This is an interesting thread and there are lots of interesting thought processes here.
Since the auction house already sent you the coin itself; that tells me that someone at the auction house has made a decision. If you manage to reverse that decision through dialog with the auction house, we'd all be fascinated with the details, i'm sure! I'm tending to think that you are in the right here. However, i'm also thinking that a difficult road has been placed in front of you.
I'm interested in your initial reaction when you opened the letter. Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
In my opinion, I think way to much time has passed. And I wonder who is making the call as to it's authenticity? This seems like a strange situation with so much time behind the sale...Good luck...
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot. >>
Don't let a small # affect a large #, Andy. If your consignments did well, then keep on consigning.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot. >>
Sorry, I had missed your post with your reply to the auction house. Not bad
<< <i>Don't let a small # affect a large #, Andy. If your consignments did well, then keep on consigning.
Good advice, except that most coins will perform equally well elsewhere. >>
If that's the case, why have you been giving the business to that company? Something drew you to them - don't lose sight of it.
By the way, under the circumstances, I realize that it is far easier to say than to do. And I would almost certainly go elsewhere if I felt I had been treated unfairly. I have been known to "cut my nose to spite my face" on principle.
Personally I think OP has taken the right approach here, much the same way I handled a similar situation in the past. "Show me proof that this item is not genuine (i.e. a Not Genuine designation from a top tier TPG), and you'll get a no-questions-asked refund." Thus far the item has not been proven to be fake. The TPG has merely shown their inability to authenticate such a specialized item and chickened out of giving an opinion by designating it QA. Also, something to consider... as a lead impression of a coin, it by definition is not the coin itself, so it could certainly be successfully argued that both the buyer and the auction house knew that it was not the genuine coin going in... and it could also be argued that a TPG could not successfully "authenticate" something that by definition is not authentic.
I don't know how much money is involved here (I assume at least a fair amount, otherwise you'd have simply refunded by now and been done with it)... but if this were to be litigated, given what's been stated here thus far- short of a flat NG designation from a TPG I should think the buyer would end up owning it. JMHO
Andy, did you check to see if, perchance, any other TPG had seen the piece and certified it? It is not inconceivable that the bidder suffered buyer's remorse, and shopped it around until he got a "negative" report he could use as an excuse to return the piece. TD
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>I have been known to "cut my nose to spite my face" on principle. >>
Can you give an example? >>
An auction house accepted some coins from me on consignment for a particular part/session of a sale. Roughly a week later, they informed me that the value of some of the coins was insufficient for that part of the sale and they wouldn't include them. An employee there who knew coins had personally received them from me and seen my realistic insured values. Even though I thought it was the best auction company, I quit consigning to them, until someone there took it upon themselves to make it right by offering me a break for a future consignment.
I also avoid certain dealers whose business practices I find to be particularly disturbing in one sense or another. In some instances that costs me business/money.
Based upon the information presented so far, my thoughts on the legalities of this situation are:
1. The buyer of the coin has a big problem seeking a refund from the auction house since there is no proof that the coin is not genuine [i.e. a TPG or other recognized expert evaluates the coin and concludes that it is not genuine]. The absence of such proof and the presence of what I assume are specific wording in the auction house advertising materials covering the "Terms Of Sale" that protect the auction house in this situation would likely doom the buyer in a trial or arbitration;
2. The time that has passed between the sale of the coin to the buyer and the buyer seeking a refund from the auction house may, depending on the fact and law, give rise to a legal or equitable defense to the auction house against the claims of the buyer [particularly if the coin has been tinkered with at all during the time the buyer has owned it]; and
3. Any claim by the auction company against the consignor for indemnity based upon the wording of the consignment agreement providing that the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the consigned coin would more than likely fail in the absence of proof by the auction house (and/or the buyer) that the coin is not genuine.
Without knowing the details of the facts, without seeing the consignment agreement and advertising materials; and without knowing the applicable laws of the state whose laws would apply to this situation, my opinions are not worth jack. However if any party to the situation asked for my initial gut reaction to the situation, it would be what I have stated.
Whether the consignor should offer a refund or not depends not on the prospect of losing a legal battle, but upon non legal considerations.
Having been in the retail trades in one form or another for 40 years I've probably seen it all in terms of "reasons for returns".
My initial gut reaction would be that the customer decided to sell the coin (presumably for a profit) after most of a year had gone by and in order to do so had to get it authenticated.
Having failed he now decides to return the piece.
While technically he may be right in returning it for lack of authentication, a year is simply too long (under normal circumstances) and arouses my suspicions as to his motives.
Unfortunately I've learned to be cynical over time due to experience.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Why did it take a YEAR to come to this conclusion as opposed to ....
a week, a month, 60 days?
Something definitely amiss here! >>
Reasonable possibilities have already been provided. Even Andy, the consignor, who has money at stake, didn't dismiss them as you seem to want to do.
See my post (in reply to an earlier one of yours) and Andy's reply, below:
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
While I have not read all of the posts, I did skim. Fortunately, I caught pennieannie's reply and laughed out loud.
What I noticed is a mix of folks applying personal standards of conduct, which does not necessarily mesh with the law.
I also noted the comment that it is Mr. Eureka's duty to prove the item is authentic. I am not inclined to agree as there is not enough information. His duty is to guarantee authenticity, which he did (albeit with a measure of doubt that it is in fact genuine). Not knowing the basis for the determination of "Questionable Authenticity", it is difficult to know whether the burden has shifted to Mr. Eureka. Fundamentally, IMO the burden initially is to prove or at least reasonably persuade that the item is not authentic.
Formality aside, Mr. Eureka's response to the auction house seems quite appropriate. One would think that this would at least getter the matter before someone who can see the forest for the trees and render the legal aspects of the situation academic.
Shame on the auction company for coming to Andy without FIRM PROOF the coin was, indeed, counterfeit. Had they... Andy would have written them a check and there would be nothing to discuss.
It's as simple as that.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Based upon the information presented so far, my thoughts on the legalities of this situation are:
1. The buyer of the coin has a big problem seeking a refund from the auction house since there is no proof that the coin is not genuine [i.e. a TPG or other recognized expert evaluates the coin and concludes that it is not genuine]. The absence of such proof and the presence of what I assume are specific wording in the auction house advertising materials covering the "Terms Of Sale" that protect the auction house in this situation would likely doom the buyer in a trial or arbitration;
2. The time that has passed between the sale of the coin to the buyer and the buyer seeking a refund from the auction house may, depending on the fact and law, give rise to a legal or equitable defense to the auction house against the claims of the buyer [particularly if the coin has been tinkered with at all during the time the buyer has owned it]; and
3. Any claim by the auction company against the consignor for indemnity based upon the wording of the consignment agreement providing that the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the consigned coin would more than likely fail in the absence of proof by the auction house (and/or the buyer) that the coin is not genuine.
Without knowing the details of the facts, without seeing the consignment agreement and advertising materials; and without knowing the applicable laws of the state whose laws would apply to this situation, my opinions are not worth jack. However if any party to the situation asked for my initial gut reaction to the situation, it would be what I have stated.
Whether the consignor should offer a refund or not depends not on the prospect of losing a legal battle, but upon non legal considerations. >>
90 Questionable Authenticity – the coin is most likely a counterfeit. PCGS no grades
There isn't a code for "Counterfeit"
now for the touchy feely part apart from the law.
1 Above) There is also the question of honor. The auction house's and the consignor's. How does that fit in?
2 Above) see 1, but also consider the value of the coin versus the trouble. Maybe the new buyer is cheap? Maybe it is principle? Maybe it is money? Buyers Remorse? On the other hand, see 1.
3 Above) see also PCGS no grades. (although do we know it was PCGS?)
An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap! >>
So you're reneging on getting them to either prove that it's not genuine or having to eat it?
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap! >>
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap! >>
I just checked Andy - it brought $341,500.
>>
That price indicates it must have been before the 15% buyer's premium.
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
My first thought would be that isn't it the auction company that guarantees authenticity. That's what they pay their insurance premiums for and if they advertised the coin and it proved to not be authentic I would think the buck should stop there.
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap! >>
Let's see....comes in gold and silver, is part of a series, a "specialized" book was published in 2007 & contains color illustrations. Fine die cracks are present.
I am 99% sure I know to which Eureka is referring (esp. since I have the book in front me and see the die cracks he is talking about) but let's leave this as an exercise for the reader.
<< <i>If the dollar amount is question is high enough...
It's not. In fact, my last invoice from this particular auction house was more than 100 times the amount that they now want back from me. >>
Holy Cow! That's more than $34 million just on one invoice! We're not worthy!
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap! >>
Let's see....comes in gold and silver, is part of a series, a "specialized" book was published in 2007 & contains color illustrations. Fine die cracks are present.
I am 99% sure I know to which Eureka is referring (esp. since I have the book in front me and see the die cracks he is talking about) but let's leave this as an exercise for the reader.
Besides, I think I need to make an offer on it >>
Thanks for the tease. Other than patterns I'm not too familiar with coins that come in gold and silver apart from commemorative issue tokens. Of course we might be talkiing about a full Disme, though I believe that is arguably a pattern too and it would be worth a lot more than the sums alluded to here. There was a new Pattern book that seems to have come out in the referenced time frame.
I am 99% sure I know to which Eureka is referring (esp. since I have the book in front me and see the die cracks he is talking about) but let's leave this as an exercise for the reader.
Not a chance. I would be surprised if anyone here even knows that this book exists! In fact, I've never seen one offered in the USA.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic. Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
Since the auction house already sent you the coin itself; that tells me that someone at the auction house has made a decision.
If you manage to reverse that decision through dialog with the auction house, we'd all be fascinated with the details, i'm sure!
I'm tending to think that you are in the right here. However, i'm also thinking that a difficult road has been placed in front of you.
I'm interested in your initial reaction when you opened the letter.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot. >>
Don't let a small # affect a large #, Andy. If your consignments did well, then keep on consigning.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>So Andy, if you can share it here, what is your plan of action?
I sent an e-mail, which I shared earlier. Beyond that, if they insist on getting paid, they will get paid, but then they'll lose six figures in auction consignments this year. And I will sleep well.
Did your blood run cold when you first thought you may have sold a counterfeit? Or did your blood run hot with anger over the situation.
Hot. >>
Sorry, I had missed your post with your reply to the auction house. Not bad
Good advice, except that most coins will perform equally well elsewhere.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Don't let a small # affect a large #, Andy. If your consignments did well, then keep on consigning.
Good advice, except that most coins will perform equally well elsewhere. >>
If that's the case, why have you been giving the business to that company? Something drew you to them - don't lose sight of it.
By the way, under the circumstances, I realize that it is far easier to say than to do. And I would almost certainly go elsewhere if I felt I had been treated unfairly. I have been known to "cut my nose to spite my face" on principle.
<< <i>I have been known to "cut my nose to spite my face" on principle. >>
Can you give an example?
Also, something to consider... as a lead impression of a coin, it by definition is not the coin itself, so it could certainly be successfully argued that both the buyer and the auction house knew that it was not the genuine coin going in... and it could also be argued that a TPG could not successfully "authenticate" something that by definition is not authentic.
I don't know how much money is involved here (I assume at least a fair amount, otherwise you'd have simply refunded by now and been done with it)... but if this were to be litigated, given what's been stated here thus far- short of a flat NG designation from a TPG I should think the buyer would end up owning it. JMHO
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
It is not inconceivable that the bidder suffered buyer's remorse, and shopped it around until he got a "negative" report he could use as an excuse to return the piece.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>I have been known to "cut my nose to spite my face" on principle. >>
Can you give an example? >>
An auction house accepted some coins from me on consignment for a particular part/session of a sale. Roughly a week later, they informed me that the value of some of the coins was insufficient for that part of the sale and they wouldn't include them. An employee there who knew coins had personally received them from me and seen my realistic insured values. Even though I thought it was the best auction company, I quit consigning to them, until someone there took it upon themselves to make it right by offering me a break for a future consignment.
I also avoid certain dealers whose business practices I find to be particularly disturbing in one sense or another. In some instances that costs me business/money.
1. The buyer of the coin has a big problem seeking a refund from the auction house since there is no proof that the coin is not genuine [i.e. a TPG or other recognized expert evaluates the coin and concludes that it is not genuine]. The absence of such proof and the presence of what I assume are specific wording in the auction house advertising materials covering the "Terms Of Sale" that protect the auction house in this situation would likely doom the buyer in a trial or arbitration;
2. The time that has passed between the sale of the coin to the buyer and the buyer seeking a refund from the auction house may, depending on the fact and law, give rise to a legal or equitable defense to the auction house against the claims of the buyer [particularly if the coin has been tinkered with at all during the time the buyer has owned it]; and
3. Any claim by the auction company against the consignor for indemnity based upon the wording of the consignment agreement providing that the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the consigned coin would more than likely fail in the absence of proof by the auction house (and/or the buyer) that the coin is not genuine.
Without knowing the details of the facts, without seeing the consignment agreement and advertising materials; and without knowing the applicable laws of the state whose laws would apply to this situation, my opinions are not worth jack. However if any party to the situation asked for my initial gut reaction to the situation, it would be what I have stated.
Whether the consignor should offer a refund or not depends not on the prospect of losing a legal battle, but upon non legal considerations.
My initial gut reaction would be that the customer decided to sell the coin (presumably for a profit) after most of a year had gone by and in order to do
so had to get it authenticated.
Having failed he now decides to return the piece.
While technically he may be right in returning it for lack of authentication, a year is simply too long (under normal circumstances) and arouses my suspicions as to his motives.
Unfortunately I've learned to be cynical over time due to experience.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Why did it take a YEAR to come to this conclusion as opposed to ....
a week, a month, 60 days?
Something definitely amiss here!
<< <i>Let's be real, shall we?
Why did it take a YEAR to come to this conclusion as opposed to ....
a week, a month, 60 days?
Something definitely amiss here! >>
Reasonable possibilities have already been provided. Even Andy, the consignor, who has money at stake, didn't dismiss them as you seem to want to do.
See my post (in reply to an earlier one of yours) and Andy's reply, below:
<< <i>There are a number of scenarios that don't "smell". Among them - maybe the buyer was showing the coin around and its authenticity was questioned, so he submitted it for grading/authenticity. Maybe he was looking through his uncertified coins and decided to have a number of them graded. Maybe he saw an article on counterfeits so thought he should have his coin checked out. Think about all the counterfeits that are sold on Ebay and the buyers don't find out until much later, if at all. There's nothing fishy about such occurrences.
I agree, and I have no problem with the return except that IT HAS NOT BEEN DETERMINED THAT THE COIN IS COUNTERFEIT. >>
Just wondering.
Dave
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Threads such as this point out the pitfalls which frighten so many potential collectors away.
What I noticed is a mix of folks applying personal standards of conduct, which does not necessarily mesh with the law.
I also noted the comment that it is Mr. Eureka's duty to prove the item is authentic. I am not inclined to agree as there is not enough information. His duty is to guarantee authenticity, which he did (albeit with a measure of doubt that it is in fact genuine). Not knowing the basis for the determination of "Questionable Authenticity", it is difficult to know whether the burden has shifted to Mr. Eureka. Fundamentally, IMO the burden initially is to prove or at least reasonably persuade that the item is not authentic.
Formality aside, Mr. Eureka's response to the auction house seems quite appropriate. One would think that this would at least getter the matter before someone who can see the forest for the trees and render the legal aspects of the situation academic.
Shame on the auction company for coming to Andy without FIRM PROOF the coin was, indeed, counterfeit. Had they... Andy would have written them a check and there would be nothing to discuss.
It's as simple as that.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Based upon the information presented so far, my thoughts on the legalities of this situation are:
1. The buyer of the coin has a big problem seeking a refund from the auction house since there is no proof that the coin is not genuine [i.e. a TPG or other recognized expert evaluates the coin and concludes that it is not genuine]. The absence of such proof and the presence of what I assume are specific wording in the auction house advertising materials covering the "Terms Of Sale" that protect the auction house in this situation would likely doom the buyer in a trial or arbitration;
2. The time that has passed between the sale of the coin to the buyer and the buyer seeking a refund from the auction house may, depending on the fact and law, give rise to a legal or equitable defense to the auction house against the claims of the buyer [particularly if the coin has been tinkered with at all during the time the buyer has owned it]; and
3. Any claim by the auction company against the consignor for indemnity based upon the wording of the consignment agreement providing that the consignor guarantees the authenticity of the consigned coin would more than likely fail in the absence of proof by the auction house (and/or the buyer) that the coin is not genuine.
Without knowing the details of the facts, without seeing the consignment agreement and advertising materials; and without knowing the applicable laws of the state whose laws would apply to this situation, my opinions are not worth jack. However if any party to the situation asked for my initial gut reaction to the situation, it would be what I have stated.
Whether the consignor should offer a refund or not depends not on the prospect of losing a legal battle, but upon non legal considerations. >>
90 Questionable Authenticity – the coin is most likely a counterfeit.
PCGS no grades
There isn't a code for "Counterfeit"
now for the touchy feely part apart from the law.
1 Above) There is also the question of honor. The auction house's and the consignor's. How does that fit in?
2 Above) see 1, but also consider the value of the coin versus the trouble. Maybe the new buyer is cheap? Maybe it is principle? Maybe it is money? Buyers Remorse? On the other hand, see 1.
3 Above) see also PCGS no grades. (although do we know it was PCGS?)
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
So you're reneging on getting them to either prove that it's not genuine or having to eat it?
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
I just checked Andy - it brought $341,500.
<< <i>
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
I just checked Andy - it brought $341,500.
That price indicates it must have been before the 15% buyer's premium.
You're kidding, right!?
If NOT, could the recession, unemployment (downturned Economy etc)
mixed with a bit o' buyer's remorse be at work here?
This is a very interesting thread for several reasons.
I hope this works out well for you Andy.
<< <i><< I just checked Andy - it brought $341,500 >>
You're kidding, right!? >>
I'm pretty sure I was.
You're kidding, right!? >>
I'm pretty sure I was.
Took me a couple minutes to get up off the floor!
In that case, I'm glad it didn't stick!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
if not, then maybe some of your dies from those coins floating around the US in the 1780s from spain/mexico/peru wherever, those 8 reales
<< <i>More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?
And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>
My first thought would be that isn't it the auction company that guarantees authenticity. That's what they pay their insurance premiums for and if they advertised the coin and it proved to not be authentic I would think the buck should stop there.
Sorry, I can't do it. I don't want to expose the auction firm to the flames. (Not everyone is as forgiving as we are.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No problem, but no need to cut the auction firm in at this point. Just wire me $341,500 and I'll pop the coin in the mail.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
Let's see....comes in gold and silver, is part of a series, a "specialized" book was published in 2007 & contains color illustrations. Fine die cracks are present.
I am 99% sure I know to which Eureka is referring (esp. since I have the book in front me and see the die cracks he is talking about) but let's leave this as an exercise for the reader.
Besides, I think I need to make an offer on it
<< <i>If the dollar amount is question is high enough...
It's not. In fact, my last invoice from this particular auction house was more than 100 times the amount that they now want back from me. >>
Holy Cow! That's more than $34 million just on one invoice! We're not worthy!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i>An amusing resolution to the story. The auction company got back to me today and asked me to bring the coin to the next show to "work something out". I agreed, and I feel good about the situation. But here's the funny part. Coincidentally, I'm considering bidding on a couple of coins from the same series in an upcoming auction. I pulled a specialized book off my shelf that I had forgotten I had, just published in 2007. It's the first time I've even looked at the thing since I bought it. And in this book, lo and behold, are two great color photos of coins like mine, one struck in gold and the other in silver. Both exhibit fine die cracks that are also seen on my coin, which is the type of thing that I would not expect to transfer well to a counterfeit. In other words, my piece is almost certainly real. So I e-mailed the auction company an Emily Litella-ish "Never Mind", and told them thanks but I'll just keep it.
BTW, I still have no idea what the coin brought at auction. I didn't check. But I hope it was real cheap!
Let's see....comes in gold and silver, is part of a series, a "specialized" book was published in 2007 & contains color illustrations. Fine die cracks are present.
I am 99% sure I know to which Eureka is referring (esp. since I have the book in front me and see the die cracks he is talking about) but let's leave this as an exercise for the reader.
Besides, I think I need to make an offer on it
Thanks for the tease. Other than patterns I'm not too familiar with coins that come in gold and silver apart from commemorative issue tokens. Of course we might be talkiing about a full Disme, though I believe that is arguably a pattern too and it would be worth a lot more than the sums alluded to here. There was a new Pattern book that seems to have come out in the referenced time frame.
<< <i>I would wait a year to answer them. >>
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Not a chance. I would be surprised if anyone here even knows that this book exists! In fact, I've never seen one offered in the USA.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.