Will the CAC sticker provide assurance for RD/RB copper now that PCGS doesn't?
MikeInFL
Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
Considering the recent announcement by PCGS to no longer guarantee RD/RB copper, I got to thinking... I wonder if the CAC will step up and fill the void?
If they do, I know that I, for one, would seek to mitigate this risk by having CAC review any RD/RB coins prior to a purchase/sale.
So will the CAC step up and address the risk/liability that PCGS won't?
Thoughts?
If they do, I know that I, for one, would seek to mitigate this risk by having CAC review any RD/RB coins prior to a purchase/sale.
So will the CAC step up and address the risk/liability that PCGS won't?
Thoughts?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Don't they make a sight unseen market in CAC coins?
That's a very good point. Perhaps the assurance is already there.
<< <i>Things must have gotten really really bad on the coin doctor front for PCGS to alter their guaranty. I have an email in to JA to find out what his stance is. >>
Given this is generated from a copper color thread, what is JA's experience with copper? Copper and toning?
This is an honest, non-judgemental, question as I do not know the gentleman nor much of his background
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>How hard is it to lower a sight-unseen bid? >>
That's another good point.
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't they make a sight unseen market in CAC coins?
That's a very good point. Perhaps the assurance is already there. >>
This is sort of what I was thinking.
Will there be a new market in unstable copper that has the CAC sticker which will turn at some point in the future?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Mike, the problem with your idea is that if the best PCGS graders often can't flag a "just made" RD Lincoln cent, I doubt the CAC experts would be able to much better in this area. >>
Agreed. Maybe CAC could make some big bucks by having a new sticker they use for copper. It would be the same as the current sticker, but the hologram would have "2010" in the background so you know when it was stickered. Each year they would start using new stickers for copper. That way, when looking at a copper piece slabbed and CAC stickered, the buyer would know how long ago CAC approved the color/grade. If it has been awhile, the buyer could insist the coin go back to CAC for a new look and a new up to date sticker. Once this policy is adopted, CAC can PM me for my address for the royalty checks
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Could someone please direct me to the CAC guaranty? >>
I saw this on their website:
"WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:
• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins."
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
He was clearly concerned about indefinitely stickering red copper coins even at that time.
He also expressed that this is probably one of the, if not the biggest, problem facing all of us today.
While I have done great in getting most of my collection stickered at the 85% to 90% rate, my sticker rate for red copper was closer to 80% on my red 1972 DDO's and only 35% on my 1983 DDR's, 1984 DDO's and 1995 DDO's combined.
I could not believe how many of my PCGS (and NGC) red copper coins have turned, especially the post 1975 moderns.
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days".
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
That's another good point.
I agree with both of you!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
PCGS was always on top of this because they maintain a database of who submitted each and every coin,most of them are imaged and by the cert # they can tell when the coin was graded. I believe NGC can also do the same.
Yes CAC should have done this for copper coins. The expertise of John Albanese is not copper
My experience with copper is that everyone including me can get fooled with copper. Original,unadulterated stable copper coins will appreciate in value because they are scarce.
Illini420 - The reason why Oreville's copper coins after 1982 are disintegrating is basically they were no longer copper after 1982. The skin is paper thin on these copper coated zinc cents.
Stewart
<< <i>Mike, the problem with your idea is that if the best PCGS graders often can't flag a "just made" RD Lincoln cent, I doubt the CAC experts would be able to much better in this area. >>
Yes, but JA has a habit of keeping his word.
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Still.........do they even make cointains anymore?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.
• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins."
Ironclad!
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Hypothetical question: If you were to sell any of those coins, would you be willing to guarantee the new owner that they would stay red?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Still.........do they even make cointains anymore? >>
I think you can still find them. I know I saw more than a few examples in cointains last FUN.
That said, Airtites are virtually the same thing, and what I use these days to store my raw copper.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Still.........do they even make cointains anymore? >>
they sho do still make Kointainers
<< <i>Hypothetical question: If you were to sell any of those coins, would you be willing to guarantee the new owner that they would stay red? >>
I will answer for him: Probably not, but PCGS did and now they are going back on their word. Integrity means everything in this business.
<< <i>Does NGC guarantee copper color? >>
I have'nt checked but last I knew thay still have a ten year guarantee.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Hypothetical question: If you were to sell any of those coins, would you be willing to guarantee the new owner that they would stay red? >>
Would these coins be sold in a sonically sealed tamperproof acrylic holders?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1) the coin cannot be stickered until one year after encapsulation (obviously this would require a copy of the original submission paperwork and USPS receipts)
2) upon a claim against the guarantee the coin is subject to an inspection by CAC personnel to determine if the coin was stored in an improper environment (again, I have little experience with red copper, but it seems like if a coin is stored in an excessively warm or humid environment there'd be evidence of it - I have seen this on silver coins in my own posession)
3) any written guarantee should obviously include an improper storage clause
Just some ideas.
<< <i>Why should CAC guarantee color? They didn't slab the thing. >>
What does the slab have to do with color stability? (assuming it isn't detrimental). --Jerry
<< <i>Any improper storage clause would just be seen by collectors as a loophole and whenever a claim were made the claimant would swear that it had been stored forever in a temperature and humidity controlled vault and storage couldn't be the problem. Besides, I don't think looking at a coin that has changed colors you can draw a conclusion it was a storage issue unless it is corroding or the label shows flood damage.... >>
As I mentioned, I don't have a lot of experience on the subject. I guess you could say I'm just "spitballing". It's entirely possible that the vast majority of improper storage cases would present no direct physical evidence. I don't know. I was basing the idea on what happened to some coins that I left in an unheated/cooled house for about 18 months. It was pretty obvious just by looking at them what had happened. Only two were in slabs, but the slabs themselves also wound up showing signs of distress (the labels in particular were telling).
BTW, I'm not suggesting that CAC should feel any obligation to guarantee the work of another company. It just seems to me that they're already in that business to an extent and they might stand to gain by a well worded and executed policy in this scenario.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should CAC guarantee color? They didn't slab the thing. >>
What does the slab have to do with color stability? (assuming it isn't detrimental). --Jerry >>
Well CAC doesn't do raw coins last I knew.
The slabs aren't warranted/guaranteed to be airtight Why should PCGS guarantee color?
Over time some older coins have managed to stay [or have been able to have been kept] red. Why should anyone PCGS, CAC or NGC guarantee color once the coin is out of their control?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should CAC guarantee color? They didn't slab the thing. >>
What does the slab have to do with color stability? (assuming it isn't detrimental). --Jerry >>
Well CAC doesn't do raw coins last I knew.
The slabs aren't warranted/guaranteed to be airtight Why should PCGS guarantee color?
Over time some older coins have managed to stay [or have been able to have been kept] red. Why should anyone PCGS, CAC or NGC guarantee color once the coin is out of their control? >>
Because for 20+ years, PCGS collected fees saying they would.
Let me ask you a question. If you bought a car with a 5 year, 50,000 mile warranty including the transmission, and two years into the warranty they said that the warranty would no longer apply to the transmission, how would YOU react?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should CAC guarantee color? They didn't slab the thing. >>
What does the slab have to do with color stability? (assuming it isn't detrimental). --Jerry >>
Well CAC doesn't do raw coins last I knew.
The slabs aren't warranted/guaranteed to be airtight Why should PCGS guarantee color?
Over time some older coins have managed to stay [or have been able to have been kept] red. Why should anyone PCGS, CAC or NGC guarantee color once the coin is out of their control? >>
Because for 20+ years, PCGS collected fees saying they would. >>
Not very wise to warrant something that is out of your control. Is the new policy retroactive to a past date or just from now on?
<< <i>I can't omagine JA continuing to guarantee RD designated coins going forward. He has seen RD coins that he stickered start turning already. It's a risky business with a highly reactant metal. >>
Every coin already stickered by CAC will continue to be guaranteed by CAC...even red copper. That's not to say that he will continue to sticker copper, but if it's already stickered then nothing changes.
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't omagine JA continuing to guarantee RD designated coins going forward. He has seen RD coins that he stickered start turning already. It's a risky business with a highly reactant metal. >>
Every coin already stickered by CAC will continue to be guaranteed by CAC...even red copper. That's not to say that he will continue to sticker copper, but if it's already stickered then nothing changes. >>
The way it should be and a selling point going forward that CAC can hang it's hat on.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't omagine JA continuing to guarantee RD designated coins going forward. He has seen RD coins that he stickered start turning already. It's a risky business with a highly reactant metal. >>
Every coin already stickered by CAC will continue to be guaranteed by CAC...even red copper. That's not to say that he will continue to sticker copper, but if it's already stickered then nothing changes. >>
The way it should be and a selling point going forward that CAC can hang it's hat on. >>
Right, although PCGS probably would have issued the exact same statement up until they
changed their minds...
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't omagine JA continuing to guarantee RD designated coins going forward. He has seen RD coins that he stickered start turning already. It's a risky business with a highly reactant metal. >>
Every coin already stickered by CAC will continue to be guaranteed by CAC...even red copper. That's not to say that he will continue to sticker copper, but if it's already stickered then nothing changes. >>
That's what I meant by "going forward". Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffttt!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't omagine JA continuing to guarantee RD designated coins going forward. He has seen RD coins that he stickered start turning already. It's a risky business with a highly reactant metal. >>
Every coin already stickered by CAC will continue to be guaranteed by CAC...even red copper. That's not to say that he will continue to sticker copper, but if it's already stickered then nothing changes. >>
The way it should be and a selling point going forward that CAC can hang it's hat on. >>
Right, although PCGS probably would have issued the exact same statement up until they
changed their minds... >>
so a written signed contract in front of a witness should come with
every slab and sticker!
only in this hobby folks do topics like this come up! sharks and angels
looking down on the collectors of the world!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is storing red copper better in cointains then slipped into an inert flip ? ( Other than Oreville I wonder how many here even know what a cointain is).
It's what we used to use to store copper in general but especially red copper back " in the old days". >>
I have copper that's more than 30 years old stored in both 2x2s and contains (acrylic). Both types are as red as the day I put them away. In fairness, they have been stored in a temperature and humidity controlled location. >>
Hypothetical question: If you were to sell any of those coins, would you be willing to guarantee the new owner that they would stay red? >>
Would these coins be sold in a sonically sealed tamperproof acrylic holders? >>
from cracking a few out, these are not sonically sealed all the way around, at least. the pieces come apart with smooth edges on the parts that are pried open and without a crackling sound as the two sides are pried. It's more like a crack at the discrete join points.