Are you affraid your brown coppers may someday turn red?
No, I am concerned that a coin that was cleaned might have been re-colored to look Brown. It could eventually show signs of other colors, like pink. As I understand the new guarantee, that would not be covered.
Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this?
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade.
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade. >>
Why would "Genuine" be a thing of the past for copper? I think that it will still be there, IF they suspect doctoring. Doctored toning could be used to hide lower grades and shoot for the higher ones. If it is detectable doctoring, it should be genuined. It is only when a grading/stickering "authority" guesses that something was done but they aren't sure, that gets to me. Then, it is a copout because they aren't knowledgable enough one way or another.
Then, it is a copout because they aren't knowledgable enough one way or another.
Are you aware of anyone that is? It's a good thing that they admited it, no? If you don't know and they don't know, what's left to bicker about? If you think about it, this is the smartest move to make against the dortors. They're literally out of business cashing in on something where there's doubt. This doesn't neccesarily mean that every copper has been mess with. I believe that it's just a matter of time before there are new methods developed for detecting coin doctoring. But unfortunately, there may be no way of preventing copper from naturally toning. As I have mentioned many times before and I'll say it again, a four inch block of lucite is the best answer for keeping a copper red. And I seriously think it should be done for the most important coins. To protect such numismatic history for future generations.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade. >>
Why would "Genuine" be a thing of the past for copper? I think that it will still be there, IF they suspect doctoring. Doctored toning could be used to hide lower grades and shoot for the higher ones. If it is detectable doctoring, it should be genuined. It is only when a grading/stickering "authority" guesses that something was done but they aren't sure, that gets to me. Then, it is a copout because they aren't knowledgable enough one way or another. >>
Why put something in a genuine holder if you have no liability once it leaves your shop, now pcgs is only providing an opinion on the grade and authentication that the coin is not counterfit. If its a counterfit thay bag it, otherwise thay slap a grade on and out the door she goes, no genuine needed, because even if it has been messed with pcgs has so much as admitted that thay can no longer identify doctored copper thus the annoncement. You see this stone kills two birds at once, pcgs can silence all those complaining about the rise in genuine slabs, because thay will not need them for this segment of the market, and eliminate a huge liability from the balance sheet. Besides your line of thinking relies on a trust in pcgs to do the right thing, something that I have very little of anymore
My guess is that PCGS will still put copper in genuine holders if they believe the coins have been messed with. It's the professional thing to do.
I admit that I am a little confused over how PCGS's dreadful decision is going to put doctors out of business. It seems to me doctors will still try to make coins look better to sell for more, even if their "improved" appearance is a time bomb. People will pay more for red copper whether PCGS designates them so or not.
PCGS wants out of the guarantee business. The bottom line is PCGS saves money by no longer paying out, and collectors lose out. The irony is that PCGS will, in the long run, lose too...because collectors like me will abandon them due to lost faith. Lance.
lkeigwin, I agree with your post. They are shooting themselves in the foot AND they will be giving NGC even more business and NGC will become even bigger.
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Bob, that is the true green tone of MPL's taken to the extreme. I would bet on it way before I would bet on many others. A confirming factor too for me is the way the toning exists in and around the devices. Hard to replicate.
No please don't start pulling out purple MPL's or I might have a spell.
Here is the point that I was trying to make with Oreville's coin image.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1.
<< <i>Here is the point that I was trying to make with Oreville's coin image.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
<< <i>Here is the point that I was trying to make with Oreville's coin image.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
Again there is no reason to do this, thay have removed the quarantee so there is no liability thus no reason to place a copper coin in a genuine holder. Cerainly thay can use the genuine holder if thay choose to but I really dont see this as a very big issue compaired to the removal of the guarantee.
<< <i>My guess is that PCGS will still put copper in genuine holders if they believe the coins have been messed with. It's the professional thing to do.
I admit that I am a little confused over how PCGS's dreadful decision is going to put doctors out of business. It seems to me doctors will still try to make coins look better to sell for more, even if their "improved" appearance is a time bomb. People will pay more for red copper whether PCGS designates them so or not.
PCGS wants out of the guarantee business. The bottom line is PCGS saves money by no longer paying out, and collectors lose out. The irony is that PCGS will, in the long run, lose too...because collectors like me will abandon them due to lost faith. Lance. >>
Now, THAT, I can agree with. People will still look for a certain look/colors. Doctors will still operate. PCGS will just have absolved themselves of any payout from the color. Least, that's how I read it. I see some that seem to have read it as PCGS absolving themselves from the copper coins themselves. I guess we shall see which way PCGS goes on these. I have a few handfuls of PCGS copper coins (well, probably closer to 50ish across all the series) so, this is likely going to be detrimental to me, but not as much as it is to those that really go after the registry game....
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval.
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval. >>
Haven't you heard? They apparently can do anything now!
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval. >>
The graders don't even see the coins submitted for reholder.
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Here is an image of a Brown coin (PCGS graded PR66BN) from another thread:
In my opinion, this coin is an example of a brown coin (PR66BN) that PCGS will no longer guarantee, because its color might have been changed. I suspect that it will be difficult to sell. If you send it into PCGS for re-grading, I susect that it will end up in a Genuine slab, due to quesionable color.
I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade. If you were to send it in for a re-grade, the grade guarantee would still be in effect. If I'm wrong, show me where it says that the copper grade (not color) is not listed under the guarantee.
<< <i>I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade. If you were to send it in for a re-grade, the grade guarantee would still be in effect. If I'm wrong, show me where it says that the copper grade (not color) is not listed under the guarantee. >>
I don't claim to know the answer. But, let's think about it logically for a moment....
Copper that is graded and/or sold after January 1, is supposedly not being guaranteed, partly due to its reactivity. And part of that reactivity manifests itself in the form of spots and/or changes in color, each of which clearly can negatively impact the numerical grade. So, if "copper" isn't guaranteed, I would be shocked if, at the same time, its grade is.
<< <i>I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade. If you were to send it in for a re-grade, the grade guarantee would still be in effect. If I'm wrong, show me where it says that the copper grade (not color) is not listed under the guarantee. >>
I don't claim to know the answer. But, let's think about it logically for a moment....
Copper that is graded and/or sold after January 1, is supposedly not being guaranteed, partly due to its reactivity. And part of that reactivity manifests itself in the form of spots and/or changes in color, each of which clearly can negatively impact the numerical grade. So, if "copper" isn't guaranteed, I would be shocked if, at the same time, its grade is. >>
that is logical, but no one else here has thought of it I wonder if PCGS thought of it
I think PCGS still has a few questions to answer about copper and guarantee. If they are not guaranteeing color and grade, there is not much of an upside for use of their services. Why have it graded when the grade can change in their eyes at any time even though the condition of the coin hasn't changed? It appears they are throwing copper under the bus.
<< <i>I think PCGS still has a few questions to answer about copper and guarantee. If they are not guaranteeing color and grade, there is not much of an upside for use of their services. Why have it graded when the grade can change in their eyes at any time even though the condition of the coin hasn't changed? It appears they are throwing copper under the bus. >>
Yep, and I, for one, am going to be extremely reluctant, and careful, about buying any PCGS copper right now (yes, even before 1/1/10) until I see action in the works and some clarity on exactly what is guaranteed or that absolutely NOTHING (aside from genuine) is guaranteed on PCGS graded copper after 1/1/10.
I don't want to be a guinea pig for this nor do I play big enough in the registry to have to keep playing the game. I'll continue to buy what I like, but I am going to be more cautious on the PCGS graded examples...(shame, too, as I am in the market for a nice 1877 IHC, 1909-S IHC, and 1908-S IHC )
<< <i>I think PCGS still has a few questions to answer about copper and guarantee. If they are not guaranteeing color and grade, there is not much of an upside for use of their services. Why have it graded when the grade can change in their eyes at any time even though the condition of the coin hasn't changed? It appears they are throwing copper under the bus. >>
Yep, and I, for one, am going to be extremely reluctant, and careful, about buying any PCGS copper right now (yes, even before 1/1/10) until I see action in the works and some clarity on exactly what is guaranteed or that absolutely NOTHING (aside from genuine) is guaranteed on PCGS graded copper after 1/1/10.
I don't want to be a guinea pig for this nor do I play big enough in the registry to have to keep playing the game. I'll continue to buy what I like, but I am going to be more cautious on the PCGS graded examples...(shame, too, as I am in the market for a nice 1877 IHC, 1909-S IHC, and 1908-S IHC ) >>
While I certainly agree with your caution, I'm not sure some of your conclusions are necessarily correct, or at least that's not the conclusion I'm drawing....
Let's remember that PCGS' comments referred to "color" and not "grade". I presume the worded it that way to imply that the grade guarantee is intact. However, as some have pointed out, grade and color interact, so it's not a clean break at least in some of our eyes. What that says to me is this:
I would be much more cautious on RD and RB examples (which are by definition mint state). However, I'm not sure that I would be concerned with purchasing circulated examples because the impact of color doesn't really play at this level. The grey area, if there is some, is how to handle mint state BN coins, as it seems that these have more risk than their circulated brown cousins and less risk than the RD and RB examples.
Anyway, I think the recent announcement has led to a number of very good questions (as most announcements tend to, no matter the industry). Given some of the responses around here, yet only speaking for myself, it has shaken my confidence in PCGS and possibly unsettled the resale value/market for PCGS graded coppers. I wish PCGS would give us some more guidance on the specifics of some of the concerns voiced (particularly how grade/color interact, how they intend to handle proof of transfer of ownership, etc.).
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>I remember the management visiting here recently related to coin facts, but what about on this more important issue?? >>
I think that management is already monitoring the situation by reading some of the comments made here. None of them will publicly state anything here. They're waiting for us to run out of steam. I say keep this thread going, and most of all, give them Hell at the PCGS luncheon at FUN. Huelga!! Huelga!! Heulga!!
The folks in the NGC boardroom have to be doing the Snooopy dance. A marketing bonanza just fell into their lap - "NGC is the ONLY third-party grader to offer you any guarantee on copper coins! Why go anywhere else??"
<< <i>The folks in the NGC boardroom have to be doing the Snooopy dance. A marketing bonanza just fell into their lap - "NGC is the ONLY third-party grader to offer you any guarantee on copper coins! Why go anywhere else??" >>
You're assuming that NGC doesn't end up making the same change for the same reasons....... (if they don't, then I do agree with you that it is good for them)
<< <i>The folks in the NGC boardroom have to be doing the Snooopy dance. A marketing bonanza just fell into their lap - "NGC is the ONLY third-party grader to offer you any guarantee on copper coins! Why go anywhere else??" >>
You're assuming that NGC doesn't end up making the same change for the same reasons....... (if they don't, then I do agree with you that it is good for them) >>
edited so the thread wouldn't nuke. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Anyone else talk directly with Don Willis or someone else that matters about this lately? I know at least one forum member did. It might be a good idea to attempt to get through to them before the Invitational and then the holidays.
<< <i>.........So what if any , issues were resolved by this well responded to topic ?
None really just a lot of steam was vented
Did anyone at PCGS consider any changes to the new policy ?
I highly doubt that pcgs cares at all what a few collectors think, perhaps if a major player had stepped up that might have gotten noticed.
Now that the dust has settled , will hard core RED copper collectors move on to another series ? >>
I am not a hard core RD collector but I am a copper/Lincoln collector and have no intentions of moving to another series. But, BUT assuming that pcgs does not change the holder insert I will never buy another copper piece in a blue label holder. No mater how nice the coin may look its just too risky now as I'd have no way of knowing when the coin had been graded.
If all the red coins get submitted to NGC, NGC may take some pretty big hits too. Obviously PCGS is doing this because they are losing money on them----------------------------BigE
PCGS (and other grading services) need to be able to do a better job at detecting doctored coins.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here -- then the value of their service is considerably diminished.
I don't know if their current grading methods (a few seconds look with no magnification) need to be changed, or if a longer look with a loupe would even help.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>PCGS (and other grading services) need to be able to do a better job at detecting doctored coins.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here --. >>
I didn't see anything to indicate that they can't /don't do a better job than you can. My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers.
This may have come up earlier in this thread. I haven't read it all.
What IF PCGS will be announcing a NEW label for their slabs effective January 1st. Wouldn't that help determine if existing copper coins continue to be covered for color and grade in the future? Steve
<< <i>PCGS (and other grading services) need to be able to do a better job at detecting doctored coins.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here --. >>
I didn't see anything to indicate that they can't /don't do a better job than you can. My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers. >>
Although I agree with your statement above, I feel great disappointment that PCGS threw in the towel on the color guarantee, and cried "no mas".
<< <i>My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers. >>
That's part of the service that we're supposedly paying them for. If coin doctors really are the reason that the guarantee has been voided, then clearly they do not think they can detect doctoring sufficiently well to stand behind their service.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>This may have come up earlier in this thread. I haven't read it all.
What IF PCGS will be announcing a NEW label for their slabs effective January 1st. Wouldn't that help determine if existing copper coins continue to be covered for color and grade in the future? Steve >>
No. The guarantee applies to all coins sold after 01-01-10. Absent a receipt...you're out of luck.
Comments
No, I am concerned that a coin that was cleaned might have been re-colored to look Brown. It could eventually show signs of other colors, like pink. As I understand the new guarantee, that would not be covered.
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this?
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade. >>
Why would "Genuine" be a thing of the past for copper? I think that it will still be there, IF they suspect doctoring. Doctored toning could be used to hide lower grades and shoot for the higher ones. If it is detectable doctoring, it should be genuined. It is only when a grading/stickering "authority" guesses that something was done but they aren't sure, that gets to me.
Then, it is a copout because they aren't knowledgable enough one way or another.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Are you aware of anyone that is? It's a good thing that they admited it, no? If you don't know and they don't know, what's left to bicker about? If you think about it, this is the smartest move to make against the dortors. They're literally out of business cashing in on something where there's doubt. This doesn't neccesarily mean that every copper has been mess with. I believe that it's just a matter of time before there are new methods developed for detecting coin doctoring. But unfortunately, there may be no way of preventing copper from naturally toning.
As I have mentioned many times before and I'll say it again, a four inch block of lucite is the best answer for keeping a copper red. And I seriously think it should be done for the most important coins. To protect such numismatic history for future generations.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thank you Oreville, for providing this image of a copper coin showing some green color:
So, lets say you purchase this coin, as a Brown coin. And, let's say you send it in to PCGS for regrading or for re-holdering. PCGS can say the coin has questionable color, and put it in a Genuine slab.
Hasn't it become dangerous to purchase a coin that looks like this? >>
While I have not seen anything from pcgs I would assume that if you purchase this coin after the cutoff date and resubmit pcgs will only regrade for the numerical grade and send it back in the original holder or a new XXbn holder. The color of the coin no longer matters it could be purple and not matter, if I understand this correctly the genuine slab is a thing of the past for copper coins. Of course if you can prove ownership of the coin prior to 1/1/10 then you are fully covered for both the color and numerical grade. >>
Why would "Genuine" be a thing of the past for copper? I think that it will still be there, IF they suspect doctoring. Doctored toning could be used to hide lower grades and shoot for the higher ones. If it is detectable doctoring, it should be genuined. It is only when a grading/stickering "authority" guesses that something was done but they aren't sure, that gets to me.
Then, it is a copout because they aren't knowledgable enough one way or another. >>
Why put something in a genuine holder if you have no liability once it leaves your shop, now pcgs is only providing an opinion on the grade and authentication that the coin is not counterfit. If its a counterfit thay bag it, otherwise thay slap a grade on and out the door she goes, no genuine needed, because even if it has been messed with pcgs has so much as admitted that thay can no longer identify doctored copper thus the annoncement. You see this stone kills two birds at once, pcgs can silence all those complaining about the rise in genuine slabs, because thay will not need them for this segment of the market, and eliminate a huge liability from the balance sheet. Besides your line of thinking relies on a trust in pcgs to do the right thing, something that I have very little of anymore
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I admit that I am a little confused over how PCGS's dreadful decision is going to put doctors out of business. It seems to me doctors will still try to make coins look better to sell for more, even if their "improved" appearance is a time bomb. People will pay more for red copper whether PCGS designates them so or not.
PCGS wants out of the guarantee business. The bottom line is PCGS saves money by no longer paying out, and collectors lose out. The irony is that PCGS will, in the long run, lose too...because collectors like me will abandon them due to lost faith.
Lance.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
No please don't start pulling out purple MPL's or I might have a spell.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1.
<< <i>Here is the point that I was trying to make with Oreville's coin image.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
Don't know, but I hope you are not right.
<< <i>Here is the point that I was trying to make with Oreville's coin image.
The new rules for the guarantee also impact Brown coins. Bascially, after January 1, PCGS can decide that they don't like the color of any copper coin, even brown coins. If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
Again there is no reason to do this, thay have removed the quarantee so there is no liability thus no reason to place a copper coin in a genuine holder. Cerainly thay can use the genuine holder if thay choose to but I really dont see this as a very big issue compaired to the removal of the guarantee.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>My guess is that PCGS will still put copper in genuine holders if they believe the coins have been messed with. It's the professional thing to do.
I admit that I am a little confused over how PCGS's dreadful decision is going to put doctors out of business. It seems to me doctors will still try to make coins look better to sell for more, even if their "improved" appearance is a time bomb. People will pay more for red copper whether PCGS designates them so or not.
PCGS wants out of the guarantee business. The bottom line is PCGS saves money by no longer paying out, and collectors lose out. The irony is that PCGS will, in the long run, lose too...because collectors like me will abandon them due to lost faith.
Lance. >>
Now, THAT, I can agree with. People will still look for a certain look/colors. Doctors will still operate. PCGS will just have absolved themselves of any payout from the color. Least, that's how I read it. I see some that seem to have read it as PCGS absolving themselves from the copper coins themselves. I guess we shall see which way PCGS goes on these. I have a few handfuls of PCGS copper coins (well, probably closer to 50ish across all the series) so, this is likely going to be detrimental to me, but not as much as it is to those that really go after the registry game....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval. >>
Haven't you heard? They apparently can do anything now!
<< <i>
<< <i>If you submit any copper coin for regrade or re-holder and they don't like the color, then they will put it in a Genuine slab. You will lose your money, unless you can prove you owned the coin prior to January 1. >>
WHAT? Where did that come from?
They damned well better not. If I submit a coin for a reholder, they have no business changing a damned thing without prior approval. >>
The graders don't even see the coins submitted for reholder.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In my opinion, this coin is an example of a brown coin (PR66BN) that PCGS will no longer guarantee, because its color might have been changed. I suspect that it will be difficult to sell. If you send it into PCGS for re-grading, I susect that it will end up in a Genuine slab, due to quesionable color.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade. If you were to send it in for a re-grade, the grade guarantee would still be in effect. If I'm wrong, show me where it says that the copper grade (not color) is not listed under the guarantee. >>
I don't claim to know the answer. But, let's think about it logically for a moment....
Copper that is graded and/or sold after January 1, is supposedly not being guaranteed, partly due to its reactivity. And part of that reactivity manifests itself in the form of spots and/or changes in color, each of which clearly can negatively impact the numerical grade. So, if "copper" isn't guaranteed, I would be shocked if, at the same time, its grade is.
<< <i>
<< <i>I see where PCGS will no longer guarantee color, but I don't see anything about them not guaranteeing the numerical grade. If you were to send it in for a re-grade, the grade guarantee would still be in effect. If I'm wrong, show me where it says that the copper grade (not color) is not listed under the guarantee. >>
I don't claim to know the answer. But, let's think about it logically for a moment....
Copper that is graded and/or sold after January 1, is supposedly not being guaranteed, partly due to its reactivity. And part of that reactivity manifests itself in the form of spots and/or changes in color, each of which clearly can negatively impact the numerical grade. So, if "copper" isn't guaranteed, I would be shocked if, at the same time, its grade is. >>
that is logical,
but no one else here has thought of it
I wonder if PCGS thought of it
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>I think PCGS still has a few questions to answer about copper and guarantee. If they are not guaranteeing color and grade, there is not much of an upside for use of their services. Why have it graded when the grade can change in their eyes at any time even though the condition of the coin hasn't changed? It appears they are throwing copper under the bus. >>
Yep, and I, for one, am going to be extremely reluctant, and careful, about buying any PCGS copper right now (yes, even before 1/1/10) until I see action in the works and some clarity on exactly what is guaranteed or that absolutely NOTHING (aside from genuine) is guaranteed on PCGS graded copper after 1/1/10.
I don't want to be a guinea pig for this nor do I play big enough in the registry to have to keep playing the game. I'll continue to buy what I like, but I am going to be more cautious on the PCGS graded examples...(shame, too, as I am in the market for a nice 1877 IHC, 1909-S IHC, and 1908-S IHC
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>I think PCGS still has a few questions to answer about copper and guarantee. If they are not guaranteeing color and grade, there is not much of an upside for use of their services. Why have it graded when the grade can change in their eyes at any time even though the condition of the coin hasn't changed? It appears they are throwing copper under the bus. >>
Yep, and I, for one, am going to be extremely reluctant, and careful, about buying any PCGS copper right now (yes, even before 1/1/10) until I see action in the works and some clarity on exactly what is guaranteed or that absolutely NOTHING (aside from genuine) is guaranteed on PCGS graded copper after 1/1/10.
I don't want to be a guinea pig for this nor do I play big enough in the registry to have to keep playing the game. I'll continue to buy what I like, but I am going to be more cautious on the PCGS graded examples...(shame, too, as I am in the market for a nice 1877 IHC, 1909-S IHC, and 1908-S IHC
While I certainly agree with your caution, I'm not sure some of your conclusions are necessarily correct, or at least that's not the conclusion I'm drawing....
Let's remember that PCGS' comments referred to "color" and not "grade". I presume the worded it that way to imply that the grade guarantee is intact. However, as some have pointed out, grade and color interact, so it's not a clean break at least in some of our eyes. What that says to me is this:
I would be much more cautious on RD and RB examples (which are by definition mint state). However, I'm not sure that I would be concerned with purchasing circulated examples because the impact of color doesn't really play at this level. The grey area, if there is some, is how to handle mint state BN coins, as it seems that these have more risk than their circulated brown cousins and less risk than the RD and RB examples.
Anyway, I think the recent announcement has led to a number of very good questions (as most announcements tend to, no matter the industry). Given some of the responses around here, yet only speaking for myself, it has shaken my confidence in PCGS and possibly unsettled the resale value/market for PCGS graded coppers. I wish PCGS would give us some more guidance on the specifics of some of the concerns voiced (particularly how grade/color interact, how they intend to handle proof of transfer of ownership, etc.).
Respectfully...Mike
Did anyone at PCGS consider any changes to the new policy ?
Now that the dust has settled , will hard core RED copper collectors move on to another series ?
but what about on this
more important
issue??
<< <i>I remember the management visiting here recently related to coin facts,
but what about on this
more important
issue?? >>
I think that management is already monitoring the situation by reading some of the comments made here. None of them will publicly state anything here. They're waiting for us to run out of steam. I say keep this thread going, and most of all, give them Hell at the PCGS luncheon at FUN. Huelga!! Huelga!! Heulga!!
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>The folks in the NGC boardroom have to be doing the Snooopy dance. A marketing bonanza just fell into their lap - "NGC is the ONLY third-party grader to offer you any guarantee on copper coins! Why go anywhere else??" >>
You're assuming that NGC doesn't end up making the same change for the same reasons.......
(if they don't, then I do agree with you that it is good for them)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>The folks in the NGC boardroom have to be doing the Snooopy dance. A marketing bonanza just fell into their lap - "NGC is the ONLY third-party grader to offer you any guarantee on copper coins! Why go anywhere else??" >>
You're assuming that NGC doesn't end up making the same change for the same reasons.......
(if they don't, then I do agree with you that it is good for them) >>
edited so the thread wouldn't nuke. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Empty Nest Collection
Actually, it's getting hard to find any nice Brown Indian Head coins, which is probably another indication of the success of the coin doctors.
It certainly is the case that every high-end Red copper collection now has a cloud of doubt over it.
Coppergate!!
<< <i>.........So what if any , issues were resolved by this well responded to topic ?
None really just a lot of steam was vented
Did anyone at PCGS consider any changes to the new policy ?
I highly doubt that pcgs cares at all what a few collectors think, perhaps if a major player had stepped up that might have gotten noticed.
Now that the dust has settled , will hard core RED copper collectors move on to another series ? >>
I am not a hard core RD collector but I am a copper/Lincoln collector and have no intentions of moving to another series. But, BUT assuming that pcgs does not change the holder insert I will never buy another copper piece in a blue label holder. No mater how nice the coin may look its just too risky now as I'd have no way of knowing when the coin had been graded.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here -- then the value of their service is considerably diminished.
I don't know if their current grading methods (a few seconds look with no magnification) need to be changed, or if a longer look with a loupe would even help.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>PCGS (and other grading services) need to be able to do a better job at detecting doctored coins.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here --. >>
I didn't see anything to indicate that they can't /don't do a better job than you can. My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers.
What IF PCGS will be announcing a NEW label for their slabs effective January 1st. Wouldn't that help determine if existing copper coins continue to be covered for color and grade in the future?
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS (and other grading services) need to be able to do a better job at detecting doctored coins.
If they can't do any better of a job at this than I could -- something that they seem to be tacitly admitting here --. >>
I didn't see anything to indicate that they can't /don't do a better job than you can. My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers. >>
Although I agree with your statement above, I feel great disappointment that PCGS threw in the towel on the color guarantee, and cried "no mas".
COIN DOCTORS: 1 PCGS: 0 COIN COLLECTORS: - 0
<< <i>My guess is that they do a far better job of detecting doctoring than the large majority of collectors and dealers. >>
That's part of the service that we're supposedly paying them for. If coin doctors really are the reason that the guarantee has been voided, then clearly they do not think they can detect doctoring sufficiently well to stand behind their service.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>This may have come up earlier in this thread. I haven't read it all.
What IF PCGS will be announcing a NEW label for their slabs effective January 1st. Wouldn't that help determine if existing copper coins continue to be covered for color and grade in the future?
Steve
No. The guarantee applies to all coins sold after 01-01-10. Absent a receipt...you're out of luck.