Should there be a "Coin Dealers licences?"

keets · February 28, 2010 9:00AM

There is already a business license requirement. Why add more?

IMHO it is insufficient because it isn't enforced. i think that random enforcement would be better than another form of licensing.

Connecticoin · February 28, 2010 9:00AM

<< Yes. My barber needs a license before he is allowed to give Longacre a coiffure. Given the dollar values involved withe coins, and the "financial" aspect of them (although we all know that dealers do not give financial advice), there should be license requirements, a test, ethics rules, and mandatory CLE each year. Given that coins are a financial market, perhaps the SEC should regulate dealer activities. I am open to other recommendations. >>

Oppressive regulation will kill the Coin Market faster than collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1989.

keets · February 28, 2010 9:05AM

things are already in place for the regulation of coin dealers, it is simply a case of the ANA and PNG being lame organizations which don't really wish to police themselves. to that end, dealers shouldn't need an organization to police them, they should do it among themselves. the only problem with that is too much cronyism.

percyb · February 28, 2010 9:21AM

Great idea!

SeaEagleCoins · February 28, 2010 9:32AM

<< We require licences for other professional services, why not Coin Dealers?

Would it help clean up some of the shady dealers out there? >>

Sure...it works real well for Wall Street... the Banking industry... the Insurance industry... and of course, all liscensed Auto Mechanics are above board and above reproach... let us not forget Lawyers... none of them are shady... and then there's Real Estate agents... no shadiness there... heck, the list is endless... (edited to add Accountants... can't forget them

)

Regulation... that is always the answer... cleans up everything all nice and tidy...

So let's see how this will work...

We can administer a series of tests...

Ethics... by Andy Lustig

Grading... by TDN

Hygiene... by Longacre

Coolness factor... by CCU

Numismatic History... by QDB

Political correctness... by WTCG

Proper use of spell check... by Legend

etc etc etc...

Me? I'll just sit back and laugh

Jeez... the lack of common sense displayed by so much of humanity... it simply astounds me...

RWB · February 28, 2010 9:37AM

I suspect what the OP was leaning toward was independent competency certification available to coin dealers. Rather than a certification to do business, these are standards of competency in a specific field or expertise. To do this would require a set of standards that, when met, would permit a dealer to advertise themselves as a “Certified Numismatic Professional” or some such title. It might be based on the PNG business standards, but be much more extensive in numismatic knowledge and other areas the would increase public confidence. Since this would imply a knowledge – based certification, not a membership-based one, standards would have to be carefully designed.

FYI, most state laws affecting businesses are enacted due to abuses within certain trades and to derive revenue by enforcing minimal standards of conduct. Professional licensing is a direct result of failures of self-regulation.

(Another option is embedded RFI chips...)

SeaEagleCoins · February 28, 2010 9:42AM

<< I suspect what the OP was leaning toward was independent competency certification available to coin dealers. Rather than a certification to do business, these are standards of competency in a specific field or expertise. To do this would require a set of standards that, when met, would permit a dealer to advertise themselves as a “Certified Numismatic Professional” or some such title. It might be based on the PNG business standards, but be much more extensive in numismatic knowledge and other areas the would increase public confidence. Since this would imply a knowledge – based certification, not a membership-based one, standards would have to be carefully designed.

FYI, most state laws affecting businesses are enacted due to abuses within certain trades and to derive revenue by enforcing minimal standards of conduct. Professional licensing is a direct result of failures of self-regulatiion.

(Another option is embedded RFI chips...) >>

Refer to post above yours...

Based on the tone of your post, I might guess that your drink of choice would be a Dry Martini, not shaken nor stirred...

TwoSides2aCoin · February 28, 2010 9:44AM

Licensed dealers can fill gold with putty, just like lawyers are able to lie through their teeth. So if the glove don't fit, maybe the shoe will.
But it's all okay with a bonafide piece of paper. Conspiracy from the top is a disgrace to democracy.

JCMhouston · February 28, 2010 9:44AM

I can't believe there is anyone that actually thinks government licensing and oversight fixes anything. Bernie Madoff - licensed and heavily regulated, just one example. My barber needs a license, what good does that do, he can still screw up a haricut on any given day.

Fairlaneman · February 28, 2010 9:50AM

From all of the replys in this thread this is what would really help the industry. These people need to get a set and keep the set.

"I would like to see PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ANA/PNG become a lot more choosy about who they accept as one of their registered dealers. The requirements currently used, in my opinion, are not nearly strict enough. I would even like to see a criminal background check required, along with a credit check."

Ken

IGWT · February 28, 2010 9:55AM

Truth be told, it's the "unregulated" aspect of collecting that fits the personalities of many collectors and dealer alike. Edited to add: And any license to cut Longacre's hair is nothing more than a license to steal.

lkenefic · February 28, 2010 10:02AM

<< 

<< Real Estate also has liabilities associated with it. Testing for radon gas, structural integrity, furnace...ect, ect... These issues aren't associated with coins. >>

Coins also have liabilities associated with it. Counterfeits, overgraded, tooled, ATed, repaired, misrepresented, harshly cleaned, etc.......these issues aren't associated with houses. Like I said---there are many coins that are worth more than most houses. >>

...but if my faulty furnace blows up, I'm dead. I'm not buying too many more coins (regardless of their price) if I'm dead. My AT'd Morgan dollar might cause sever eye strain, and a bit of heartburn when I realize how much money I've squandered, but I'll still be alive.

Yes, there are a number of coins worth more than ~$230k (the median cost of a house these days) but most coins are sold for far less. I fail to see the comparison.

rld14 · February 28, 2010 10:32AM

<< 

<< We require licences for other professional services, why not Coin Dealers?

Would it help clean up some of the shady dealers out there? >>

Sure...it works real well for Wall Street... the Banking industry... the Insurance industry... and of course, all liscensed Auto Mechanics are above board and above reproach... let us not forget Lawyers... none of them are shady... and then there's Real Estate agents... no shadiness there... heck, the list is endless... (edited to add Accountants... can't forget them

)

Regulation... that is always the answer... cleans up everything all nice and tidy...

So let's see how this will work...

We can administer a series of tests...

Ethics... by Andy Lustig

Grading... by TDN

Hygiene... by Longacre

Coolness factor... by CCU

Numismatic History... by QDB

Political correctness... by WTCG

Proper use of spell check... by Legend

etc etc etc...

Me? I'll just sit back and laugh

Jeez... the lack of common sense displayed by so much of humanity... it simply astounds me...

>>

I like that. But Bear will be in charge of refreshments

RWB · February 28, 2010 11:06AM

Based on the tone of your post, I might guess that your drink of choice would be a Dry Martini, not shaken nor stirred.

The "tone" of my post is C# in an A major7 chord.

Actually, single malt Scotch over subzero ice is preferred - one can't get good gin any more.

ocon4008 · March 1, 2010 11:31AM

The question invokes a deep philosophical problem: are coin dealers professionals? Many here do not understand what the term "professional" means; I have asked many here to educate themselves on this subject. I can say for sure that my profession - Land Surveying - faced this crisis 50 to 60 years ago; we decided we were professionals and bounded together to create professional societies and licensing boards. By requiring licensing we were able to drive the unsavory characters out of our profession. It took awhile, but it has made a major difference.

Professional licensing boards are created to protect the safety and welfare of the general public. They are comprised of licensed professionals and members of the general public. They create a "minimum" set of standards professionals must follow. They create penalities for violating these rules.

How many dealers will doctor a coin knowing if they get caught they can go to jail for 2 to 10 years?

How many dealers will knowingly sell a counterfeit coin if they get caught they can go to jail for 2 to 10 years?

How many vest pocket dealers will it put out of business?

I do not understand why legitimate dealers are not screaming to get this started. Men who have spent their lives learning this profession. How many of you scream bloody murder when some vest pocket dealer who has not bought a table a coin show ruins one of your deals?

Educate yourseleves; licensing boards are controled by the licensed professionals and do alot of good.

The down side is they can become political; something that has to be watched.

JMHO.

Gemineye · March 1, 2010 11:28PM

<< We require licences for other professional services, why not Coin Dealers?

Would it help clean up some of the shady dealers out there? >>

Giving a licence to the sellers on the shop-at-home networks that sell coins is laughable..They will tout their bogus paper approved nonsense as more as ..Licence..to steal...!!!

roadrunner · March 2, 2010 1:11AM

Having licensing certainly didn't prevent all the abuses and regulatory lapses that went on with the various agencies during the housing and financial crisis. If the FED, SEC, CFTC, FHA, Fannie, Freddie, Congress, etc. couldn't keep order over their mess why do we think we'll be able to do it with coins? There will never be a shortage of unethical coin dealers who are members in good-standing of numerous prestigious numismatic organizations. Some of the worst coin dealers have the most impressive list of credentials. What would it prove? It still comes down to personal integrity and ethics.

But with states needing tax money more than ever no doubt they will be looking into new ways to tax numismatics and PM's.

roadrunner

Walmann · March 2, 2010 1:17AM

Coin cops checked this dealer's coppers and resulted in an arrest.

leothelyon · March 3, 2010 2:21PM

It could work but I think alot of inventory would need to pass some kind of inspection before licences were issued. What good is a licence if a tally of ones products aren't unaccount for. And we would be in need of a suggestion box where the lowlifes can be reported selling outside of a high and low percentage of the value of any inspected product.

Leo

BigE · March 3, 2010 2:35PM

Of course they should be licenced, how else are you going to prove they had their shots when they bite someone---------------BigE

leothelyon · March 3, 2010 2:44PM

<< Of course they should be licenced, how else are you going to prove they had their shots when they bite someone---------------BigE >>

They could segregate the bourse floor.

Leo

Should there be a "Coin Dealers licences?"

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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Should there be a &quot;Coin Dealers licences?&quot;

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

Leave a Comment

Should there be a "Coin Dealers licences?"