Anyone have ICG guarantee experience?
mumu
Posts: 1,840
OK I have posted about this coin before. Long story short I purchased it on the BST here. The marks were described to me as breaks in toning due to rubberbands. I accepted it as such at the time and was too inexperienced to tell otherwise once in hand. However since then, with the purchase of a good loupe and having it looked at it has been determined that it is damage into the metal, in all likelyhood of the post mint variety. This happened long after the ability to return the coin to the seller and I do not believe that it was sold to me knowingly as a damaged coin(additionally the seller did make offers long after purchase to settle in what I thought was very fair fashion but i decided to take the lesson learned and kept it). Anyway as you can see the damage is in 3 main areas, the upper cheek, across the forehead and across to the star, and then also under LIBER.
I have contacted ICG via email over the effect of their guarantee and supplied the picture to them. They told me that a true determination would have to be made with the coin in hand, however the girl showed the coin pics to someone in the grading department and their intial thoughts were that this "problem area" was most likely factored into the grading.
I have since tried to sell the coin and I'm looking at about a $1000 hit on it from what I paid. I am not happy about that but that is my inexperience and overenthusiam of the time. Very noobishly the coins year of 1805 has special significance to me and other than this damage area i absolutey love the coin. Unfortunately some circumstances have created the need to sell it but at a $1000 hit I really feel like I should look into what my options are in terms of the guarantee. But my gut tells me to expect to send it in and be told that they stand by the grade.
Any thoughts?
I have contacted ICG via email over the effect of their guarantee and supplied the picture to them. They told me that a true determination would have to be made with the coin in hand, however the girl showed the coin pics to someone in the grading department and their intial thoughts were that this "problem area" was most likely factored into the grading.
I have since tried to sell the coin and I'm looking at about a $1000 hit on it from what I paid. I am not happy about that but that is my inexperience and overenthusiam of the time. Very noobishly the coins year of 1805 has special significance to me and other than this damage area i absolutey love the coin. Unfortunately some circumstances have created the need to sell it but at a $1000 hit I really feel like I should look into what my options are in terms of the guarantee. But my gut tells me to expect to send it in and be told that they stand by the grade.
Any thoughts?
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Comments
and they told me grade stands
many coins are down 20% from a couple years ago
those marks kind of look like in planchet to me
do you feel coin is graded too high or a damaged coin that should not be in a graded slab?
<< <i>I did it once - cost me another$50 or so and they had the coin for a few weeks
and they told me grade stands
many coins are down 20% from a couple years ago
those marks kind of look like in planchet to me
do you feel coin is graded too high or a damaged coin that should not be in a graded slab? >>
I feel the coin is properly graded and sans those marks ay even exhibit some higher grade details. The reverse wear on E Pluribus Unum and the clouds is in line with this die variety and not lower grade wear as once might think, according to my research since owning the coin so I have no issue at all with the grade and feel it is PQ as a 40, again sans the potential damage. What would be the best way to verify planchet damage and what effect would that have on the vlue of the coin? thanks
Franklin-Lover's Forum
-Paul
I think it is perhaps a lamination or as pmac said, a retained strike-thru.
Ben
I like the draped bust half. Very pretty.
Lance.
I realize your situation is different so good luck.
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You probably don't like the look of the coin, and perhaps you have tried to sell it and have not gotten good offers. If that's the case it's unfortunate, but I don't see this as an issue where the grading company was at fault. It would be best to learn from the experience and not make the same mistake again.
<< <i>I would try getting it into a PCGS slab. If PCGS BB's it for damage you can then take it up with ICG. Sorry, I have no experience with their guarantee. >>
Why would ICG be obligated to agree with PCGS's opinion? Also, once it's cracked out, all bets are off.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Interesting there's doubling only on the star where the "rubber band" hit. >>
That is a good observation. Hard to tell in photos, but it looks like "extra metal" or there is a raised bit on the star, but not elsewhere.
Edited to add: There more I look at it, the more I think it is not some kind of rubber band toning issue. That raised bit on the star is key.
If the consensus is that ICG would do nothing, as I suspected, either because it is a planchet flaw or a rubber band marking, then I think I am going to crack it observe it more closely for sure and decide whether its toning or metal damage and then get it into a PCGS holder at some point down the line.
As for the star doubling I believe from what I read that it is one of the markers for this variety as the star was redrawn on the die.
Overall I love the coin, whether I overpaid for it or not. And if it is rubber band markings then I do not mind them as much even though I agree they are not rpetty and detract from the coin's eye appeal. But I like the rest of the coin enough that eye appeal overall is better than the crusty browns ive seen from this series. The luster on this one looks lke its from an AU coin, and I know its been cleand but still in terms of eye appeal i love it. I am just trying to ascertain whether I have damaged goods of the post mint variety and if it is what I should do with it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So I agree with Perry.
Good luck with your decision.
Well let me restate the main idea of my thread with more concise wording that is also more precise to your advice.
If the marks are post mint damage, then I am unhappy with the coin and wonder if ICG should be involved.
If they are rubber band marks as was presented to me, then I am satisfied with the coin. But wonder if preservation is an option
If they are lamination then it's a grey area and I ask for the best advice.
Resell value is secondary to identifying what exactly I have here as I also don't want to misrepresnt it at sale time even if the truth costs me more money. This may seem petty to most big shots here but for me this coin represents my biggest purchase and figuring out the truth might mean the difference between a half months rent or a full months rent in an emergency(I was laid off from TWO jobs).
If you do decide to go the NCS route, please post before and after pics for us to view.
Very nice for a EF40 and dipped/retoned dose not make a BB...
If it's a retained strike-thru or flaw, very possible and would increase the value...
Sorry you have to sell, Wish I had the Funds...
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
Why in the world would ICG agree to holder cleaned coin at the next lower grade? ICG staff appears to be WAY out in left field on their quality control submissions. I tried, and I learned the hard way.
My recommendation, is to never attempt to use the ICG guarantee. I will never again buy any ICG coin, and that is a definite!!!
<< <i>I don't think I would crack out the coin. Put it of Ebay and sell it or consign it to Teletrade. >>
I know my first post was long but putting it on EBAY as is, which i have already done, is a $1000 loss. And i would rather keep it at such a loss even though I could really use moving it at 75% what I paid. I had it up as a BIN with a make offer and got no offers. Not even the standard 100$ offers. And when I let it run to natural auction i got to 850$ top bid. I was willing to take 1400$ at the time. I am now thinking of just keeping it. But I still want to know what these markings are. I am trying to convince myself that regardless of what I do, cracking it out is OK.
<< <i>From my personal experience, the ICG guarantee is a joke. Even after repeated crossover rejections from NGC and PCGS due to cleaning, three times total on at least two coins, ICG offers only a TINY dollar amount of satisfaction for their guarantee. ICG still offered to slab the cleaned coins at the next lower grade, but their dollar amount for the grade differential was only about 10% of the difference in Numismedia dollar amounts. Believe me, my numbers are correct. Since, on three attempts with PCGS/NGC, the coins have been determined to be cleaned, I expect ICG to buy me out, and at a price using the Numismedia values. I already spent well over $100 submitting to PCGS and NGC, on each of these coins, by submitting three times each .
Why in the world would ICG agree to holder cleaned coin at the next lower grade? ICG staff appears to be WAY out in left field on their quality control submissions. I tried, and I learned the hard way.
My recommendation, is to never attempt to use the ICG guarantee. I will never again buy any ICG coin, and that is a definite!!! >>
That is one of the lessons I have taken from this. I will never buy an ICG coin sight unseen and even then I wont pay more than 50% pcgs stated value.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would try getting it into a PCGS slab. If PCGS BB's it for damage you can then take it up with ICG. Sorry, I have no experience with their guarantee. >>
Why would ICG be obligated to agree with PCGS's opinion? Also, once it's cracked out, all bets are off. >>
I didn't said ICG should accept PCGS's opinion. Merely that it was something to go on. And I use the term "BB" loosely. There is no reason you need to lose the slab for an opinion from PCGS.
Lance.
<< <i>I don't care who you are, that there is a Pretty Coin...
Very nice for a EF40 and dipped/retoned dose not make a BB...
If it's a retained strike-thru or flaw, very possible and would increase the value...
Sorry you have to sell, Wish I had the Funds... >>
From what I'm seeing a planchet flaw might as well be post mint damage when that dramatic and attention grabbing. But what are some signs to look for a retained strike-thru ?
if that is a retained strikethrough, it would increase value for an error collector I would guess
you need to look under magnification at those lines
and see if the surface has any indentations or breaks compared to rest of coin
and how the metal filled the die
a retained strike through wuld be like a chunk of metal that was on the coin and then squeezed between dies and pushed into coin planchett and then stayed there
so you are looking at
1) Post mint damage (PMD) - would be like scratches or tooled
2) retained strike through
3) rubber band toned
my experience with bands cauzing dark areas, is a dark mushing area - similar to the top of the coin
am not sure if I have seen small distinct lines
<< <i>those are sharp lines on the star and right behind nose
if that is a retained strikethrough, it would increase value for an error collector I would guess
you need to look under magnification at those lines
and see if the surface has any indentations or breaks compared to rest of coin
and how the metal filled the die
a retained strike through wuld be like a chunk of metal that was on the coin and then squeezed between dies and pushed into coin planchett and then stayed there
so you are looking at
1) Post mint damage (PMD) - would be like scratches or tooled
2) retained strike through
3) rubber band toned
my experience with bands cauzing dark areas, is a dark mushing area - similar to the top of the coin
am not sure if I have seen small distinct lines >>
Can a strike through cause those indentations for part of the area and not for others. If you look at the marking across the cheek for example you will notice that it starts to fade as it gets into the hair. Under magnification there apeears to be break in the metal but fades as it gets into the hair where there is still a ghosting of whatever it is but the metal is no longer broken.
<< <i>I think the whole underlying issue here is never buy problem (or potential problem) coins. >>
I disagree. In some series, almost every coin for sale has at least a potential problem. The totally original, 100% problem free coins will be priced at 3x over the average coins that may have minor issues. It must be nice to collect "hypothetical" coins like some forumites do. Either that or they are so novice, that they don't see any problems, where the more experienced have questions.
In the real world, in some series, most of the coins offered have flaws. To avoid all of them, means virtually never buying any coins and/or having virtually unlimited funds. Well, have fun with that approach, it isn't for me. Avoiding the major flaws, I'll agree with, but minor flaws are part of the real world.