PCGS Genuine: One year later

RYK · December 12, 2009 3:21AM

It's been about one year since the official roll out of the "PCGS Genuine" holder, for coins that did not meet the criteria for regular grading. Many folks were predicting that that this would be detrimental to PCGS' brand, that NGC would gain market share at PCGS' expense, etc.

One year later, I think that PCGS Genuine is now widely accepted in the marketplace and the move caused NGC to change its own policy toward encapsulating problem coins.

I have one PCGS Genuine coin and a couple likely ones in the oven. Post one if you have on, and feel free to comment on the service, one year later.

JRocco · December 12, 2009 3:26AM

I think the service has become a little too convenient for PCGS.
And can I say....overused?

pakasmom · December 12, 2009 3:28AM

As a novice collector, I was advocating for a "genuine" service for a couple of years before it happened.
It gives new collectors the piece of mind necessary to enter into the hobby.

lava · December 12, 2009 3:48AM

I think guys would prefer a net grade, which is kind of Mickey Mouse, but gives ANACS a nice little niche of its own.

Unknown · December 12, 2009 3:59AM

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tmcsr69 · December 12, 2009 4:02AM

<< I think the service has become a little too convenient for PCGS.
And can I say....overused? >>

I still much prefer the genuine slab over the body bags. There have been times I felt the BB was over used. IMHO, a coin in a genuine slab has value-in a BB is useless.

rld14 · December 12, 2009 4:04AM

<< I think pcgs should just sell empty blank slabs to the public with blank labels to allows collectors who are interersted to type whatever they want on it. Kind of like the slabs they sell in Coin Values mag. IMHO Genuine designation is worthless, PCGS might as well type on the lable "Not Made In China", becasue that is all it means to me, nothing more nothing less. >>

I think that in a lot of instances it's a very good thing. Take a scratched $3 gold piece. That coin SURELY is more marketable in a PCGS Genuine holder than in a flip.

AUandAG · December 12, 2009 4:07AM

Dang, I can't seem to get even one! I had 3 coins on my last submission that I thought
would genuine and dang if they all didn't get graded! 0 for 3. Hate it when it happens,
thought I knew something about grading.

bob

Fairlaneman · December 12, 2009 4:14AM

"It gives new collectors the piece of mind necessary to enter into the hobby."

How so?

I can see the genuine service giving peace of mind only if new collectors buy only gold, rare key dates and brightly toned coins. Outside of that it seems worthless. What it has did is let less than stellar sellers confirm a coin is genuine with their own grade attached when selling.

Ken

kaz · December 12, 2009 4:20AM

I believe it's a good thing, in terms of authentication. It also helps protect the coin. RYK, what is the supposed 'problem' with your Bust Left Q.E.?

smokincoin · December 12, 2009 4:29AM

Quick, hand held pics of one of my favorites:

I have two such "genuine" slabbed coins. I like them both. I wish a "would've been" grade would've been included somewhere along the process.

FredF · December 12, 2009 4:32AM

I own one genuine coin. A late-1880's $5 gold piece that I have personally owned for almost 40 years and it sat in the same holder for all but the last 6 months when it moved into a PCGS slab. I don't see the cleaning that they say they see, but since it's a coin I'm not selling and I only sent it in because the 40-year-old holder had a screw fall out of it, I am fine with it the way it is. So in this case, the genuine holder is much better than the BB because I at least got a holder out of it

.

-Fred

RYK · December 12, 2009 4:43AM

<< I believe it's a good thing, in terms of authentication. It also helps protect the coin. RYK, what is the supposed 'problem' with your Bust Left Q.E.? >>

It's got an old cleaning and, perhaps, "altered surfaces". I have seen a whole lot worse in regular holders.

Unknown · December 12, 2009 4:55AM

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291fifth · December 12, 2009 5:02AM

I still think they should give the coin a grade and state the defect.

Examples of how I would word the label:

"AU55 details but cleaned."

"XF 45 details but with rim bumps."

"MS65 but weakly struck."

ziggy29 · December 12, 2009 5:06AM

I do think it is a good idea to encapsulate and guarantee authenticity with the trusted folks of PCGS and to allow them to be used as basal state in the PCGS registry, but I continue to maintain that they should have "branded" them with a different name, as NGC did with NCS. Many people specifically searched for PCGS coins in order to avoid sifting through all the problem coins, and using the PCGS brand name with the problem coins makes that less feasible.

ecichlid · December 12, 2009 5:09AM

"MS65 but weakly struck."

Is weakly struck a reason for a genuine slab??!!

TwoSides2aCoin · December 12, 2009 5:14AM

My last submission was a major disappointment seeing it in a "Gennie".
I sold it to a guy rather than cracking it out, dipping it and selling it RAW as an MS__ The professional doctor will get to it and it's probably going to come up in auction for thousands more, soon enough (if it's not flipped already).

So that's business... and where the coin actually goes ? ...that's someone else's business and no skin off my nose. I made a respectable profit. Ah, the Gennie holding tank, where the sharks gather to feed.

RYK · December 12, 2009 5:20AM

<< My last submission was a major disappointment seeing it in a "Gennie".
I sold it to a guy rather than cracking it out, dipping it and selling it RAW as an MS__ The professional doctor will get to it and it's probably going to come up in auction for thousands more, soon enough (if it's not flipped already).

So that's business... and where the coin actually goes ? ...that's someone else's business and no skin off my nose. I made a respectable profit. Ah, the Gennie holding tank, where the sharks gather to feed. >>

Like this NGC/NCS example, that totally blew my mind. Obviously, the winner thinks the coin will likely make a 58 holder (at least).

Lakesammman · December 12, 2009 5:22AM

I've been thinking of crossing my NGC genuine and NCS coins over to PCGS.

Honestly, for the average coin, it's the kiss of death. For rare or unusual coins, it's a great service.

I prefer the NGC coins as a buyer (less guessing about the defect). As a seller, no one is going to take my word, so NGC wins there too.

I don't own any PCGS genuine coins.

Lakesammman · December 12, 2009 5:31AM

As a good example, the bottom 2 coins are the sort that are not hurt by a "Genuine" holder and are enhanced by it (eliminates authenticity question on the part of the buyer and seller, easier to handle, store, etc). The top 2 coins are probably worth less in a genuine holder (but they aren't currently).

RYK · December 12, 2009 5:38AM

Wow, Tim, that's quite a display!

golfer72 · December 12, 2009 5:39AM

That 1913 lincoln looks like a 65 Brown to me. Nice coin. Grade them yourself. Questionable color is BS anyway.

al410 · December 12, 2009 5:40AM

For authentication on a problem key date coin it is great, alot of people cannot afford these coins that cost thousands of dollars but want to complete collections in folders and want to know that there trade dollar or whatever is authentic. Believe it or not there is a market for not so perfect coins but noblody wants to get stuck with a fake.
AL

ricko · December 12, 2009 5:43AM

I believe it was a good move and significantly better than a BB. Adding the reason would be a further plus, since they obviously know why the piece did not grade. The more information PCGS puts on the label, the more respect it will garner. Of course, there are always the crack outs... seeking that ever important grade or upgrade. That is a sellers game, not a collectors game. Cheers, RickO

MikeInFL · December 12, 2009 5:49AM

I don't own any PCGS genuine slabs, but would purchase one if the right coin was inside.

It seems to me that there's opportunities to be found in "liner" problem coins provided the buyer is comfortable with the problems/issues, and I've found a few in NGC and ANACS slabs over the years, but I've yet to find one in a Genuine slab.

Overall I think the genuine slab was a good idea and has benefits to both PCGS and collectors/dealers.

anablep · December 12, 2009 5:56AM

It's a safety net.

It's a non-commitment by the TPGs. Does PCGS want to tarnish (pun intended) its reputation by placing the "wrong" kind of coin in its holder?

It's probably the best solution (for now) for those "questionable" coins...

291fifth · December 12, 2009 7:36AM

<< "MS65 but weakly struck."

Is weakly struck a reason for a genuine slab??!! >>

No, but I think it should be. I know many won't agree with me on this.

pakasmom · December 12, 2009 7:38AM

In answer to Fairlaneman, - I think al410 said it better than I could.... (and it's JMHO)

<< For authentication on a problem key date coin it is great, alot of people cannot afford these coins that cost thousands of dollars but want to complete collections in folders and want to know that there trade dollar or whatever is authentic. Believe it or not there is a market for not so perfect coins but noblody wants to get stuck with a fake.
AL >>

IGWT · December 12, 2009 7:41AM

I'd never own a coin in a genuine slab. At least not until I crack and resubmit.

mozin · December 12, 2009 7:51AM

The only way I will own a PCGS "GENUINE" coin, is if I get a great deal on a Bust Half Dollar that is at least R5+.

I still believe PCGS made a mistake by offering to slab ungradable coins. The coins in them might as well be raw, and I believe the market has indicated this is true.

ambro51 · December 12, 2009 9:00AM

One situation that I think PCGS sould address with the Genuine slabs, is the way they are ranked in the registry. NCS slabs, and the new NGC version, get half the point value of the coin/details grade. This is BIG with some of the tight registry nuimbers, but PCGS is only giving it PO 01 points. Not a good thing.

PerryHall · December 12, 2009 9:04AM

<< I still believe PCGS made a mistake by offering to slab ungradable coins. The coins in them might as well be raw, and I believe the market has indicated this is true. >>

The vast majority of collectors who submit to PCGS would rather get a genuine slab than a body bag.

grote15 · December 12, 2009 10:18AM

I agree that PCGS should have used a different brand name for "genuine" coins...it seems silly to have all the packaging and the PCGS brand name with no actual grade on the slab and it is annoying to have to wade through these MS+++ auctions looking for true PCGS graded coins as most sellers will use the PCGS brand name in the title but not mention the "genuine" designation.

If they were going to use the PCGS brand name, they should have followed the ANACS model and net graded the coin with the reason for the defect.

PQType · December 12, 2009 10:35AM

<< The vast majority of collectors who submit to PCGS would rather get a genuine slab than a body bag. >>

With the old BB coins, I just sent them to ANACS to be slabbed and sold them.

Now with a PCGS genuine instead of a BB I can send them off to auction and recoup my money spent on the raw coin. No more wasting money sending them out twice.

It will also allow me to buy a coin in a genuine holder and fill in some spots in my type collection of coins that ig graded would be out of reach

Thanks PCGS ... the genuine service has been a positve for collectors.....IMHO

thisnamztaken · December 12, 2009 10:49AM

<< I believe it was a good move and significantly better than a BB. Adding the reason would be a further plus, since they obviously know why the piece did not grade. The more information PCGS puts on the label, the more respect it will garner. >>

<< The vast majority of collectors who submit to PCGS would rather get a genuine slab than a body bag. >>

SeaEagleCoins · December 12, 2009 11:05AM

<< That 1913 lincoln looks like a 65 Brown to me. Nice coin. Grade them yourself. Questionable color is BS anyway. >>

I completely agree with this... it is nothing more or less than an NON-opinion and should qualify as a "no-decision" resulting in a refunded submission fee ... to say "QT" is the same as saying "I do not know" and that IS NOT AN OPINION...

... if I go to a lawyer for a legal opinion and upon a quick review of the info, I am told "well, I don't really know if you have a case or not, have a nice day" ... there is NO WAY I would expect to pay for a consultation fee... (and this did happen to me once and I was not charged for the "consultation")

...as for the gennies... I would not touch them with a ten foot pole... after having bagged coins slab on another submission and then have coins previously slabbed end up body bagged... I frankly am not willing to commit a coin to a Genuine Holder based on a ten-second sometime arbitrary opinion du jour...

The only exception might be a coin such as the one speety and his dad recently acquired with Legend's assistance... for high end and/or excessively rare and/or often counterfeited coins... fine... for common coins, it is a waste of time and money IMHO...

But if anyone else is pleased with the service... go for it... it's your coins... your cash... and as far as I can tell, this is still a (somewhat) free country... well...sort of...

FTR ... I did have a few older US coins put into genuine holders... offered them for sale .... ZERO interest on the bourse floor ... these were Bust Dollars... had to consign them to ebay... took my lumps and moved on...

Sooooo.... the simple "answer" for the OP... "it depends"

...but I do not like them...

Steve · December 12, 2009 11:47AM

The one thing I would like PCGS to do regarding Genuine coins is to publish within their existing population report the number of genuine coins they have slabbed since this slabbing began last year. I think it is important in the case of scarce and rare dates, mintmarks or varieties to know what is being submitted. This is particularly true with scarce and rare coins that have previously been bodybagged and their owners now want to get them into PCGS Genuine slabs for the purpose of keeping OR selling. JMHO. Steve

thatboyaintright · December 12, 2009 12:06PM

I own one PCGS Genuine coin. A 3 cent silver purchased raw that I paid MS 62 bid for. I sent it to PCGS 11 months ago and got the dreaded "genuine" designation. I have shown this to everyone I know at my coin club and several dealers and none of us can spot what PCGS calls cleaning. Paid $ 165 and its now worth ...... who knows ? Probably couldn't sell it for scrap.

Eventually I will crack it out and stick it in my Dansco 7070.

JZrarities · December 12, 2009 12:30PM

etexmike · December 12, 2009 12:49PM

I only have one coin in the Genuine holder.

I have a submission in at PCGS now for the gent that sold me the Bar Cent. I've got a feeling that a few on the order will end up in the Genuine holder themselves. A couple that come to mind are an 1802/1 Bust dollar and an 1893-S Morgan.

This is my Genuine coin and proud of it.

Mike

coindeuce · December 12, 2009 12:50PM

A rather esoteric issue that would be difficult to substantiate without a TPG affirmation.

coinbuf · December 12, 2009 1:09PM

As many others have mentioned it was an idea that had merits but has become way to convenient, a loophole so that a grade opinion does'nt have to be given.

BUFFNIXX · December 13, 2009 8:59PM

I think eventually pcgs will put net grades on problem coins just as ngc and anacs and icg and segs are doing. And then they will continue to offer the genuine only option without a grade on the slab. I think it is heading that way. There will be more people who want the grade on the slab even if it is only a details grade. I saw a matte proof lincoln cent that had some problems and no where on the insert did it say matte proof. You had to infer that from the pcgs number, which did indicate that it was a proof striking. I cannot imagine why pcgs did not take the time to specifically label the coin as a matte proof. That is my opinion. buffnixx

PerryHall · December 13, 2009 9:55PM

<< I think eventually pcgs will put net grades on problem coins just as ngc and anacs and icg and segs are doing. >>

I doubt they will put a net grade on a slab but they may give the coin a details grade like the other TPG's.

terribleredmonster · December 13, 2009 10:08PM

As mentioned by others, the Genuine slab is certainly better than a body bag. That said, if I have a coin that I know has an issue (cleaned, over dipped, questionable color, etc.) I'm not sending it to PCGS. I'm sending it to NGC because their details grade offers me more service for my slabbing dollar. In addition to that, based on my admittedly limited experience, NGC details slabs perform equal to or better than genuine slabs when up for sale.

This along with the copper color designation issue seems to be an area in which NGC is setting itself up for comparative success. Only time will tell of course, but from where I sit the guys across the street are poised for an improvement in their already fairly strong market perception.

HoledandCreative · December 14, 2009 3:49PM

I would really like to see a details grade on the Genuine pieces plus a 1 or 2 word description of the problem. My dream. When I see a genuine advertised, I always wonder if a slight cleaning or run over by a train.

Boom · December 14, 2009 4:01PM

I've got 2 and here's the irony.

I've purchased some previously graded PCGS specimen, same types, years & "properties" - SEVERAL ....

and IN BOTH CASES the 2 pieces labeled "Genuine" are far superior to the previously graded PCGS pieces.

Go figure! I am NOT giving up on them because in due time this phobia will pass and these rarities WILL GRADE.

PCGS Genuine: One year later

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