To what extent if any does the color of a copper coin affect its numerical grade given by PCGS?

SmallEagle · December 10, 2009 7:14AM

EAC grades do not explicitly label the color but a red coin gets additional points toward a perfect grade of 70. Since PCGS does currently label the color does that imply that a full red coin does not get a bump in its numerical grade because of its color?

soty27 · December 10, 2009 7:20AM

That's quite the type set your working on there. Congrats

STONE · December 10, 2009 7:23AM

<< <i>That's quite the type set your working on there. Congrats >>

Ummm, I don't think that's what he's asking

...But I do agree

As to the OP's question, I don't believe, and have never heard, of a copper coin getting additional points
based on color, rather just strike, surfaces, etc. dictating the grade.

illini420 · December 10, 2009 7:25AM

I read on another thread that a 1969-S DDO Lincoln graded MS65RD downgraded to MS64RB after it changed in the holder. In that case the GRADE and COLOR were affected.

The color does make a difference in the grade too, especially at the higher end of the scale. Based on the pop reports it seems much much harder to make a 67BN or 67RB than it is to make a 67RD. And I haven't seen too many, if any coins graded 68BN, 68RB, 69BN, 69RB, 70BN or 70RB coins. So either a BN/RB coin with no marks doesn't exist or the color of the coin keeps a coin from grading higher?

Bochiman · December 10, 2009 7:58AM

I don't know where the posts are, but I recall HRH stating some limitations on grade, due to color, that he saw.
A BN copper wouldn't be above MS6x (maybe 65) and RB had limits too

BillJones · December 10, 2009 8:00AM

Spots will lower the grade of a copper coin, especially red ones. Beyond that it seems to me that many strict brown coins get shortchanged. There is such a thing as an MS-66, brown, but you don't see that grade very often.

STONE · December 10, 2009 8:04AM

I believe there are a couple, specific, large cents graded 68BN!!!

Those with the pic can dig it out if they want

illini420 · December 10, 2009 8:18AM

I have some 1909 VDB Lincolns that have the look of a 63-65RD based on the luster and number of marks, but they have a few major spots so they are slabbed as MS62RD.

OneCent · December 10, 2009 9:52AM

PCGS stated that they thought it would be HIGHLY unlikely that a brown Lincoln cent would ever be graded higher than a 66 by PCGS. Check the pop reports and tell me how many 67BN Lincolns that you see? The answer is zero.

See the PCGS answer to my question about grade limitations on copper here: Answer to my Question in QA Forum regarding Brown Lincoln Cents.

robec · December 10, 2009 10:16AM

<< <i>PCGS stated that they thought it would be HIGHLY unlikely that a brown Lincoln cent would ever be graded higher than a 66 by PCGS. Check the pop reports and tell me how many 67BN Lincolns that you see? The answer is zero.

See the PCGS answer to my question about grade limitations on copper here: Answer to my Question in QA Forum regarding Brown Lincoln Cents. >>

Actually there are 5 Lincoln 67BN's, though the five are post 1982. Only 4 Lincoln MPL are 67BN. There are also 7 Memorial Lincoln's in PR67BN and 1 PR68BN.

MikeInFL · December 10, 2009 10:26AM

One of the thoughts that's been floating around my head since someone suggested that PCGS drop the RB and RD lable if they are not going to guarantee it is that the impact of this decision would likely drive them to a new grading standard similar to EAC.

If they do, in fact, drop the RB and RD labels, I think the only way to market grade the coins would be go to the EAC way of thinking.

However, the next logical step is that they would have to do away with the grade guarantee as a result.

After all, if color is factored into the market grade, and PCGS admits they can not detect dipped copper nor are willing to step up to the liability, then the grade guarantee for copper may be the next step in this slippery slope.

robec · December 10, 2009 11:31AM

I also wondered about BN's that are borderline RB's. Since PCGS is no longer economically responsible, what are the chances of some of these being "upgraded" to RB?

OneCent · December 10, 2009 11:38AM

My original statement should have been caveated with "business strike" examples. I can't imagine that post '82 67BN examples are real grades but rather errors in the pop report or RB coins that were "downgraded" for turning in the holder. In any event there are no brown Lincoln wheat business strikes graded higher than 66BN.

Thanks for pointing out the inaccuracies in my post.

SmallEagle · December 10, 2009 11:59AM

What do the following numbers say about the impact of color on numerical grades (if anything).

In mid and Late-date Large Cents there are 12 coins given MS67s by PCGS. One is red and 11 are Brown.

In post-1864 Indian Cents there are 85 coins given MS67. 84 are red and 1 is brown.

In wheat Lincoln Cents there are 10156 coins given MS67. 10,098 are red and 58 are red/brown and 0 are brown.

lkeigwin · December 10, 2009 12:28PM

Color is some sort of factor. I sent PCGS a 63RD wheatie that was clearly RB, asking for the grade guarantee. It was returned with a handwritten note from the grader "looks RD enough for a 63".

I have a couple of RB67 wheaties. HRH viewed one recently and said "RB67...we don't do that anymore". Hmm.
Lance.

To what extent if any does the color of a copper coin affect its numerical grade given by PCGS?

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