Another interesting letter from Larry Shepherd

Julian · January 16, 2010 5:05AM

For the record, I agree with the decision.

Dear ANA Member Dealer,
Beginning with the ANA National Money Show in Fort Worth, early birds will no longer have access to the bourse during dealer set-up. It’s a matter of fairness.
During my two decades as an ANA member dealer, I watched in extreme frustration as early birds combed the bourse floor for the best numismatic material available – leaving smaller dealers like me in a quandary: Do we set up our tables and have them ready for the show, or do we leave our tables to compete against the early birds?
These early bird buyers have, historically, been given an unfair advantage. While dealers invest hundreds or thousands of dollars buying bourse tables, purchasing advertising and sponsorships, staying at our hotels, and eating at local restaurants, early birds pay a small fraction of that amount to, essentially, remove the best material from the floor – at the expense of many dealers who can’t simultaneously set up a table and work the bourse. Furthermore, these early birds often complete their buying sprees, exit the convention site and head for home before the show even opens.
Meantime, fewer collectors are willing to invest the time and money to attend shows because, as I’ve heard time and time again, the best material is often gone by the time the shows open to the public. If early trading was limited to bourse dealers, chances are that most would resell that same sought-after numismatic material to an eager public once the show opens.
While it’s true that early birds generate revenue for dealers, it’s my belief that those same buyers would still attend our shows and purchase their material during public hours. Collectors will be more willing to invest the time and expense of attending the show if they know the best inventory has not been picked over before they arrive. I do not believe this change will result in the loss of business over the course of the show; in fact I believe it may encourage greater competition among buyers of limited merchandise. Conversely, I believe allowing early entry to a limited few is very damaging to the show’s success.
I have put a lot of thought into this, drawing on my experience as a dealer, collector and, for nearly two years, Executive Director of this Association. The ANA should not be in the business of selling favorable treatment to the detriment of those who purchase tables and support our shows. If anyone should get priority, it is the dealers who buy the bourse tables – and I believe everyone would agree that our collector members should all be treated equally. In my opinion, there is just no good reason to give early birds unfair advantage over our dealers or collectors.
I understand that those who traditionally purchase early bird credentials will not like this decision, and I suspect some dealers may also be concerned. But it’s my honest opinion that those who currently purchase early bird badges will attend our shows, regardless. After all, many make a living buying and selling coins – and ANA shows will still have the best inventories available. I believe more collectors will be willing to return to our shows if they feel they can compete fairly for the best material, and any numismatic items traded early among dealers will then be displayed for sale during public hours.
Your feedback is extremely important to me and the ANA Board of Governors. If you think we are doing the right thing, tell us by replying to this email and writing, “agree.” If you think we are wrong, please reply and write, “disagree.” Should you have any additional questions or comments, please send me an email at shepherd@money.org.
I thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Larry Shepherd, Executive Director
American Numismatic Association

RYK · January 16, 2010 5:15AM

I disagree with Mr. Shepherd. I often buy the Early Bird and rarely does it get me something that I would not get later. I buy it because I am excited to get into the show, schmooze, take it all in, meet friends, etc.

Much of the real dealing goes on before the show, in hotel rooms, at pre-shows, etc.

Why have collectors attend at all? They might get a coin that a dealer would have purchased had he come to the table ten minutes later.

Pushkin · January 16, 2010 5:16AM

Bird flu

I assume that whoever runs a show has the right to set the rules. If it is an organization and the members disagree then they should change the organization's management or quit the organization. For me personally, I don't really care that much and I'm an ANA member.

P.S. Personally, I always liked the idea of early birds because I have difficulty dealing with crowds.

blu62vette · January 16, 2010 5:21AM

I dont like this.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 16, 2010 5:32AM

Per these rules, no one would be prevented from getting into the show during dealer hours, as long as they buy a table. Seems reasonable to me.

aficoinado · January 16, 2010 5:40AM

Bring extra staff and let them set up the table while you scour the tables.

PTVETTER · January 16, 2010 5:50AM

this could get very interesting

I understand the dealer setup and have to agree, some, not all, early birds pick up my inventory while I'm setting up without asking.

Do Not bother me when I am setting up!
Let me do my job of setting up before you bother me and mix up my intentory.

When I'm set up ready to do busines I turn my lights on.
At that time I'm ready to do business, bring out the money.

TomB · January 16, 2010 6:01AM

I have often purchased an early bird badge for both the ANA and Baltimore shows and at other times have set up my own table at smaller monthly and regional shows. Therefore, while having never been a full-time dealer, I have had some experience on both ends of this issue. In truth, I do not mind this idea too much, but I lean toward disagreeing with it. To me, it seems that the best material that might be purchased on a Wednesday afternoon during setup would be gone first thing Thursday morning during the normal bourse session, which means that the great bulk of those who attend the show from late Thursday through Saturday or Sunday would never be affected by the change. Those most likely to be affected would be those who make the effort to come to the show during dealer setup or early on Thursday. Personally, I have used the early time at these shows more for catching up with other collectors and dealers than for buying coins, but I may very well be in the minority with respect to this issue. Overall, it would make me less likely to purchase an early bird badge for a show (to enter early from Thursday through Saturday or Sunday) and this, in turn, would make me much more likley to skip the show entirely.

JCMhouston · January 16, 2010 6:12AM

Personally I believe the ANA is about collectors, Larry seems to think it's about dealers.

bidask · January 16, 2010 6:25AM

I watched in extreme frustration as early birds combed the bourse floor for the best numismatic material available – leaving smaller dealers..... Maybe Mr. Shepard should not be a dealer.........if he is not making it and being competitive as a dealer outside of shows by getting coins,.... implementing this rule won't make it any better for him either, imo.

Besides this rule would make it less competitive for dealers by restricting the flow of buyers and sellers during early bird hours, not more competitive. Less competiton for coins means lower prices. I would not like this either as a dealer or early bird collector by restricting competiton.

And frankly outside of dealers paying for tables, the argument that they 'spend more' is getting old. Collectors also pay for transportation, meals, hotels, etc.

And dealers, by paying for a table, get the benefit of deals brought to them by the public.

What I am finding out is that if you want in on the best coins you should work with one or two prefered dealers who are connected in coin deal flows......thats how you really get great coins anyway.

Amigo · January 16, 2010 6:33AM

I agree 100%

pheh · January 16, 2010 6:47AM

Has-beens and never-weres make rules for environments in which they can't compete or adapt. But personally, I could care less one way or the other. I've used early bird passes and dealer badges and have never had a complaint from a dealer from whom I was buying.

That said I find the wording of this "decision" both disturbing and sad:

"matter of fairness"
"smaller dealers like me"
"unfair advantage"

And this little twist of logic is so contrived I challenge anyone to reasonably turn it into a sound argument:

"If early trading was limited to bourse dealers, chances are that most would resell that same sought-after numismatic material to an eager public once the show opens."

Nope, in the end, those dealers that want to move inventory will simply do more business outside the show in hotel rooms. And in the end, this decision will do little more than temporarily placate those dealers with far bigger problems than a little competition from "early birds".

Longacre · January 16, 2010 6:48AM

What is to prevent a band of dealers doing transactions off the bourse, such as in hotel rooms, over dinner, or somewhere else? Personally, I thought that a fair amount of transactions occur before the show even starts.

holeinone1972 · January 16, 2010 6:50AM

I'm nobody but it sounds like they are frustrated about not being able to cherrypick other dealers, and then marking up the coin for sale again 1 hour later.

Give me a break! Jeez!

Pushkin · January 16, 2010 7:02AM

<< What is to prevent a band of dealers doing transactions off the bourse, such as in hotel rooms, over dinner, or somewhere else? Personally, I thought that a fair amount of transactions occur before the show even starts. >>

I'm shocked!

ColonialCoinUnion · January 16, 2010 7:05AM

<< Bring extra staff and let them set up the table while you scour the tables. >>

Good idea. Next time we'll bring the entire marketing department, half of shipping, all of the guys who work in IT and our 75 top performers in the customer service area.

shorecoll · January 16, 2010 7:22AM

Geez guys, ANA has two shows a year...that's not going to change the whole world.

In terms of supporting collectors, if the vest-pocket guys scoop up a lot of the good stuff with early-bird badges, that really isn't fair to collectors.

EagleEye · January 16, 2010 7:31AM

I think that there is no added monetary benefit to the ANA to institute this. It is only a fairness issue. It also is not a decision that is necessarily a detriment to collectors. It might give average collectors a better experience. I don't see the down-side, but I don't get early-bird badges. If I did, I guess I'd be a bit put-off by not being first in line. I think it's great that Larry is being pro-active on an issue that most people would not think of as being an issue.

RYK · January 16, 2010 7:36AM

I am going to soften my position a little bit. On one hand, it's like buying a ticket to the Super Bowl and not being allowed in until each team has had one possession. On the other hand, upon further reflection, I cannot think of a single instance in which I gained advantage over someone else by having an early bird ticket or dealer badge. I do not even recall buying anything during set-up, so it probably matters little to me.

I think that Mr. Sheperd's intention was to not allow the non table-holding dealers to maintain an unfair advantage over the table-holding dealers. The unintended consequence is that it also takes a jab at collectors. There may be instances when if I cannot get into the show at set-up, I am not going to go at all because of narrow time windows. C'est la vie.

IMO, the swift-footed vest pocket dealer will always have an advantage over the table-holders, in terms of scouring the bourse. It does not matter when you let them in.

TomB · January 16, 2010 7:36AM

<< I think it's great that Larry is being pro-active on an issue that most people would not think of as being an issue. >>

The flip side of that statement is that perhaps an issue is being made out of something that truly does not need the attention. Regardless, I would imagine that a number of dealers had complained about this topic to Larry and that this made him think about the show schedules. It might be that a more honest and simple approach in the email would be to state that those who pay for the tables want to maximize their profits with as many incremental markups on material as possible before releasing the material from the dealer circle to the collector circle.

bidask · January 16, 2010 7:46AM

I don't get that this letter was written first and foremost with the collector in mind. It seems it was written first and foremost with him in mind as a dealer.

Early birds, by definition, are collectors. All collectors can choose to pay and be an early bird. To me its just an extra few hours on the bourse at a modest cost.

WTCG · January 16, 2010 7:48AM

There are a million things I can say regarding this subject, but I'll keep it as short and simple as possible. I disagree with this new policy.

The argument against this policy roughly parallels the argument opponents of gun control make to support their claim: that the people who really want to get into the show early will easily find a way to do so while the good-intentioned aspiring earlybirds will be the ultimate losers out. The ANA should also remind themselves that the sale of earlybird badges is a formidable revenue generator.

Those early-entering, early departing, PQ material-finding sharks/ locusts that the letter strongly resents will still be on the bourse floor during setup sucking away all the good coins (without actually buying a table) whether this policy is in place or not.

RYK · January 16, 2010 7:51AM

It is usually pretty obvious who the vest pocket dealers are and who the collectors are. Nothing is forcing the table-holding dealers to sell their coins to them. Perhaps if they marked up their coins to the "sharks", rather than sell to them, the problem would be solved without eliminating the early bird badge program (and the revenue associated with it).

WTCG · January 16, 2010 7:53AM

<< 

<< Bring extra staff and let them set up the table while you scour the tables. >>

Good idea. Next time we'll bring the entire marketing department, half of shipping, all of the guys who work in IT and our 75 top performers in the customer service area. >>

Heritage does it, so why can't you?

TomB · January 16, 2010 7:58AM

You make a good point, RYK, and one I had meant to write about in the previous post. Nothing is forcing a dealer to have someone at a table during dealer setup, just as nothing forces a dealer to give a good price to someone if they do not want to sell that coin to someone at a particular level for whatever reason.

You know, the more I think of this, the more I think we can brainstorm to help these put upon dealers. To help the table buying dealers even more, perhaps Heritage or the other auction companies could limit auction lot review to only those who have paid for a table. After all, many collectors and vst pocket dealers review these auction lots while dealers are at their tables and this competition might then be forced to purchase coins sight unseen, through a table buying dealer after commission for review or directly from a table buying dealer after they acquire the coin for inventory. I'm certain we could come up with other ideas to help this pool, couldn't we?

Fletcher · January 16, 2010 8:03AM

wondercoin · January 16, 2010 8:06AM

Bad idea. Too many other milder solutions to this "problem" IMHO.

Wondercoin

Lakesammman · January 16, 2010 8:38AM

Well, shoot - last week I started a thread saying I LIKED what Shepard was doing............

coinguy1 · January 16, 2010 8:54AM

<< I don't get that this letter was written first and foremost with the collector in mind. It seems it was written first and foremost with him in mind as a dealer.

Early birds, by definition, are collectors. All collectors can choose to pay and be an early bird. To me its just an extra few hours on the bourse at a modest cost. >>

Actually, many early bird badges are sold to dealers.

coinkat · January 16, 2010 8:56AM

Sorry Julian:

I have the greatest respect for you as a dealer, a numismatist and as as person... and this is just one example why I am unable to join the ANA

bidask · January 16, 2010 9:00AM

<< 

<< I don't get that this letter was written first and foremost with the collector in mind. It seems it was written first and foremost with him in mind as a dealer.

Early birds, by definition, are collectors. All collectors can choose to pay and be an early bird. To me its just an extra few hours on the bourse at a modest cost. >>

Actually, many early bird badges are sold to dealers. >>

That may be, but the early bird admittance has been open to all collectors should they choose. I don't see any reasonable logic in what Larry wrote to restrict that in the future.

wondercoin · January 16, 2010 9:23AM

Even better ... charge a little bit more the next couple times for the early bird and donate ALL the proceeds to a worthy charity in Haiti.

Wondercoin

IGWT · January 16, 2010 9:25AM

I disagree with the change. By Mr. Shepherd's reasoning, collectors who are able to attend the first day a show opens have an unfair advantage over those who can't attend until the second day . . . and so on. Like RYK, I buy the early bird to catch up with dealers and other collectors before a show opens generally. I don't think I've purchased a single coin before a show opened to the public; but, I have sold during the early bird period because it's more relaxed. It sounds as though the decision has already been made. But, if so, perhaps the ANA will consider early bird badges for mornings after the show opens.

And, sorry to say, the letter reads as though Mr. Shepherd is using collectors as a stalking horse to promote "fairness" for smaller dealers.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 16, 2010 9:32AM

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category.

bidask · January 16, 2010 9:36AM

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

ColonialCoinUnion · January 16, 2010 9:39AM

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table.

TomB · January 16, 2010 9:42AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table. >>

Couldn't we just get around all of this by cancelling the show and having all dealers put their inventory online? In this was, no one has a perceived unfair advantage with respect to hours of attendance.

Nic · January 16, 2010 9:45AM

How many badges can you get with each summer ANA table?

K

bidask · January 16, 2010 9:47AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table. >>

Sorry, if dealers are not prepared by the time the show starts to sell and buy coins to the public and other dealers.......,whenever it opens,..... and have to resort now to some sort of new policy restricting the attendence of others,.......... I have to question my current membership to the ANA, and frankly who I do business with.

mozin · January 16, 2010 9:49AM

I agree with Larry Shepherd. The other alternative would be to charge early bird fees equal to half the cheapest table price.

Personally, I have not had much luck buying for my collection during dealer set-up time. I would not buy the early bird badge again. Just my experience.

leothelyon · January 16, 2010 9:51AM

I've considered this problem a number of times but figured, what can be done about it. There must be some advantage for someone with this type of set-up. I've used the EB myself whenever viewing coins before an auction held there so why not attend the show that day as well. I've also have assumed many of the EBs were local dealers with material to sell. This must be important to them if they're to find a buyer. And there must be a few EBs looking for material for their clients who likely are paying 10% above the market value which would cover most dealer's EB expenses.
I really don't know folks. I'm just some small time collector who noticed that much of what I've added hasn't been said (change that to, "mentioned") yet.

Leo

shish · January 16, 2010 9:51AM

Mr. Sheppard states "I have put a lot of thought into this, drawing on my experience as a dealer, collector and, for nearly two years, Executive Director of this Association." I believe this is a poorly thought out response to a few complaints about a practice that was established many years ago, has been popular with numismatists, and is open to all. I've never heard a dealer complain about numismatists (dealers or collectors) buying early bird badges and buying up all the good material. Show organizers have advertised and encouraged collectors to come early to buy, sell, and trade with dealers for a fee. Although this new policy was likely based on issues of fairness it is a policy of exclusion. I don't understand how this policy helps the ANA, dealers, or collectors and that's why I hope Mr. Sheppard and the board reevaluate this decision. Now is the time when the ANA leadership should be trying to include more people in the ANA and it's events. Sad

bidask · January 16, 2010 9:56AM

<< I agree with Larry Shepherd. The other alternative would be to charge early bird fees equal to half the cheapest table price.

Personally, I have not had much luck buying for my collection during dealer set-up time. I would not buy the early bird badge again. Just my experience. >>

If your experience is that you have NOT found it particularly advantageous to buy coins during dealer set up by not having much luck buying for your collection, that is a testimony that flies in the face
of Larry's argument. So why would you want to restrict/impose on others by raising the price of early bird fees to half the cheapest table price?

mrpotatoheadd · January 16, 2010 10:01AM

Regardless of what the ANA decides to do, some people will be happy and some won't.

ColonialCoinUnion · January 16, 2010 10:12AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table. >>

Sorry, if dealers are not prepared by the time the show starts to sell and buy coins to the public and other dealers.......,whenever it opens,..... and have to resort now to some sort of new policy restricting the attendence of others,.......... I have to question my current membership to the ANA, and frankly who I do business with. >>

Why should a collector who can afford an expensive early bird badge get an advantage over a collector who cannot? The ANA should not be an organization that favors only wealthy collectors.

TomB · January 16, 2010 10:16AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table. >>

Sorry, if dealers are not prepared by the time the show starts to sell and buy coins to the public and other dealers.......,whenever it opens,..... and have to resort now to some sort of new policy restricting the attendence of others,.......... I have to question my current membership to the ANA, and frankly who I do business with. >>

Why should a collector who can afford an expensive early bird badge get an advantage over a collector who cannot? The ANA should not be an organization that favors only wealthy collectors. >>

Then by your logic why should the ANA put on any show at all since the vast majority of collectors cannot afford to attend such shows?

bidask · January 16, 2010 10:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Early birds, by definition, are collectors. >>

Not true. Early Birds, are, by definition, people who want to get into the show during dealer hours without buying a table. Lots of dealers, vest pocket and otherwise, fall into that category. >>

Yes, but getting into the show during 'dealer hours' is open to all collectors as well should they choose, (ie: its open to the public)......

>>

Right. Just buy a table. >>

Sorry, if dealers are not prepared by the time the show starts to sell and buy coins to the public and other dealers.......,whenever it opens,..... and have to resort now to some sort of new policy restricting the attendence of others,.......... I have to question my current membership to the ANA, and frankly who I do business with. >>

Why should a collector who can afford an expensive early bird badge get an advantage over a collector who cannot? The ANA should not be an organization that favors only wealthy collectors. >>

That argument sounds a bit ingenuious. Wealthy collectors normally don't buy the same kinds of coins that collectors who truly cannot afford an EB badge buy.

Which means there are most likely plenty of specimans around for the kind of coins they do buy whether they came in on a EB day or the next day. I do not envision a collecting disadvantage, relative to this discussion, for a collector who truly cannot afford an EB badge at an ANA show. Do you?

Fletcher · January 16, 2010 10:25AM

<< Why should a collector who can afford an expensive early bird badge get an advantage over a collector who cannot? >>

Because this is still America ... not ObamAmerica.

IGWT · January 16, 2010 10:27AM

Then by your logic why should the ANA put on any show at all since the vast majority of collectors cannot afford to attend such shows?

Exactly. The new policy has nothing to do with collectors; it has everything to do with dealers.

illini420 · January 16, 2010 10:30AM

come on guys, the dealers just need more time to buy and sell from each other so they can each profit a little bit from each coin before it ends up in a collector's hand at maybe 25% or so higher than dealer #1 was willing to sell it for.

coinguy1 · January 16, 2010 10:32AM

For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you

- why not contact Larry Shepherd directly and voice your disapproval?

Another interesting letter from Larry Shepherd

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