Ebay says nothing wrong with misleading $650 auction for an empty box.

Frankcoins · January 8, 2010 3:00PM

The ebay auction titled 2008 W $50 Gold Buffalo/2008 W $50 UNC Gold Buffalo/BOX
ended with a winning bid of $650. I wrote to eBay about this fraudulent auction, especially since the disclaimer that it was only an empty box was in small print and not in
the auction title. Furthermore, the slash before the word "box" is understood to mean "AND" where space is limited, such as Unc 1884 Carson City Dollar/Box/Cert or a
combination AM/FM/Weather radio.

My letter explaining this to eBay was answered thusly:

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2010 14:49:18 -0700 (MST)
From: eBay Customer Support - rswebhelp <rswebhelp@ebay.com>
To: <frank@frankcoins.com>
Message-ID: <19784415.706785.1262900959056.JavaMail.stkana1@rhv-vmkas-104>
Subject: Re: BN%P10072 Selling Coins [#US A11 100881T ?01 ]
(KMM13689366I15977L0KM)

Dear eBay Member,

Thanks for reporting listing 250556035550 to us.

I investigated this listing and found that it does not violate our
Selling Currency policy as the policy does not deal with coin boxes,
only with coins. There is no prohibition on selling boxes.

In the future, try using the "Report item" link on the right side of the
listing. It's the fastest and easiest way to report a listing.

Again, thank you for the report.

Sincerely,

Heidi
eBay Customer Support

This is a disgrace, and the FTC and post office and the ANA should really hammer ebay for knowingly allowing this auction to end with a winning
bidder after being warned . This is right up there (but a bigger loss of money) with the "$99 X-Box box" (they got a box) and
"CHECK THE PHOTO! WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY GET" (a photo)

If you have a few minutes this weekend, forward this message to your local paper, news radio station, maybe Mr. Moy of the US Mint. Ebay deserves some
wide publicity for their ever increasing stupidity and failure to protect their buyers.

And it was Heidi that pulled my auction a couple of years ago of a 1950 Franklin in Proof 65 Cameo in a PCI slab signed by Rick Tomaska with the notation that it
was used as a reference coin for PCGS's graders when Tomaska helped PCGS develop their standards for DCAM/CAM 1950-1970 Proofs

Tomaska actually WROTE THE BOOK FOR THESE COINS

Ebay suspended me for 10 days, and Heidi said the history of that coin doesn't change the fact that I deliberately chose to violate eBay's
Counterfeit Coin policy.

SilverEagles92 · January 8, 2010 3:02PM

I don't see anything misleading. He states it several times in the description.

illini420 · January 8, 2010 3:16PM

seems clear to me, there's a subtitle that says it's an empty box and no coin is pictured anywhere. I just can't believe people would even pay 1/100th of that price for an empty box.

Frankcoins · January 8, 2010 3:28PM

<< Frank,
what is your issue with ebay? This ebay seller that you bring up and undeservingly shows no photo of any coin, only an empty box and in his/her decription he clearly states repeatedly over and over and all over that there is no coin just an empty box. He couldn't make it any clearer. >>

My issue with Ebay is that the ad is clearly deceptive and in violation of the law. It was listed under the category of Gold Coins. It should have been listed under coin holders and supplies. And it was DELIBERATE DECEPTION set up to
cheat last minute snipers trying to buy gold under melt. Exactly the same as selling a used car engine under the category of CARS rather than PARTS and using the title

2007 Mustang GT/LOW MILEAGE/4.6-liter V8 engine!

ChrisRx · January 8, 2010 3:29PM

TrustNo1 · January 8, 2010 3:34PM

who the hell bid on it??? and why? or could he have edited listing late after bids were in but before the deadline?

Bochiman · January 8, 2010 3:34PM

There's no law that states which category one has to use.
I can see listing a box that held a certain coin IN THAT coin's category. Some folks would not think to look in "coin holders/supplies".
If the winning bidder knew what they were getting with that bid, and it was legit, I have no issues with it.

WinPitcher · January 8, 2010 3:42PM

WELCOME TO THIS VERY RARE ITEM.....THIS IS A EMPTY BOX NO COIN!!! NO COIN, THIS IS A EMPTY BOX!!! 2008W $50 UNC BOX, COA, JUST AS YOU SEE IN THE PHOTOS! IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE SMART ONES THAT PURCHASED THE 08 W $50 GOLD BUFFALOS FOR A HUGE INVESTMENT!!!!!! GRADED AND DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL PACKAGING, THIS IS MAYBE WHAT YOU WANT. TIME IS RUNNING OUT, THEY ONLY DID JUST OVER 3K SINGLE 1 OUNCE 08 W BUFFALOS. THIS BOX IS 100% CLEAN, NONE SMOKING HOME, ALWAYS SEALED IN PLASTIC, !!!!! USA SALES ONLY!!!!! AGAIN THIS IS A EMPTY BOX WITH NO COIN. THE PHOTOS YOU SEE IS THE ITEM YOU GET.

Methinks the bidders need to read what they are bidding on.

Steve

doh · January 8, 2010 3:47PM

<< I don't see anything misleading. He states it several times in the description. >>

InternetJunky · January 8, 2010 3:50PM

I don't think its misleading at all. I glanced at it for about 10 seconds and saw "empty box" at least twice

TrustNo1 · January 8, 2010 3:58PM

will be interesting to see if feedback is left on this transaction.....something fishy.

Kameo · January 8, 2010 5:09PM

<< In the future, try using the "Report item" link on the right side of the >>

You see!! It's your fault!!

derryb · January 8, 2010 6:14PM

"And it was DELIBERATE DECEPTION set up to cheat last minute snipers trying to buy gold under melt."

Last minute snipers, as well as all buyers, should read the description before bidding.

"If you have a few minutes this weekend, forward this message to your local paper, news radio station, maybe Mr. Moy of the US Mint. Ebay deserves some
wide publicity for their ever increasing stupidity and failure to protect their buyers."

I'm sure that if the buyer does not received WHAT WAS DESCRIBED, then Ebay will protect the buyer.

grote15 · January 8, 2010 6:20PM

The listing was not misleading at all...any bidder with a 2nd grade education could understand what was being offered here...if someone chooses to bid without reading what is being offered for sale, it's rather difficult to have any sympathy for them, especially when said bidder is trying to potentially rip off the seller by sniping a 1 oz. gold coin at half spot. I think the OP is way off base here.

Kameo · January 8, 2010 6:49PM

<< The listing was not misleading at all...any bidder with a 2nd grade education could understand what was being offered here...if someone chooses to bid without reading what is being offered for sale, it's rather difficult to have any sympathy for them, especially when said bidder is trying to potentially rip off the seller by sniping a 1 oz. gold coin at half spot. I think the OP is way off base here. >>

Translation: read the fine print morons.

Frankcoins · January 8, 2010 8:52PM

<< The listing was not misleading at all...any bidder with a 2nd grade education could understand what was being offered here...if someone chooses to bid without reading what is being offered for sale, it's rather difficult to have any sympathy for them, especially when said bidder is trying to potentially rip off the seller by sniping a 1 oz. gold coin at half spot. I think the OP is way off base here. >>

Try this and you could easily be facing a federal indictment for wire fraud.

I love how people complain about Robert Chambers charging double wholesale for coins on TV, but they defend this ebay crook!

In this case there is clearly no meeting of the minds between seller and buyer and therefore no contract. If the seller takes steps to affirmatively create the mis-impression (such as listing a worthelss item on Ebay) and accepts value, then it is fraud, and since he used the Internet, it's wire fraud, and since it involved interstate commerce (if the buyer is from another state) it's a federal offense.

Check out how Judge Judy views a similar listing on ebay.

Broadstruck · January 8, 2010 9:13PM

Aren't these Mint Original Packaging Materials normally a $5-10 item

Guess none of the bidders as children ever read The Emperor's New Clothes

ebaytrader · January 8, 2010 9:20PM

<< And it was Heidi that pulled my auction a couple of years ago ... >>

Umm, Frank, Heidi is a generic name used by ¾ of the feepay customer support ppl.

Oh, and there's nothing misleading aboot the auction.

golfer72 · January 8, 2010 9:22PM

Nothing wrong with that Auction. It clearly states empty box. Me thinks the OP may have a seperate beef with Ebay over something else?

UncleJoe · January 8, 2010 9:25PM

>>>Check out how Judge Judy views a similar listing on ebay.<<<

While I share with your concerns of non-coins being listed under Coin titles and listings crafted to sell someone a photo, this particular auction did everything it could to ensure that a bidder knew that there was no coin. Unlike the auctions crafted to sell someone a photo, this auction is actually selling something of value. You and I may not agree with the final price but we have seen materials go for big prices before. In addition, there were 4 bidders all of whom bid well before the end of the auction, no snipes. I have to believe that they knew what they were bidding on and if not, they had plenty of time to check the auction to make sure they knew what they were bidding on. No foul IMO.

Joe.

pennyannie · January 8, 2010 9:33PM

I have sold some old early commen boxes for quite a bit of money, not as much as this buff box but pretty decent. I am not a big fan of this type of auction but the seller did describe what he was selling. I am amazed at the number of bidders that do not read the descriptions. I know they do not from the questions they have asked me about items for sale.

RYK · January 8, 2010 9:40PM

Here's a thought:

Since there seems to be quite a few people who feel that the auction is not misleading, why not leave it up to the buyer to decide? If he feels he did not get what he paid for, it would be easy enough to get a PayPal reversal for "item not as described".

08HALA20 · January 8, 2010 9:45PM

This is a poor example of a scammer auction.

The only thing incorrect is the following description part:

"ALWAYS SEALED IN PLASTIC."

Obviously the coin was removed and so the box was not always sealed in plastic.

Otherwise auction seems ok to me.

Joe

UncleJoe · January 8, 2010 9:47PM

<< Here's a thought:

Since there seems to be quite a few people who feel that the auction is not misleading, why not leave it up to the buyer to decide? If he feels he did not get what he paid for, it would be easy enough to get a PayPal reversal for "item not as described". >>

IMO, I cannot see PayPal reversing this. The seller would have to let the buyer out.

Joe.

iras4 · January 8, 2010 10:10PM

Frank, Frank, Frank. I as much as anyone else, am also frustrated and angry over many of eBay's policies, especially the REQUIREMENT that buyers use PayPal to pay for winnings. With fees as high as 3.9% for PayPal plus eBay fees as high as 8% or even more, unless sellers are hawking garage sale junk, an eBay sale can often mean a significant loss for the seller.

But, I digress. In the case of the nice gold Buffalo BOX, the seller was quite clear on exactly what is was he was selling! The Judge Judy link you provided was entertaining but not in any way similar. I like your rightous indignation, Frank, I do. But in this case it's been misdirected. Move along folks. Nothing to see here. Make sure to see the bearded lady in our next midway extravaganza.

On another note and completely off topic, I am now home from a harrowing three weeks in hospital and finally resolving some thorny issues. I discovered I was quite near death when I was zipped open two weeks ago, but I am now out of the woods. Mending will take at least twelve
weeks only to face another surgery, and unlike Levi Johnston, I'm afraid my modeling days are finally over. I need to lose weight, but 27 lbs in three weeks was too much and I'm feeling weak as a kitten. That will improve with some hard work. Thanks to all who wrote both on the forums and by email.

Ira Stein

jdimmick · January 8, 2010 10:11PM

I am betting that the winner of this item knew exactly what it was, and paid a price for it. Some of these boxes make the difference in hundreds of dollars on what you can get, now 600 does seem far fetched, but I was in a postion where I would have paid 200+ bucks for a Proof gold eagle box last month, as it was the difference between getting 1700 and 2100 for the same coin!!!!!

dantheman984 · January 8, 2010 10:20PM

<< I am betting that the winner of this item knew exactly what it was, and paid a price for it. Some of these boxes make the difference in hundreds of dollars on what you can get, now 600 does seem far fetched, but I was in a postion where I would have paid 200+ bucks for a Proof gold eagle box last month, as it was the difference between getting 1700 and 2100 for the same coin!!!!! >>

I agree.

WinPitcher · January 8, 2010 10:49PM

If the seller takes steps to affirmatively create the mis-impression (such as listing a worthelss item on Ebay)

Frank it may be worthless to you but for someone that needs that box it might not be.

Not sure why you chose this specific auction and seller. Did you have a problem with him previous to this?

Steve

Weiss · January 8, 2010 11:09PM

No fraud, no deception.

garrynot · January 8, 2010 11:16PM

Maybe I should start selling the envelopes my coins come in. "This package once held an 1884-CC dollar...." I am missing an opportunity here.

Gemineye · January 8, 2010 11:21PM

Nothing wrong with this auction Frank........P.T.Barnum will collect his fee....!!!!....

barbershopper · January 8, 2010 11:24PM

I don't think anyone who reads that listing could miss the fact that they're selling an empty box.
It says so several times.
JMHO.

JT

kranky · January 8, 2010 11:28PM

I detest people trying to fool buyers with misleading auction text, but in this case I believe the seller was appropriately (if not 100% completely) upfront.

I do feel the seller was hoping to lure a buyer who didn't read the page closely, due to the "no return" policy. But the fact it was an empty box was stated 6 times that I could find, along with the photo that shows an empty box with no coin.

Mar327 · January 8, 2010 11:36PM

I didn't like the title, didn't see the subtitle, and didn't like his use of all caps. But the description was clear and apparently that's what those boxes have been selling for.

itsnotjustme · January 8, 2010 11:43PM

Here is another that sold for $575. Different seller. Perhaps this is fair market value for this item.

Text

joz350 · January 8, 2010 11:44PM

Is this an issue with the auction or that the packaging is important to some collectors?
I really don't see an issue with the listing. Early on when I bought a couple to cover some slabbed coins for about 200 each I thought it that was crazy money, guess I did alright after all.

fcloud · January 8, 2010 11:46PM

It is too bad people are willing to pay so much for an empty box, but they stated in the description empty box and no coin multiple times. The description is very clear, the photo shows no coin and there is no where in the listing where the say coin included. One of these sold the other day for about $500, so this is a bit higher than that one. Some people who purchased these graded without a box must simply feel this low mintage coin has to have the box.

sinin1 · January 8, 2010 11:49PM

please post pics when your box arrives

jakeblue · January 8, 2010 11:55PM

Check his recent feedback. He sold another box for $513 (without capsule in the pic) and a proof box for $49. Proof boxes (without capsule) must not carry the same value. The buyer of this box, if the capsule was included, may have paid current market value with it included.

coindeuce · January 8, 2010 11:57PM

I would have been more concerned about the possibility of the box and COA being a cheap knock off. Stupid premiums for Mint packaging like the one discussed here are what fuel the black market for knock off material. Mass market promoters have churned out hundreds of thousands of replica Proof / Mint set envelopes in the past, for sets that were purchased at very low wholesale levels sans packaging. Shame on the general public for valuing packaging that adds no real numismatic value.

joz350 · January 9, 2010 12:07AM

Shame on the general public for valuing packaging that adds no real numismatic value.

A plastic slab could be seen in the same light, "real" is pretty subjective.

roadrunner · January 9, 2010 12:15AM

The title was blatantly misleading, no question

Not in my opinion......it just wasn't as patently obvious as the description where box only was listed 6 separate times. If I saw the "/box" in the title then immediately I would have wondered if this was just for a box as there are multiple ways to interpret a "forward slash." Anyone bidding based on a title only with no consideration for photos, seller's FB rating, payment methods, return privileges, shipping fees, etc. is a fool. And they are soon parted from their money. The buyer may very well have known they were bidding on an empty box.

roadrunner

OPA · January 9, 2010 12:26AM

I see nothing wrong with that auction. It appears that the OP did not do his homework before posting his concern. The 2008 proof empty gold boxes are and have been selling for big bucks on eBay. Not sure if it has something to do with Gold IRA's...somebody mentioned, in order to qualify, you must have the OGP

drfish · January 9, 2010 12:38AM

In ebay's history three unc boxes have been sold for $499,$575 and $650.Two are active with a BIN of $620 and a starting bid of $599(no bids yet).

08HALA20 · January 9, 2010 12:53AM

<< The title was blatantly misleading, no question

Not in my opinion......it just wasn't as patently obvious as the description where box only was listed 6 separate times. If I saw the "/box" in the title then immediately I would have wondered if this was just for a box as there are multiple ways to interpret a "forward slash." Anyone bidding based on a title only with no consideration for photos, seller's FB rating, payment methods, return privileges, shipping fees, etc. is a fool. And they are soon parted from their money. The buyer may very well have known they were bidding on an empty box.

roadrunner >>

The sub title also states an empty box.

Joe

lcoopie · January 9, 2010 1:06AM

as there is no coin involved
this is the wrong forum

CaptHenway · January 9, 2010 1:09AM

"THIS WAY TO THE EGRESS!"

P. T. Barnum

lope208 · January 9, 2010 2:08AM

<< I see nothing wrong with that auction. It appears that the OP did not do his homework before posting his concern. The 2008 proof empty gold boxes are and have been selling for big bucks on eBay. Not sure if it has something to do with Gold IRA's...somebody mentioned, in order to qualify, you must have the OGP >>

BINGO! Can't believe more people didn't mention this. I recently sold an intact 1993 Gold Eagle Proof Set to a dealer and he literally quoted me I think $1500 LESS if I did not have the OGP. Luckily I did. But if you are trying to add coins to an IRA, you had better have the box.

Frank- The auction isn't even misleading in the first place. I understand your points, but the sniper comment makes me laugh. The eBay bidder has to "confirm" their bid and agree to have READ THE ACTUAL DESCRIPTION. If you or someone else throws in a last minute bid for an item they didn't read, well, too bad. Personal Responsibility and Logic need to play a larger role in people's lives today. Just my thoughts.

dlmtorts · January 9, 2010 2:09AM

I cant believe the responses here. IMO the auction was clearly set up to lure buyers who did not read the description. Surely none of you believe that FMV of the box is $500 - $650!!! While I am certainly in the minority of the responses here, I certainly believe that I am in the MORAL majority who would believe this auction was misleading and unfair. I know that none of the responders here and the members of this Board would post an auction like this. I mean no offense to any other opinions. While technically reading the auction completely might lead to a conclusion that in its entirety the auction was fair, I simply do not believe that should be the test of the fairness of the auction. I think the intent and the effect are important as well.

crazyhounddog · January 9, 2010 2:15AM

<< I don't think its misleading at all. I glanced at it for about 10 seconds and saw "empty box" at least twice

>>

I agree 100% not misleading at all...Maybe the buyers should read the listing...

Ebay says nothing wrong with misleading $650 auction for an empty box.

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