Will there be a problem with fake receipts after Jan 1?

PerryHall · December 12, 2009 12:04AM

When people buy red copper in PCGS slabs, what is there to prevent asking their dealer to date their receipt sometime in 2009 so they can keep the PCGS guarantee? Will this be prevelant and will this even be a problem for PCGS?

MORGANHUNTER2 · December 12, 2009 12:06AM

Well we will know in what 20 days?

PTVETTER · December 12, 2009 12:21AM

It should be coins slabbed after Jan 1
PCGS would have records to establish that fact!

NO question about that date!

Sales of coins maybe a problem but I don't think so. That would causse a dealer to explain to the IRS why the different in sales figure amount comparied to receipts.

I would not want to deal with the IRS on that issue!!

illini420 · December 12, 2009 12:50AM

Most of the big dollar stuff will probably sell at auction at some point, so that'll help to cut off the potential of invoice fraud I'd think.

astrorat · December 12, 2009 12:55AM

Pure speculation ... but I anticipate a label change.

Lane

PerryHall · December 12, 2009 1:06AM

<< Pure speculation ... but I anticipate a label change.

Lane >>

Even if they change their slab, PCGS copper in current slabs will keep their color guarantee as long as the coin was purchased before the Jan 1, 2010 cut off date. That's where the back dated receipt may be a problem for PCGS.

Res · December 12, 2009 1:14AM

Maybe all coins not subject to the guarantee will have a code on the label.

astrorat · December 12, 2009 1:45AM

<< 

<< Pure speculation ... but I anticipate a label change.

Lane >>

Even if they change their slab, PCGS copper in current slabs will keep their color guarantee as long as the coin was purchased before the Jan 1, 2010 cut off date. That's where the back dated receipt may be a problem for PCGS. >>

Okay, I was not thinking about it from a purchase angle. Thanks.

Lane

MikeInFL · December 12, 2009 1:46AM

I find it interesting that the copper announcement occurred after the "big name" copper collections were sold in the last two years. Coincidence?

coinbuf · December 12, 2009 1:47AM

I'm sure it may happen, to a certain extent pcgs has opened the door for that with this policy change. And as for the IRS thing, all the dealer needs to do is note that the receipt is a duplicate to replace a customer's lost original and he's covered. Now if a dealer starts writing receipts for coins he never sold, well thats something else again.

jessewvu · December 12, 2009 1:47AM

wouldn't you think PCGS would just look in the database to see when that coin was graded? Seems easy to me.

MikeInFL · December 12, 2009 1:47AM

p.s. to answer the OP, yes, I think fake receipts will be an issue. Not so much by dealers, but in collector-to-collector transactions.

coinbuf · December 12, 2009 2:05AM

<< wouldn't you think PCGS would just look in the database to see when that coin was graded? Seems easy to me. >>

Sure that will solve the coins graded after 12/31/09, but what if a buyer buys a coin after that date that was graded prior to the change date, this is where the guarantee goes up in smoke and opens the door for the possiblity for dack dated receipts.

PerryHall · December 12, 2009 2:11AM

<< p.s. to answer the OP, yes, I think fake receipts will be an issue. Not so much by dealers, but in collector-to-collector transactions. >>

Usually, there is no receipt in a collector to collector transaction.

Bochiman · December 12, 2009 2:14AM

<< 

<< p.s. to answer the OP, yes, I think fake receipts will be an issue. Not so much by dealers, but in collector-to-collector transactions. >>

Usually, there is no receipt in a collector to collector transaction. >>

True, and as long as no one had put it in a registry set, and that gets changed, it would be difficult to track.
Now, if they check the registry, and there was a switch in sets/ownership on the coin(s), that may flag it as well.....

jessewvu · December 12, 2009 2:23AM

I think PCGS is going to come out with a new slab that makes it 100% clear which coins were graded before and after this year. With all the fakes out there, a new slab is almost a gimme.

LindeDad · December 12, 2009 2:49AM

I think the problem will be at PCGS when sellers set reserves at the value of what is on the label and the coins don't sell.
A lot of dogs are going to find their way back to where they where graded.
And the copper market will become an in hand sale only since the grade/color can no longer be assumed to true.
To many ways to end up in legal problems to play the fake receipts game IMO.

MikeInFL · December 12, 2009 3:13AM

<< 

<< 

<< p.s. to answer the OP, yes, I think fake receipts will be an issue. Not so much by dealers, but in collector-to-collector transactions. >>

Usually, there is no receipt in a collector to collector transaction. >>

True, and as long as no one had put it in a registry set, and that gets changed, it would be difficult to track.
Now, if they check the registry, and there was a switch in sets/ownership on the coin(s), that may flag it as well..... >>

Registry changes do not necessarily dictate sales. Said another way I could sell a coin to someone on 12/29/09, but the registry change made 1/3/10, and there is no proof of the coin necessarily changed hands on 1/3.

PerryHall · December 12, 2009 4:17AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< p.s. to answer the OP, yes, I think fake receipts will be an issue. Not so much by dealers, but in collector-to-collector transactions. >>

Usually, there is no receipt in a collector to collector transaction. >>

True, and as long as no one had put it in a registry set, and that gets changed, it would be difficult to track.
Now, if they check the registry, and there was a switch in sets/ownership on the coin(s), that may flag it as well..... >>

Registry changes do not necessarily dictate sales. Said another way I could sell a coin to someone on 12/29/09, but the registry change made 1/3/10, and there is no proof of the coin necessarily changed hands on 1/3. >>

Also, the new owner may not care about playing the registry game and the previous owner may forget to remove this coin from their registry.

WinPitcher · December 12, 2009 4:21AM

""""I would not want to deal with the IRS on that issue!!"""""

Or the State sales tax people either for that mater.

If you sell it to another collector you can probably get away with it, to someone in the business I doubt it.

Steve

CaptHenway · December 12, 2009 4:40AM

I hear that the Chinese are printing fake receipts dating back to 1795.........

PLE · December 12, 2009 4:46AM

Usually, there is no receipt in a collector to collector transaction.

In my phone conversation with Don Willis, I asked whether I needed receipts for all of coins to prove that I owned them prior to January 1. He said that, if I had entered them in the registry, then I didn't need receipts. I interpret his response to mean that, they will be using the registry as a means of validating ownership. I suspect that you can use a receipt as a secondary piece of validation if the coin was not entered into the registry prior to January 1.

golfer72 · December 12, 2009 5:51AM

Whats the phrase " Open up Pandoras box" ?

ricko · December 12, 2009 5:52AM

Wow.. another tempest in a teapot. This forum never ceases to amaze me. Cheers, RickO

CaptHenway · December 12, 2009 6:02AM

<< Wow.. another tempest in a teapot. This forum never ceases to amaze me. Cheers, RickO >>

I'm just happy we have a teapot to tempest in.......

Will there be a problem with fake receipts after Jan 1?

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