I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough?
Interesting reply, polite and direct but it does open up a possibility. I kind of like your approach.
I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough? >>
I think you'll get your letter of guarentee which is possibly the policy anyway if this incident is anything to go by.
It sounds like you sold it raw. If you did, then you are ultimately responsible for it as far as it being authentic. "The trail led back to you" as the originator of a "counterfiet" piece. I'd check the terms of the consignment contract.
If you sold it in a TPG then tell them to pound sand.
Disregarding the contract that the consignor agreed to, what terms did the auction catalogue impose upon the bidder to resolve problems in a timely manner? TD
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ?
No, because that would make it easy to identify the auction company. But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. Frankly, I don't know what it is, and I'm not surprised that the TPG couldn't figure it out. >>
Something that esoteric, unless sold with some extraordinary authenticity guarantee (more than the fine print in the auction agreement) should be considered by the buyer to be basically "as is". Assuming that nothing was hidden, nothing was misrepresented, nothing was intentionally vague. If they had figured out a way to "authenticate" it and determined it's value to be 10x what they paid, I'm sure you wouldn't have heard from them. Otherwise, this is just like the upgrade game except they can return the coin years later if it doesn't "upgrade".
Disregarding the contract that the consignor agreed to, what terms did the auction catalogue impose upon the bidder to resolve problems in a timely manner? TD
<< <i>Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ?
No, because that would make it easy to identify the auction company. But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. Frankly, I don't know what it is, and I'm not surprised that the TPG couldn't figure it out. >>
Can you tell us what the auction description was ? What the buyer thought it was i mean... cos i cant help wondering how long it might take to render a passable replica of said item in lead and not in impeccable condition.Sure its a way out there idea ...but
<< <i>Can you tell us what the auction description was ? >>
That's something I was thinking, as well, though like the pictures it may not be feasible in keeping the name of the company quiet. There are some items--and it sounds like this is exactly one of them--that should be described with multiple possibilities of what the item is, as Andy described here. It's not only being as honest as possible when there is uncertainty, but it is recourse for the seller as they admit that the item may in fact not be a genuine product of the purported mint.
You cannot quite authenticate it. The grading company cannot quite authenticate it. The owner of the item questions its authenticity.
Without affirmative authentication, and with a customer issue, it seems to me that the auction house might well feel that its policy has been violated.
Take it back and resell in a different venue? Seek out professional authentication for a bizarre item? (might be hard to do!) Research for an upcoming article? >>
I agree with the above. Andy, I think it would have been best if they at least had a conversation with you prior to returning it. On the other hand you run less of a risk on a item like this if you do the leg work of authentification beforehand. My guess is you have more knowledge on this item, whatever it may be, than most and may know how best to demonstrate authenticity.
Andy, I also agree with you that the timing isn't really the issue. You're on the hook if it isn't real. The person you bought it from is on the hook to you if it isn't real.
This brings us to the opportunity. That being to enlighten the masses on this particular piece by writing an article on it. In doing so you will do threethings. First, you will educate. Second you will demonstate expert knowledge on the subject matter, while at the same time demonstrating authenticity. And the monetary carrot to you is in doing do, may create greater interest in the item so the next time around at auction, there may be more action leading to a higher price.
Without having read most of the replies this far.....
First, I would contact the auction house and let them know what you plan to do, as outlined below. I'd also request that they relay the information to the buyer. And if you are OK with your identity as the seller being known to him, ask that he be invited to contact you, so that you can talk to him directly. He might or might not have interest in doing so.
Next, I would try to communicate with whichever grading company deemed the coin to be of "questionable authenticity" and find out upon what basis they made their call.
If, after doing that (or being unable to do so), I were not satisfied, I would get an opinion from another highly respected grading company. If they concur with the first one, case closed - you should reimburse the auction company. But if they certify the coin as genuine, let the auction house (and, if applicable, the buyer) know and see what they say.
To those who said that after such a long period of time it's tough luck for the buyer and/or the auction house - if the coin is counterfeit, it shouldn't make any difference how long it took to find out. And if anyone said that, based on the opinion of one grading company it is tough luck on the consignor, I don't believe that is automatically the case, based on the language in the consignment agreement.
<< <i>Without having read most of the replies this far.....
First, I would contact the auction house and let them know what you plan to do, as outlined below. I'd also request that they relay the information to the buyer. And if you are OK with your identity as the seller being known to him, ask that he be invited to contact you, so that you can talk to him directly. He might or might not have interest in doing so.
Next, I would try to communicate with whichever grading company deemed the coin to be of "questionable authenticity" and find out upon what basis they made their call.
If, after doing that (or being unable to do so), I were not satisfied, I would get an opinion from another highly respected grading company. If they concur with the first one, case closed - you should reimburse the auction company. But if they certify the coin as genuine, let the auction house (and, if applicable, the buyer) know and see what they say.
To those who said that after such a long period of time it's tough luck for the buyer and/or the auction house - if the coin is counterfeit, it shouldn't make any difference how long it took to find out. And if anyone said that, based on the opinion of one grading company it is tough luck on the consignor, I don't believe that is automatically the case, based on the language in the consignment agreement. >>
Submit it to another respected TPG for authentication and see what happens. If it is rejected by the second TPG refund the auction house its money and go after the dealer who sold it to you.
or ...
Just refund their money and move on if you don't want a fight with the dealer who sold it to you.
From your description I'm not surprised it couldn't be authenticated by a regular TPG. I would reach out to a 3rd party expert on that particular coin. One of Stack's consultants or a specialty firm for that country and go with what they say, communicate with the auction firm to see if they accept your expert's opinion. Also, isn't the PNG guarantee on authenticity lifetime? I hoping that's longer than a year.
If the dollar amount is question is high enough; and if a workable solution can not be devised and agreed to by the interested parties; then my suggestion is to take all of the documentation [particularly the consignment agreement] and other information about the coin and the transaction(s) regarding the coin and consult with a lawyer who:
1. is honorable and ethical;
2. is knowledgable and has expertise in contracts and commercial law in that state whose law would apply to any dispute [look at the wording of the consignment agreement];
3. can review the facts and law and give you both legal advice [who has a strong case, who has a weak case, what legal proceeding could or should be filed by or against you]; and practical advice [how much things will cost if you get involved in a lawsuit or arbitration; and what impact such a proceeding, whether you win or lose, would have on your reputation and on future business transactions with your opponent and/or with others in the industry who would hear about what is going on].
After getting advice from a lawyer, make you own decision about what to do based upon your own evaluation of where you are at, where you want to be and how to get from point A to point B in a manner that best benefits you.
If you need a lawyer, hopefully you will find one who can provide the above. If you do and with his or her advice you can get where you want to be, the lawyer has done you a great service adn has truly earned his/her fee.
<< <i>If you guaranteed authenticity, it is up to you to prove that is it authentic. How did you determine that it is authentic? Can you get another expert to refute the questionable authenticity that this other firm came up with? >>
I would think this a prudent route to go...
Even on issued US Coinage the authenticity can be murky sometimes. I had a coin deemed not authentic by a top TPG only to later accept the evidence from multiple experts on the pieces authenticity and reverse their prior decision and they slabbed/graded the coin. I'm sure this is a very rare occurence though.
Disregarding the contract that the consignor agreed to, what terms did the auction catalogue impose upon the bidder to resolve problems in a timely manner?
Virtually all major auction firms - including this one, I'm sure - require a notice of the desire to return a coin within 30 days or less. However, the 30 day (or less) limit does not apply with respect to authenticity, as coins are guaranteed authentic forever.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-- But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. --
What did you (as opposed to the auction house) purport the item to be at the time of consignment?
What did you (as opposed to the auction house) purport the item to be at the time of consignment?
It would be on the consignment inventory - whether I wrote it up or they did is probably irrelevant - as "Country/Date/Denomination Struck in Lead". No mention would have been made with respect to original vs restrike, because none of us were qualified to make that determination.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It would be on the consignment inventory - whether I wrote it up or they did is probably irrelevant - as "Country/Date/Denomination Struck in Lead". No mention would have been made with respect to original vs restrike, because none of us were qualified to make that determination.
It sounds like the TPG agrees with everyone's assessment that it's questionable. Isn't it OK to sell questionable items?
1. The auction house acts as your agent in selling consigned coin and under the consignment agreement you the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the coin;
2. If #1 is accurate, exactly to whom are you making the guaranty? Your agent the auction house or the buyer of the coin at the auction or both?
3. Is the buyer of the coin making a claim against your agent, the auction house, asserting that the authenticity of the coin is in doubt [with the auction house seeking indemnification from you based upon the language in the consignment agreement that you guaranty authenticity]; or is the buyer of the coin making a claim directly against you? If the buyer is making a claim against you directly [and not the auction house] what is the basis of the buyer's claim against you. If the claim is being made by the buyer against the auction house and not against you, what is the basis of the buyer's claim against the auction house?
4. Does the consignment agreement, or any of the materials issued by the auction house advertising the auction of the coin in question have any wording/provisions which cover, either generally or specifically, the situation that has arisen? If so, are any of the wording/provisions in the consignment agreement or advertising materials vague/abiguous, thus being capable of multiple interpretations?
5. Who prepared the consignment agreement and the advertising materials [my assumption is that the auction house prepared same, possibly with the help of its own in house or outhouse lawyers].
The above questions and answers thereto would shed light on the potential legal issues that could arise if one side or the other dragged the dispute into court or arbitration. At a minimum, the outcome of this situation may lead to the auction house revising its consignment agreement and/or advertising materials to include additional wording/provisions which cover this exact situation (or which rewrites existing wording/provisions covering the point which are vague and ambiguous]. This rewrite/revision process is something that insures continued [nay lifetime] employment for lawyers.
1. The auction house acts as your agent in selling consigned coin and under the consignment agreement you the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the coin;
Correct.
2. If #1 is accurate, exactly to whom are you making the guaranty? Your agent the auction house or the buyer of the coin at the auction or both?
My understanding is that I made the guaranty to the auction house. (In France, it would be the other way. But this deal was in the USA.)
3. Is the buyer of the coin making a claim against your agent, the auction house, asserting that the authenticity of the coin is in doubt [with the auction house seeking indemnification from you based upon the language in the consignment agreement that you guaranty authenticity]; or is the buyer of the coin making a claim directly against you? If the buyer is making a claim against you directly [and not the auction house] what is the basis of the buyer's claim against you. If the claim is being made by the buyer against the auction house and not against you, what is the basis of the buyer's claim against the auction house?
The buyer's claim, valid or not, is against the auction house. His basis for the claim is weak. Ultimately, I think his recourse is at the auction firm's discretion.
4. Does the consignment agreement, or any of the materials issued by the auction house advertising the auction of the coin in question have any wording/provisions which cover, either generally or specifically, the situation that has arisen?
Not specifically.
5. Who prepared the consignment agreement and the advertising materials [my assumption is that the auction house prepared same, possibly with the help of its own in house or outhouse lawyers].
You assume correctly.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
You have to refund an auction company if a coin is either called counterfeit or stolen, no time limit.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
You have to refund an auction company if a coin is either called counterfeit or stolen, no time limit. >>
You sell me a Morgan dollar. Two years later I decide I don't like it. I can just call it counterfeit and get a refund?
5. Who prepared the consignment agreement and the advertising materials [my assumption is that the auction house prepared same, possibly with the help of its own in house or outhouse lawyers].SanctionII
For the record, I have personally known some "outhouse lawyers".
<< Regardless of how you feel about it personally. legally, you probably wouldn't have a choice. >>
You raise a valid point however more details would have to come to light.
The terms of the auction or the sale make a difference. The auction company bears a portion of the liability as well. If it's safe to assume they are staffed with competent Numismatists/ graders & the coin was determined (by said Auction House) to be non - problematic and later proved to be, then they bear some of the burden of liability as well.
Without benefit of any more detail - why was said coin acceptable for right at a year and now it isn't?
There are many mitigating factors here & many unknowns but common sense would have it that said buyer should have reached a decision in a much more timely fashion. Too many unknowns & this reeks.
Nobody keeps a coin for an entire year then decides he no longer wants it unless he's gotten in a financial pickle and just wants "out"! How the venue can force a return upon you after the amount of time that passed has to be unprecedented. I think we all would need to know a lot more before trying to come to a fair judgement.
Sorry - but this smells and that's all there is to it - for now! I would want some answers from this so-called PITA buyer.
<< <i><< Regardless of how you feel about it personally. legally, you probably wouldn't have a choice. >>
You raise a valid point however more details would have to come to light.
The terms of the auction or the sale make a difference. The auction company bears a portion of the liability as well. If it's safe to assume they are staffed with competent Numismatists/ graders & the coin was determined (by said Auction House) to be non - problematic and later proved to be, then they bear some of the burden of liability as well.
Without benefit of any more detail - why was said coin acceptable for right at a year and now it isn't?
There are many mitigating factors here & many unknowns but common sense would have it that said buyer should have reached a decision in a much more timely fashion. Too many unknowns & this reeks.
Nobody keeps a coin for an entire year then decides he no longer wants it unless he's gotten in a financial pickle and just wants "out"! How the venue can force a return upon you after the amount of time that passed has to be unprecedented. I think we all would need to know a lot more before trying to come to a fair judgement.
Sorry - but this smells and that's all there is to it - for now! I would want some answers from this so-called PITA buyer. >>
There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
I agree. TD
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough?
Interesting reply, polite and direct but it does open up a possibility. I kind of like your approach.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>My reply to the auction company:
I can't accept the return. While there's no question that I would take the coin back if it was determined to be counterfeit, that's not what happened here.
But in the spirit of fair play, before I return the coin to you, I'll give you one other option. If you'll give me a written letter irrevocably guarantying that I may return for a full refund any item I ever purchase from your company if a grading service refuses to authenticate it, I'll accept this return now.
Fair enough? >>
I think you'll get your letter of guarentee which is possibly the policy anyway if this incident is anything to go by.
It sounds like you sold it raw. If you did, then you are ultimately responsible for it as far as it being authentic. "The trail led back to you" as the originator of a "counterfiet" piece. I'd check the terms of the consignment contract.
If you sold it in a TPG then tell them to pound sand.
Good luck.
TD
<< <i>Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ?
No, because that would make it easy to identify the auction company. But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. Frankly, I don't know what it is, and I'm not surprised that the TPG couldn't figure it out. >>
Something that esoteric, unless sold with some extraordinary authenticity guarantee (more than the fine print in the auction agreement) should be considered by the buyer to be basically "as is". Assuming that nothing was hidden, nothing was misrepresented, nothing was intentionally vague. If they had figured out a way to "authenticate" it and determined it's value to be 10x what they paid, I'm sure you wouldn't have heard from them. Otherwise, this is just like the upgrade game except they can return the coin years later if it doesn't "upgrade".
--Jerry
TD
Very good point as well.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ?
No, because that would make it easy to identify the auction company. But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. Frankly, I don't know what it is, and I'm not surprised that the TPG couldn't figure it out. >>
Can you tell us what the auction description was ? What the buyer thought it was i mean... cos i cant help wondering how long it might take to render a passable replica of said item in lead and not in impeccable condition.Sure its a way out there idea ...but
<< <i>Can you tell us what the auction description was ? >>
That's something I was thinking, as well, though like the pictures it may not be feasible in keeping the name of the company quiet. There are some items--and it sounds like this is exactly one of them--that should be described with multiple possibilities of what the item is, as Andy described here. It's not only being as honest as possible when there is uncertainty, but it is recourse for the seller as they admit that the item may in fact not be a genuine product of the purported mint.
<< <i>The following conditions appear to be true:
You cannot quite authenticate it. The grading company cannot quite authenticate it. The owner of the item questions its authenticity.
Without affirmative authentication, and with a customer issue, it seems to me that the auction house might well feel that its policy has been violated.
Take it back and resell in a different venue? Seek out professional authentication for a bizarre item? (might be hard to do!) Research for an upcoming article? >>
I agree with the above. Andy, I think it would have been best if they at least had a conversation with you prior to returning it. On the other hand you run less of a risk on a item like this if you do the leg work of authentification beforehand. My guess is you have more knowledge on this item, whatever it may be, than most and may know how best to demonstrate authenticity.
Andy, I also agree with you that the timing isn't really the issue. You're on the hook if it isn't real. The person you bought it from is on the hook to you if it isn't real.
This brings us to the opportunity. That being to enlighten the masses on this particular piece by writing an article on it. In doing so you will do threethings. First, you will educate. Second you will demonstate expert knowledge on the subject matter, while at the same time demonstrating authenticity. And the monetary carrot to you is in doing do, may create greater interest in the item so the next time around at auction, there may be more action leading to a higher price.
Andrew
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
First, I would contact the auction house and let them know what you plan to do, as outlined below. I'd also request that they relay the information to the buyer. And if you are OK with your identity as the seller being known to him, ask that he be invited to contact you, so that you can talk to him directly. He might or might not have interest in doing so.
Next, I would try to communicate with whichever grading company deemed the coin to be of "questionable authenticity" and find out upon what basis they made their call.
If, after doing that (or being unable to do so), I were not satisfied, I would get an opinion from another highly respected grading company. If they concur with the first one, case closed - you should reimburse the auction company. But if they certify the coin as genuine, let the auction house (and, if applicable, the buyer) know and see what they say.
To those who said that after such a long period of time it's tough luck for the buyer and/or the auction house - if the coin is counterfeit, it shouldn't make any difference how long it took to find out. And if anyone said that, based on the opinion of one grading company it is tough luck on the consignor, I don't believe that is automatically the case, based on the language in the consignment agreement.
<< <i>Without having read most of the replies this far.....
First, I would contact the auction house and let them know what you plan to do, as outlined below. I'd also request that they relay the information to the buyer. And if you are OK with your identity as the seller being known to him, ask that he be invited to contact you, so that you can talk to him directly. He might or might not have interest in doing so.
Next, I would try to communicate with whichever grading company deemed the coin to be of "questionable authenticity" and find out upon what basis they made their call.
If, after doing that (or being unable to do so), I were not satisfied, I would get an opinion from another highly respected grading company. If they concur with the first one, case closed - you should reimburse the auction company. But if they certify the coin as genuine, let the auction house (and, if applicable, the buyer) know and see what they say.
To those who said that after such a long period of time it's tough luck for the buyer and/or the auction house - if the coin is counterfeit, it shouldn't make any difference how long it took to find out. And if anyone said that, based on the opinion of one grading company it is tough luck on the consignor, I don't believe that is automatically the case, based on the language in the consignment agreement. >>
I agree with this
or ...
Just refund their money and move on if you don't want a fight with the dealer who sold it to you.
<< <i>What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?
Uhh, all of them but Teletrade.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
1. is honorable and ethical;
2. is knowledgable and has expertise in contracts and commercial law in that state whose law would apply to any dispute [look at the wording of the consignment agreement];
3. can review the facts and law and give you both legal advice [who has a strong case, who has a weak case, what legal proceeding could or should be filed by or against you]; and practical advice [how much things will cost if you get involved in a lawsuit or arbitration; and what impact such a proceeding, whether you win or lose, would have on your reputation and on future business transactions with your opponent and/or with others in the industry who would hear about what is going on].
After getting advice from a lawyer, make you own decision about what to do based upon your own evaluation of where you are at, where you want to be and how to get from point A to point B in a manner that best benefits you.
If you need a lawyer, hopefully you will find one who can provide the above. If you do and with his or her advice you can get where you want to be, the lawyer has done you a great service adn has truly earned his/her fee.
Good luck.
<< <i>If you guaranteed authenticity, it is up to you to prove that is it authentic. How did you determine that it is authentic? Can you get another expert to refute the questionable authenticity that this other firm came up with? >>
I would think this a prudent route to go...
Even on issued US Coinage the authenticity can be murky sometimes. I had a coin deemed not authentic by a top TPG only to later accept the evidence from multiple experts on the pieces authenticity and reverse their prior decision and they slabbed/graded the coin. I'm sure this is a very rare occurence though.
Virtually all major auction firms - including this one, I'm sure - require a notice of the desire to return a coin within 30 days or less. However, the 30 day (or less) limit does not apply with respect to authenticity, as coins are guaranteed authentic forever.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's not. In fact, my last invoice from this particular auction house was more than 100 times the amount that they now want back from me.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What did you (as opposed to the auction house) purport the item to be at the time of consignment?
<< <i>Are you sure it's the same coin? >>
Good point.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are you sure it's the same coin? >>
Good point. >>
Andy already said that he is.
It would be on the consignment inventory - whether I wrote it up or they did is probably irrelevant - as "Country/Date/Denomination Struck in Lead". No mention would have been made with respect to original vs restrike, because none of us were qualified to make that determination.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If the coin in the OP is not going to get a showing in this thread, then here's a coin of mine.
Carefully photographed to hide the scratch.
Please continue with the discussion, now that we have gotten the coin picture out of the way. Thank you!
It sounds like the TPG agrees with everyone's assessment that it's questionable. Isn't it OK to sell questionable items?
Edited to add quote from Andy's last post.
<< <i>If the dollar amount is question is high enough...
It's not. In fact, my last invoice from this particular auction house was more than 100 times the amount that they now want back from me. >>
Actually I'm surprised that they did not eat it if you do that much business with them in one sale.
john
They probably would have if I were not a dealer. But they know they can take some liberties with dealers because we need them as much as they need us.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>A year later.............they own it. >>
Some states do not a allow a time limitation on guarantees of authenticity.
1. The auction house acts as your agent in selling consigned coin and under the consignment agreement you the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the coin;
2. If #1 is accurate, exactly to whom are you making the guaranty? Your agent the auction house or the buyer of the coin at the auction or both?
3. Is the buyer of the coin making a claim against your agent, the auction house, asserting that the authenticity of the coin is in doubt [with the auction house seeking indemnification from you based upon the language in the consignment agreement that you guaranty authenticity]; or is the buyer of the coin making a claim directly against you? If the buyer is making a claim against you directly [and not the auction house] what is the basis of the buyer's claim against you. If the claim is being made by the buyer against the auction house and not against you, what is the basis of the buyer's claim against the auction house?
4. Does the consignment agreement, or any of the materials issued by the auction house advertising the auction of the coin in question have any wording/provisions which cover, either generally or specifically, the situation that has arisen? If so, are any of the wording/provisions in the consignment agreement or advertising materials vague/abiguous, thus being capable of multiple interpretations?
5. Who prepared the consignment agreement and the advertising materials [my assumption is that the auction house prepared same, possibly with the help of its own in house or outhouse lawyers].
The above questions and answers thereto would shed light on the potential legal issues that could arise if one side or the other dragged the dispute into court or arbitration. At a minimum, the outcome of this situation may lead to the auction house revising its consignment agreement and/or advertising materials to include additional wording/provisions which cover this exact situation (or which rewrites existing wording/provisions covering the point which are vague and ambiguous]. This rewrite/revision process is something that insures continued [nay lifetime
1. The auction house acts as your agent in selling consigned coin and under the consignment agreement you the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the coin;
Correct.
2. If #1 is accurate, exactly to whom are you making the guaranty? Your agent the auction house or the buyer of the coin at the auction or both?
My understanding is that I made the guaranty to the auction house. (In France, it would be the other way. But this deal was in the USA.)
3. Is the buyer of the coin making a claim against your agent, the auction house, asserting that the authenticity of the coin is in doubt [with the auction house seeking indemnification from you based upon the language in the consignment agreement that you guaranty authenticity]; or is the buyer of the coin making a claim directly against you? If the buyer is making a claim against you directly [and not the auction house] what is the basis of the buyer's claim against you. If the claim is being made by the buyer against the auction house and not against you, what is the basis of the buyer's claim against the auction house?
The buyer's claim, valid or not, is against the auction house. His basis for the claim is weak. Ultimately, I think his recourse is at the auction firm's discretion.
4. Does the consignment agreement, or any of the materials issued by the auction house advertising the auction of the coin in question have any wording/provisions which cover, either generally or specifically, the situation that has arisen?
Not specifically.
5. Who prepared the consignment agreement and the advertising materials [my assumption is that the auction house prepared same, possibly with the help of its own in house or outhouse lawyers].
You assume correctly.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
You have to refund an auction company if a coin is either called counterfeit or stolen, no time limit.
<< <i>
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
You have to refund an auction company if a coin is either called counterfeit or stolen, no time limit. >>
You sell me a Morgan dollar. Two years later I decide I don't like it. I can just call it counterfeit and get a refund?
For the record, I have personally known some "outhouse lawyers".
Ray
No way I'd refund a customer after he or she has been caretaker of said coin for an entire year.
No excuses - no ill feelings but the request to return is preposterous if not assinine. JMHO - FWIW.
I definitely would not issue a refund given the amount of time nor would I continue any further dialogue with this buyer.
Period!
I concur.
<< <i>With all due respect. regardless who the buyer is, waiting a year to ask for a return on any coin is way out of line.
No way I'd refund a customer after he or she has been caretaker of said coin for an entire year.
No excuses - no ill feelings but the request to return is preposterous if not assinine. JMHO - FWIW.
I definitely would not issue a refund given the amount of time nor would I continue any further dialogue with this buyer.
Period! >>
Regardless of how you feel about it personally. legally, you probably wouldn't have a choice.
You raise a valid point however more details would have to come to light.
The terms of the auction or the sale make a difference. The auction company bears a portion of the
liability as well. If it's safe to assume they are staffed with competent Numismatists/ graders & the
coin was determined (by said Auction House) to be non - problematic and later proved to be, then they
bear some of the burden of liability as well.
Without benefit of any more detail - why was said coin acceptable for right at a year and now it isn't?
There are many mitigating factors here & many unknowns but common sense would have it that said
buyer should have reached a decision in a much more timely fashion. Too many unknowns & this reeks.
Nobody keeps a coin for an entire year then decides he no longer wants it unless he's gotten in a financial
pickle and just wants "out"! How the venue can force a return upon you after the amount of time that passed
has to be unprecedented. I think we all would need to know a lot more before trying to come to a fair judgement.
Sorry - but this smells and that's all there is to it - for now!
I would want some answers from this so-called PITA buyer.
Suppose it's been mishandled or has somehow incurred damage? Still doesn't "feel" right IMHO.
<< <i><< Regardless of how you feel about it personally. legally, you probably wouldn't have a choice. >>
You raise a valid point however more details would have to come to light.
The terms of the auction or the sale make a difference. The auction company bears a portion of the
liability as well. If it's safe to assume they are staffed with competent Numismatists/ graders & the
coin was determined (by said Auction House) to be non - problematic and later proved to be, then they
bear some of the burden of liability as well.
Without benefit of any more detail - why was said coin acceptable for right at a year and now it isn't?
There are many mitigating factors here & many unknowns but common sense would have it that said
buyer should have reached a decision in a much more timely fashion. Too many unknowns & this reeks.
Nobody keeps a coin for an entire year then decides he no longer wants it unless he's gotten in a financial
pickle and just wants "out"! How the venue can force a return upon you after the amount of time that passed
has to be unprecedented. I think we all would need to know a lot more before trying to come to a fair judgement.
Sorry - but this smells and that's all there is to it - for now!
I would want some answers from this so-called PITA buyer. >>
There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
He (Eureka) is by no means a fool nor is he a novice. If he states that
this coin is NOT counterfeit, I would tend to trust his judgement.
Which leaves us with - "Then exactly what IS the reason for wanting a return - a year later?"
Do you have pictures on file of this esoteric coin? What is the buyer's position/ complaint?
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
I agree.
TD
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......