Consigned & Sold coin returned 1 year later for "Questionable Authenticity"...

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 12:32AM

More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?

And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not.

JamesMurray · February 11, 2010 12:35AM

Id tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

MsMorrisine · February 11, 2010 12:35AM

what would you want to have happen if you were the submitter and the TPG gave it a "Q.A." ??

DorkGirl · February 11, 2010 12:36AM

So does this mean I can also rent any of your coins for year for free?

Bochiman · February 11, 2010 12:36AM

Is this covered in whatever agreement you "signed" with said auction house?

derryb · February 11, 2010 12:39AM

Are you sure it's the same coin?

MsMorrisine · February 11, 2010 12:39AM

<< Id tell them to take a long walk off a short pier. >>

I think if the situation were reversed and he received the "Q.A." the tough talk would be to fight and get your money back from the auction house.

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 12:40AM

Is this covered in whatever agreement you "signed" with said auction house?

The agreement says that I guaranty the authenticity of the piece. It does not address how authenticity (or lack of authenticity) shall be determined, nor does it say who has the burden of proof.

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 12:41AM

Are you sure it's the same coin?

Yes.

chucknra · February 11, 2010 12:43AM

After 1 year, caveat emptor!

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 11, 2010 12:45AM

This sounds like fodder for one of the articles in the back of the Numismatist magazine. I wish I knew who wrote those...

For the record, it seems like an awfully long time has passed.

If you consigned a coin in 1984 and the coin was returned last month for QA, are you still liable? Maybe -- something to ponder.

Maybe ask for PNG arbitration?

slipgate · February 11, 2010 12:46AM

<< Is this covered in whatever agreement you "signed" with said auction house?

The agreement says that I guaranty the authenticity of the piece. It does not address how authenticity (or lack of authenticity) shall be determined, nor does it say who has the burden of proof. >>

Sounds like you are on the hook then and time isn't relevent. I'd argue that the coin is authentic until an expert says it is not. "Questionable Authenticity" IMO is not unauthentic. It is simply saying said TPG will not gurantee it as authentic.

notwilight · February 11, 2010 12:46AM

Just as in the famous Terminator scene, there are several reply options....

One that comes to mind is to tell them you still stand by your guarantee of authenticity and that they don't seem to have a dissenting opinion, on one of "questioning". --Jerry

sinin1 · February 11, 2010 12:46AM

it looks like you have no choice if you want to do business with the auction house again

(I am assuming they sent the coin in bodybag from either NGC or PCGS)

you have to send them the money

then, if you feel authentic, submit to the other guy
and if coin gets in slab - resell again

Is there a time limit for authenticity issues?

19Lyds · February 11, 2010 12:48AM

Wow.

A full year?

Was it a pattern?

Who was the auction house?

Who were the authenticators?

Why did it take a full year?

How much are we really talking about here?

So many questions which would have never been asked if this had been a 30 day period of time.

ocon4008 · February 11, 2010 12:52AM

One year seems abit excessive to me, but if the cost is not what you consider large and you wish to keep good relations with the auction house you might consider it. If you do consider the cost large how much is the relationship worth to you?

johnny9434 · February 11, 2010 12:52AM

a year is an awful long time for something like that. somethings way wrong there.

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 12:57AM

a year is an awful long time for something like that. somethings way wrong there.

It's not a long time if the buyer didn't submit it until recently, and that's certainly possible. Frankly, I don't think the amount of time would be an issue if the coin was in fact counterfeit. But we don't know that it is. (In fairness to all, this is an oddball item. I still don't know what to make of it.)

Coinosaurus · February 11, 2010 12:58AM

Legally you probably don't have to pay up. But it will likely be much less grief for you if you do.

RYK · February 11, 2010 12:58AM

Interesting problem with multiple facets. The practical aspect is that unless you want to harm your relationship with the firm, you probably have to go along with their request. I think it is pretty crappy for them to return the coin to you with an invoice, without prior discussion.

To me, there are three major issues: time, burden of proof, and the definition of genuine, all of which are murky. If the coin was returned in two weeks, it would favor the firm. If it was returned two decades later, it would favor you.

As for the burden of proof, I think it is well-accepted that the major TPGs have expertise on Federal US coins, and I would ordinarily accept their word on the matter. Of course, under these circumstances, they would be definitive in their conclusion. For an esoteric world item or medal, I do not consider them to necessarily be expert (though they may have consulted a recognized expert in the area...maybe even you! Ha!).

Finally, no one ever said that it was not authentic, just that its authenticity was questionable. When people purchase esoteric material, I think they shoulder some of the risk (more so than for an 09sVDB, for example). Largely for that reason, I am on your side, about 80-20.

notwilight · February 11, 2010 12:59AM

Thinking about it some more I would say that you have provided a guarantee and they accepted it. To exercise the guarantee, the burden of proof would be on them so they need more than an opinion of "questionable".

--Jerry

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 11, 2010 1:00AM

If you want to keep good relations with the auction house, turning this into an argument might result in you winning the war and losing the battle.

wondercoin · February 11, 2010 1:02AM

Andy - Did you ever see the great movie "Body Heat"? Do you remember what legal theory he screwed up under? Check with your attorney... it could apply here to your contract. LOL

Wondercoin

notwilight · February 11, 2010 1:03AM

<< If you want to keep good relations with the auction house, turning this into an argument might result in you winning the war and losing the battle. >>

Yes but politely making the point in my post might get them to say, "Yeah, I guess you're right. We'll get back to you." I'm sure they have had to discuss this with the buyer who has probably pushed them to return it. They may be just wondering what your response will be and if it is "OK, I'll send money" then they don't have to arbitrate. --Jerry

Longacre · February 11, 2010 1:07AM

If you guaranteed authenticity, it is up to you to prove that is it authentic. How did you determine that it is authentic? Can you get another expert to refute the questionable authenticity that this other firm came up with?

SeaEagleCoins · February 11, 2010 1:08AM

<< More than one year ago, an auction company sold a very esoteric item for me. Without any prior communications from them, the coin showed up in the mail today telling me that I had to refund the auction proceeds because a TPG called the coin "Questionable Authenticity". If this happened to you, what would you do?

And for those of you who think it's relevant, I would not try to return it to the dealer that sold it to me unless I was sure the coin was counterfeit, and I'm not. >>

This conundrum, as presented, raises more questions than it does answers...

First... this "item" is defined as "a very esoteric item" ... this covers an awful lot of territory... are there any known "authorities" who are recognized to have expertise in this particular "esoteric" area?

Second... for fairly obvious reasons, the particular TPG is not mentioned... regarding the person(s) at that particular TPG who was/were unable to effectively determine the authenticity (or was/were "nice" enough to not call it a definitive counterfeit, which would possibly mean losing the item to the authorities) ... are we able to know whether they actually have any real knowledge regarding this esoteric area?...

Third... one submission DOES NOT result in a "known fact" ... but simply an opinion du jour. Without getting totally off track here... I would not get my panties in (too much

) of a bunch over the opinion (in this case non-opinion) of one submission... Is the result of this one submission the end of the story? Is there no room for appeal or further investigation? or perhaps another opinion from a different TPG?

Four... refer to the First question... who is known to be an authority in this area? Have they seen the item? What is their opinion?

With all that said... is this a "real" situation? Or is this a stealth research project in preparation for another ethics column?

PerryHall · February 11, 2010 1:08AM

Do the major coin auction houses share a common data base of bad customers?

notwilight · February 11, 2010 1:12AM

<< If you guaranteed authenticity, it is up to you to prove that is it authentic. How did you determine that it is authentic? Can you get another expert to refute the questionable authenticity that this other firm came up with? >>

So I can return any raw coin I buy just by questioning it's authenticity and if they don't want to go to the trouble of "proving it" then they are on the hook?

--Jerry

Placid · February 11, 2010 1:14AM

What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?

adamlaneus · February 11, 2010 1:14AM

The following conditions appear to be true:

You cannot quite authenticate it. The grading company cannot quite authenticate it. The owner of the item questions its authenticity.

Without affirmative authentication, and with a customer issue, it seems to me that the auction house might well feel that its policy has been violated.

Take it back and resell in a different venue? Seek out professional authentication for a bizarre item? (might be hard to do!) Research for an upcoming article?

RYK · February 11, 2010 1:17AM

<< What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?

>>

Good point! Tell Stack's to pound sand and that ryk says to pound sand, too.

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 1:18AM

With all that said... is this a "real" situation? Or is this a stealth research project in preparation for another ethics column?

It's a real situation. I've already replied to the demand. This post is just a reality check. In other words, I want to know if I'm being a jerk.

yellowkid · February 11, 2010 1:19AM

I think I would contact whomever I obtained the piece from and get their input. A year is a long time and who knows how many hands the piece went through before someone decided it might have "issues," why should you be the one to have to eat this alone? However you are in the "chain" here and inadvertently may have assumed some culpability. What would a reasonable person do in this situation? I would try and work something out with the auction house and the person you obtained this from, perhaps you could all agree to assume a third of the financial distress here, if only in the spirit of settlement and the good of the hobby.

Let me amend this to say that the amount of money involved could certainly influence my actions.

JamesMurray · February 11, 2010 1:22AM

<< What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?

>>

Oops , its in the thread title

lkeigwin · February 11, 2010 1:22AM

Aren't counterfeit coins also returned with "questionable authenticity"? That is, doesn't that finding cover both those that are questionable and those that are known to be counterfeit?

If so, asserting that it is not known to be "not authentic" is a specious argument.
Lance.

CarlWohlforth · February 11, 2010 1:22AM

I would learn what, legally, my options are and go from there.

BigRick · February 11, 2010 1:23AM

I'd tell the auction company that it's their problem and not yours unless it is proven to be 100% a counterfeit by a US government official - or an official of whatever government that purportedly made the coin (in that case your liability never ends until the statute of limitations - criminal or civil - also ends).

Placid · February 11, 2010 1:24AM

<< 

<< What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?

>>

Has it been established its a coin that is in question ?As SeaEagleCoins pointed out Esoteric covers a lot of area. >>

The tilte of the thread say's "Consigned & Sold coin"

I would request that I was given the chance to send the coin to the tpg of my choice before giving a refund.

Do you even know what tpg the coin was sent to by the buyer? Maybe they were in lazy mode and didnt want to spend the time to investigate how to authenticate the coin.

JamesMurray · February 11, 2010 1:25AM

<< 

<< 

<< What auction house sells raw coins nowadays anyway?

>>

Has it been established its a coin that is in question ?As SeaEagleCoins pointed out Esoteric covers a lot of area. >>

The tilte of the thread say's "Consigned & Sold coin" >>

Yep , thanks id read the thread and got hung up on esoteric

mozin · February 11, 2010 1:30AM

I hope you try submitting to other grading services. It would be very interesting to see what the other services say.

HalfStrike · February 11, 2010 1:32AM

If this happened to you, what would you do?.....

Probably send it to another grading company for a second opinion...

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 1:33AM

I think I would contact whomever I obtained the piece from and get their input.

If I asked the original seller to take the coin back, they would. No questions asked. But since I think the coin might be real, I'm not going there.

airplanenut · February 11, 2010 1:34AM

I must agree with RYK here. For esoteric items that are not well known, it's hard to put the burden of absolute authenticity on any one party. If no one knows exactly what determines authenticity, it's hard to blame one person over another. The grading services will likely be tight on an issue like this, because as you have admitted, the authenticity certainly is in question; they certainly won't certify something they can't be positive is genuine.

I would open a dialogue with the auction firm to create a plan regarding how to go about more precisely determining authenticity. I don't agree with their tactic to just send it back without contact. Similarly, they hold some blame as even though you signed that the item was genuine, as the ultimate seller, the onus is on them to ensure the item is, in fact, genuine. They would certainly examine a 1909-S VDB cent that came in raw, and similarly, they should have examined this piece. By listing it, they clearly agreed with you that the piece was authentic.

JamesMurray · February 11, 2010 1:35AM

Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ? I only ask as you seem unsure really , in that you say you could return but wont because you think it "might" be real.

ttown · February 11, 2010 1:36AM

Questionable Authenticity doesn't equal fake IMO. They have the burdon of proof, sounds like they want a life time guarantee. Had the buyer sent it in in a timely manner then this wouldn't be an issue wouldn't it. Sounds like his bad to me.

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 1:38AM

Aren't counterfeit coins also returned with "questionable authenticity"?

If a TPG knows that a coin is counterfeit, it calls it "Not Genuine". If the TPG can't figure it out, they call it "Questionable Authenticity" or "No Decision".

WorldTypeSet · February 11, 2010 1:38AM

Bring the item to the Pawn Shop on Pawn Stars. You'll be told "You know what, I really don't know much about these. But, I know a guy, he's an expert on this sort of stuff. Let me give him a call and have him take a look before I make you an offer."

JamesMurray · February 11, 2010 1:40AM

<< Bring the item to the Pawn Shop on Pawn Stars. You'll be told "You know what, I really don't know much about these. But, I know a guy, he's an expert on this sort of stuff. Let me give him a call and have him take a look before I make you an offer." >>

MrEureka · February 11, 2010 1:42AM

Will the forum at any point be allowed to view the item ?

No, because that would make it easy to identify the auction company. But I'll tell you that the coin is a lead impression of a foreign coin, and it's not in great shape. It could be a contemporary die trial, a later restrike, or a complete fabrication. Frankly, I don't know what it is, and I'm not surprised that the TPG couldn't figure it out.

PonyExpress8 · February 11, 2010 1:43AM

I had a somewhat similar situation although the item was probably more mainstream.

Sold to me with some degree of documentation it was real. Examination of the coin by me in hand, it has the proper diagnostics, weight, die pairing, etc. per good resource books. Sold to another dealer who in turn sold it to a 3rd dealer. About 6 months passed and dealer #3 contacts dealer #2 (the dealer I sold it too) saying a TPG (not NGC or PCGS) questions the authenticity. I stepped up and refunded dealer #2 the money receiving the coin back, and sought further investigation. The coin was reviewed by 2 experts in the series who both thought it was ok, but weren't 100% sure. I finally sent it to one of the top 2 TPG's and got the verdict it was in fact Not Genuine (the first TPG doesn't have the same personnel they used to in authenticating so I wanted a 2nd opinion).

So I wound up eating the coin. I have debated going back to the original seller and have attempted to contact him but he is non-responsive, big surprise there, so it would take court action (small claims since we are talking about $1,500) if I am ever to recover my expense on the coin.

It's never easy. Good luck Andy. Not sure how my story relates to yours but maybe by sharing my experience there is something you can glean from it that could be useful.

Glenn

kryptonitecomics · February 11, 2010 1:48AM

Based on principal alone and the amount of time that has passed I would say it's bogus for you to have to return the money.....but I dont know all the legal mumbo jumbo so mine is just an opinion.

Consigned & Sold coin returned 1 year later for "Questionable Authenticity"...

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Consigned &amp; Sold coin returned 1 year later for &quot;Questionable Authenticity&quot;...

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Consigned & Sold coin returned 1 year later for "Questionable Authenticity"...