man named Heath published an article about mint marked coins in The Numismatist. After that interest in mint marks and their rarity for some years started to take off.

As for the rarity of San Francisco mint pieces, I dare say most coin collectors lived on the east coast in cities like Boston, Phildelphia and New York. Given that I imagine that they had the best access to Philadelphia mint coins.

WTCG · April 15, 2010 4:42AM

<< 

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

Again, my humble appologies to you and your life partner. (kidding) >>

There was a higher population center in the east so chances are if there were coins saved they would more likely to be coins from the East and saved in the East.

I guess Skyman beat me to it in his post...

And about the "life partner" part, it takes one to know one doesn't it?

fastfreddie · April 15, 2010 6:09AM

<< 

<< 

<< Having been born/raised in the 'burbs of Philly, and living near SF for many years, there is only one thing I gotta' say... DON'T CALL IT FRISCO!!!

San Fran and SF are considered OK contractions. >>

Again, my humble appologies to you and your life partner. (kidding) >>

There was a higher population center in the east so chances are if there were coins saved they would more likely to be coins from the East and saved in the East.

I guess Skyman beat me to it in his post...

And about the "life partner" part, it takes one to know one doesn't it? >>

Ahh..you got to love the forum...complete political correctness, a sense of humor, plus only true statements ever uttered...not.

roadrunner · April 15, 2010 11:40AM

The 1866-s makes the top 6 toughest S mint quarters if one considers total extant populations. Here's my list in the order I think they should be ranked. The first 4 could certainly be rearranged somewhat but I feel they are a notch tougher than the last 2. To me the 72-s is easily the toughest with the next 3 almost being a toss up. Though with surviving pops from around 125-200 pcs it's almost splitting hairs. The tiny mintage of the 64-s always got it more recognition than the others. It was the same way between the 66-s vs. the 67-s which explains why the 67-s wasn't considered by many to be essentially as tough as the 66-s until the past decade or so. If one was considering only grades of XF or higher than the 59-s and 61-s would slip themselves pretty high into this listing.

1872-s
1871-s
1860-s
1864-s
1866-s
1867-s

roadrunner

Billet7 · April 16, 2010 2:06PM

Thanks Roadrunner, that's a great list...about what I would have expected, but a nice confirmation of what seems to show up in the market as far as S-mint quarters go.

ElmerFusterpuck · April 16, 2010 2:35PM

Just out of curiousity, where would the 73-S fall on the list? I have a nice PCGS XF-40 example and it seems like you nver see that date.

GrumpyEd · April 16, 2010 3:26PM

I try to put low mintage coins like that in perspective.

That entire mintage of 1868-P quarters was less than a dozen $25 boxes of modern cents.

partagas · April 16, 2010 11:28PM

Just out of curiousity, where would the 73-S fall on the list? I have a nice PCGS XF-40 example and it seems like you nver see that date.

Erik, I don't have my notes with me but the 73-s is a challenging coin for higher grades. XF40 is about where the prices start climbing.

The 73-s would be behind the entire run of 55-S to 72-S in scarcity. Although it is next in line in my experiences.

roadrunner · April 17, 2010 4:29AM

My surveys indicated that the 73-s is tougher than several of the dates in the 55-s to 72-s run. There is no question that the 55-s is by FAR the commonest of the 1855-s to 1875-s San Francisco date run. It's a common date in all grades combined but just happens to have the Big S mintmark on the back to act as a decoy. In fact all the "common" Philly dates from the 1840's are much tougher than the 55-s in all grades combined. The only S mint dates that are certainly more common than the 55-s are the 76-s and 77-s. At best it's at the very tail end of the second tier...and not that much scarcer than 88-s or 91-s which are 3rd tier dates along with 1876-s and 1877-s. Of course in higher grades things change.

Of the 2nd tier dates I'd place the 69-s at the lead with the 65-s on its heels. They both lag far behind the 67-s which ends the 1st tier. But after the 69-s and 65-s the next half dozen 2nd tier coins are pretty interchangeable (56-s to 59-s, 61-s, 62-s, 68-s) I'd place the 73-s easily in with that group. Everyone probably ranks them differently but there is not a lot of difference between them. When XF or better is considered that's a totally different ranking.

The 73-s is a worthy coin that happens to get lost at the tail end of a fairly low mintage run of quarters. It's extant population is probably on the order of 250-400 pieces which explains why you don't see too many of them as the parade of 20th century "key dates" parade by. Any problem-free VF-AU early S mint is a tough coin to find.

roadrunner

Seated quarter scarcity: Frisco vs. Philly

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