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A non collector just asked me a question and I don't know the answer...
mrpaseo
Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭
Why are US coins valued higher than the majority of foreign coins....?
Meaning, if you take a coin from the 1700 from the US and one from out there... The US would be worth more...
My thoughts were:
1. Quantity minted.
2. Demand.
3. Dollar value causing foreigners to collect US coins.
4. Americans spending foolish money (Like we do on everything else).
Your thoughts?
Ray
Meaning, if you take a coin from the 1700 from the US and one from out there... The US would be worth more...
My thoughts were:
1. Quantity minted.
2. Demand.
3. Dollar value causing foreigners to collect US coins.
4. Americans spending foolish money (Like we do on everything else).
Your thoughts?
Ray
0
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I don't think that many non-Americans collect American coins.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Also the "Red Book" has been around for a long time. A simple easy to understand guide to American coinage.
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Coin collecting hadn't been known as the hobby of Kings in gest.
With changing ecomonic conditions we are seeing rising prices in the series of many nations.
1) overall population. The population of the US is larger than virtually all of Europe together or seperately
2) collector demand. A relatively high number of collectors relative to the population
3) large base of shows and auctions. No country has more of these than the US
4) most importanly, the long tradition of collecting, researching, publishing about numismatics since the mid 19th century. The wealth of information that is available is much, much larger than other countries. This has created a long, popular and well researched tradition of collecting
5) grading services. Virtually unknown outside of the US and I think this has helped the hobby a lot since the 1980s...
Dennis
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they collected animal teeth & fire, or shells. Some collected heads & weapons. Some now
collect Coca Cola bottles.
As mankind evolved into higher levels of economic development, so to did their collectibles.
Americans and several other societies now collect historical items from their past,
which include money.
Oh, and we still collect teeth.
R.I.P. Bear
We've been one of the most exciting experiments in human history. We have a fascinating history, with an incredibly unlikely start. We've been center stage for almost every major world (or eurocentric, or ameriocentric) event for the last century and a half.
And though we haven't always got it right, we've tried to do the right thing. Altruism at the international level. Nobody is perfect--but our ideals are. Not many other countries can claim that. And we've made it work.
It's easy to forget how amazing the American experiment really is in the history of the world. Let's face it: We rock.
--Severian the Lame
That's the answer IMO.
Brit coin collecting American here. The British Mint has a reasonable record of mintages over the past 175 or so years, though in earlier years it is coins minted that particular year (not coins dated a particular year).
Why demand? Simple example. British bronze and copper pennies in top grades are in high demand and fetch unreal prices. Top quality (or any quality, for that matter) halfpennies are in scarcer supply for almost any given date, but are in much lower collecting demand and thus have a much lower value than perhaps they should have. Brits are enjoying a slightly better standard of living, so the prices of many British coins have gone up 3-10x in the past ten years - and are still rising.
<< <i>Why are US coins valued higher than the majority of foreign coins....?
Meaning, if you take a coin from the 1700 from the US and one from out there... The US would be worth more... >>
This is not necessarily true.
It's amazing how everyone is just agreeing here. Tell me which coin from the 1700s is worth more:
Foreign
US
The U.S. market is driven ever skyward because grading is stratified down to individual points on the Sheldon scale. A single digit in one direction or the other can mean the difference of an order of magnitude in price. And U.S. price guides, both wholesale and and retail, are based on that prinicple.
World coins are dealt with in a more general fashion. There are differences between UNC and BU to be sure, but there aren't established pricing guidelines for 63, 64, 65, 66, etc. European collectors and dealers aren't as hung up on the difference between a 63 and a 64 as American collectors are.
Also, the whole registry mania thing seems to be a uniquely American concept.
In short, the U.S. collecting paradigm is hyper-regimented.
World coin collectors collect coins. U.S. coin collectors collect numerical grades.
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U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>Why are US coins valued higher than the majority of foreign coins....? >>
Weighing in from the 'darkside'. I have pondered this many times over the years. I think Walmann and Denis88 have nailed it. I do not necessarily think it is a factor of low mintages, nor is it a factor of the value of the dollar. I do think disposable income is a significant variable in the equation, and I do believe that the high number of shows and readily available numismatic publications (Red Book, magazines, etc) support the US coin market. Regardless, I have come to realize that quality brings high prices regardless of the country or time period.
This does not mean that collector's markets are not strong elsewhere, however. I suspect that we just do not see it here in the US. The last 5 years saw tremendous run ups in the prices of many areas of world coins. I collected Russian through the early decade, and many prices have gone up in multiples of 5 to 8 over the past 10 years. I suspect China and India material (genuine pieces that is) will climb at extraordinary rates over the next 10 years. There is simply more money in the average man's pocket to pursue the hobby. My main focus now is primarliy European pre-1800 material. Many of the European countries have very strong collectors bases - take Germany for example. Just take a look at the German equivalent of eBay exclusively for coins - MA Shops. There is almost 200,000 coins listed at any point in time, ranging from a few cents to 5 or 6 figures.
With all that said, I don't think I can argue that the US is overpriced, nor can I argue the world is underpriced. When you compare some of the absolutely equisite US and world high end treasures, they still seem relatively priced against the runaway high end art collectibles world.
<< <i>Because no one wants to be known as a "zloty" or "kopeck" collector!
On the plus side no one would want to handle your kopecks or zlotys, making gem specimens plentiful.
Many very high end World coins are also beginning to sky-rocket in price, so that fact alone tends to argue in favor of demand driving price. That doesn't answer the question though, since why is there then such a demand? I agree with worldcoinguy when he posted "I think Walmann and Denis88 have nailed it".
What they said...
<< <i>Walmann
Demand mainly driven by the large American middle class with its greater disposal income versus that of other countries.
Coin collecting hadn't been known as the hobby of Kings in gest.
With changing ecomonic conditions we are seeing rising prices in the series of many nations. >>
<< <i>Denis88
As a non-American (for now) collecting US coins, I have been thinking of this a lot. My conclusions for now:
1) overall population. The population of the US is larger than virtually all of Europe together or seperately
2) collector demand. A relatively high number of collectors relative to the population
3) large base of shows and auctions. No country has more of these than the US
4) most importanly, the long tradition of collecting, researching, publishing about numismatics since the mid 19th century. The wealth of information that is available is much, much larger than other countries. This has created a long, popular and well researched tradition of collecting
5) grading services. Virtually unknown outside of the US and I think this has helped the hobby a lot since the 1980s... >>
Finally, the poster who said "US product hopefully is the best made but if not the designs are the coolest" has obviously not bothered to check out the designs of the many beautiful (and beautifully struck) world coins. Many will literally take your breath away!
I will now return to the darkside.
<< <i>As a non-American (for now) collecting US coins, I have been thinking of this a lot. My conclusions for now:
1) overall population. The population of the US is larger than virtually all of Europe together or seperately
2) collector demand. A relatively high number of collectors relative to the population
3) large base of shows and auctions. No country has more of these than the US
4) most importanly, the long tradition of collecting, researching, publishing about numismatics since the mid 19th century. The wealth of information that is available is much, much larger than other countries. This has created a long, popular and well researched tradition of collecting
5) grading services. Virtually unknown outside of the US and I think this has helped the hobby a lot since the 1980s...
Dennis >>
I think collector demand is growing faster in world versus the US. It may be in the aggregate but nonetheless growing much faster. The number of shows worldwide are growing too.
I do think the US has better research on their coins but there are terrific numismatist/researchers outside the US as well.
Grading services are growing in acceptance as witness by clones of the top tier US tpg's in other countries ( ie CGS in Great Britain) . The top tier US graders also are attending world coin shows........I wonder what they would say if you ask them where they think there growth is from.
I think the internet, as young as it is, will create a boon in world coin collectings, as dealers and collectos are being brought together and its easier to follow the hobby.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why are US coins valued higher than the majority of foreign coins....?
Meaning, if you take a coin from the 1700 from the US and one from out there... The US would be worth more... >>
This is not necessarily true.
It's amazing how everyone is just agreeing here. Tell me which coin from the 1700s is worth more:
Foreign
US >>
Seriously? Your comparing Copper to Gold, 90 years difference and both ends of the grade scale....
Apples and Oranges...
Ray
<< <i>As a non-American (for now) collecting US coins, I have been thinking of this a lot. My conclusions for now:
1) overall population. The population of the US is larger than virtually all of Europe together or seperately
2) collector demand. A relatively high number of collectors relative to the population
3) large base of shows and auctions. No country has more of these than the US
4) most importanly, the long tradition of collecting, researching, publishing about numismatics since the mid 19th century. The wealth of information that is available is much, much larger than other countries. This has created a long, popular and well researched tradition of collecting
5) grading services. Virtually unknown outside of the US and I think this has helped the hobby a lot since the 1980s...
Dennis >>
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Dennis.
For example look the mintages of the UK's 2 Pounds proof silver Britannia's.If you use the UK's population in proportion to the US population than it would follow that the comparative issues of American Eagle Silver Proofs would be 5 times that of the UK's Britannia's mintages. This would mean American Silver Eagle Proofs would run from a run anywhere from 13,750 to a high of 84,000. Instead we see a low mintage of some 3.6 million plus to in excess of 11 million. This year's low mintage of zero American Eagle Silver Proofs could lead one to believe everyone in the UK has passed away though.
Although it is not always the case in any given year or series (such as the 2009 ASE proofs), if you compare mintages of US proofs to those other nations in proportion to the US population there will be a disprorportionate number of proofs made per person in the US. I use proofs as the measure as these are not produced for circulation but are in great measure an indication of collector base. The post World War II prosperity in the US is reflected by the drastic increase in proof and mint sets production. 1950 saw production of proof sets more than double than pre-war production. It may be argued that economic conditions prior to the war would supress demand, but that is a reinforcement of the point, prosperity and disposalable income increased and fueled demand.
of today's dollar even though it doesn't buy the same - so its never been devalued like other countries
<< <i>I have actually thought about this several times. My assumption is the demand. >>
Bingo!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
One thing not yet mentioned is interest which is based on FAMILIARITY. I know US history, so will collect a hard times token, good for token, medal, so-called, etc based on some US history event. My knowledge on national history of another 200 world histories is naturally not nearly as extensive. Hence my familiarity with events and people depicted on coins does not resonate.
Nevertheless I am fascinated by the beauty of many world coins and on some level would LIKE to collect such, but am hesitant to learn detailed political, culutral and economic history of several dozen more countries (small brain).
fwiw.
[btw, today was the first time I ever willfully/knowingly purchased a foreign token - Mexican. Fits in my theory of familiarity (I did not choose Slovenia or Uganda or somewhere else without geographical/cultural nexus.]
<< <i>Because no one wants to be known as a "zloty" or "kopeck" collector!
Hey now!
I still say an average American would be overwhelmed with collecting and learning history behind world coins. It's so much simpler to collect US. Combine that with more disposable income and you have a nice market that is so bored with lack of variety that has to invent it with conditional rarities, VAMs, etc...
My 2 cents worth.....
I'm an Aussie living in Australia but I'm collecting Gold Indian Head Half Eagles for two main reasons:
(1) It's gold; and
(2) A lot of you may disagree with me but I find this coin to be one of the most (if not the most) beautiful US coin ever minted. BLP has done a really great job on designing this coin. Specially with it's unique incuse design.
I agree that the price difference between US and World coins is market driven. In terms of collectible coins, the US will has and always will be the bigget market in the world.
Happy collecting!
Cheers!
another one of my favorites, and big enough to see.
Could this have anything to do with it ...
Deep pocket collectors want to own "the best". With the popularity of TPGs in the US, defining "the best" is fairly easy, just look at the Pop Reports. With non-US coins, this is much harder to do.
My World Coin Type Set
<< <i>My thoughts were:
1. Quantity minted.
2. Demand.
3. Dollar value causing foreigners to collect US coins.
4. Americans spending foolish money (Like we do on everything else). >>
Definitely 2 and 4. Definitely not 3. I hate to break it to you guys, but virtually nobody outside the US finds US coinage particularly interesting. (Yes, I personally do collect US coins. I guess that makes me "virtually nobody".) We certainly don't think they're really worth the extra $$$ the dealers ask for. Besides, the prices for US coins have been relatively high for a lot longer than the present weakness of the US dollar.
Coin value is, like most things, a function of supply and demand. For US coin prices to be above those of non-US coins, demand for them has to be higher and/or the supply must be lower. Let's address both sides of this equation.
Supply: mintages for US coins, particularly pre-1835, tend to be on the low side. On the other hand, most other mintages are very much on the high side. Furthermore, the US has not suffered from invasion, foreign occupation and conquest like much of the rest of the world has; such things tend to "recycle" the coinage, with the invaders tossing all the pre-invasion coins they can find into the melting pot; that means that in theory, a higher percentage of US coins should have survived. One key difference in supply is with gold coins; few other countries have actively hunted down and destroyed their own coinages as efficiently as the US did with it's pre-1933 gold coinage. This seriously reduces the supply of those coins and (in my opinion) renders the mintage figures for these coins irrelevant to determining value.
Demand: There are far more coin collectors in the US than anywhere else. That's not just as a total, that's also as a percentage of the population. There are no other countries that I'm aware of that can match it; Germany and Britain come the closest, but they're still a long way behind. There historically was a high number of collectors in China, but the Communist regime has until recent times tended to look down upon coin collecting as a capitalist, bourgeois thing, and it is yet to rebuild to it's former level. This high demand also feeds back into supply; if the vast majority of coins of a certain type are already soaked up by die-hard collectors who will never sell at any price, this reduces the "available supply" of those coins that are actually for sale.
On this basis I would conclude that, with the exception of gold coins, it's largely increased demand, rather than reduced supply, that is the primary cause of the price disparity.
The preponderance of coin collecting in the US is a cultural thing; I can give a couple of examples to illustrate this.
Here in Australia, we think a "large coin show" is one with thirty or forty dealers present. There are only three to five of these "large coin shows" per year in the country.
A few years ago I met an American coin collector who emigrated from America to Bowen, a small town in tropical north Queensland. When he arrived, he was astonished to find that the nearest coin dealer was in Mackay, 200 km away (who occasionally made the trip up to the local flea market in Bowen), and the nearest coin club was in Brisbane, 1200 km away. He told me that back in the States, a town the size of Bowen (population about 8000) would probably have a coin club and a couple of dealers. I understand that there are parts of the US that are like this; but here in Australia, the whole country is like this.
There are several possible contributing factors that could help explain this difference in cultural attitude to coin collecting. Coin collecting is an expensive hobby. After all, to "collect coins" at it's most basic level, you need to have enough spare, non-essential money sitting around that you can simply put a few pieces of money aside and choose never to spend them. America is a wealthy country, and has been consistently so (except for a few blips, like the Great Depression) for a century and a half now; more of you have been able to afford to collect coins than in, say, 20th century Africa or 19th century Europe.
The provision of information is also key to sustaining a large collector base, yet here we have a catch-22: no-one will publish vast quantities of books if there are no collectors out there to buy them, yet the collectors won't be out there if the books aren't there to encourage them. They both have to build up slowly together; it's had more time to build up in the US than elsewhere.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
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