There's a fine line between how a TPGS should grade a coin and how a collector collects that coin. There are areas in coin collecting that a TPGS has no business being a part of. A TPGS should not be telling collectors what is red or red-brown, what is fully struck or not, what has full bell lines or full steps on a coin to coin basis. Collectors should collect how they see fit and determine what goes into their collections. Collectors would then have want show-off at a major coin show where their collections could go under the scrutiny eyes of fellow collectors and a TPGS to determine which collections are the most lustrous or highest graded or fully struck or most red, brown or white, I believe this is the way the coin hobby should go.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee>
I'm taking for granted that this also applies to the masses..............good for Stewert taking the high road. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I dont think premiums or registry points should be taken away for "being crazy enough" to still enjoy red copper. Afterall, the coin itself remains the same. Full red copper, regardless of pcgs renegging on its promise, is still going to be more desireable than a brown or red-brown coin. Simply put, we can no longer have the peace of mind of buying sight unseen. Pcgs has taken that away, to the detriment of their own business IMO.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
If PCGS wanted to change their policy, they should have limited themselves to coins graded after January 1, and they should not have changed the terms of the guarantee for the coins that they already graded. Instead, they rescinded their guarantee on any red coin when it is sold. When I bought the PCGS graded coin shown here, I assumed that PCGS guarantee would still be valid whenever I sold that coin. There was no way to know that PCGS could change the terms of their guarantee whenever they wanted. With that action, PCGS broke their word on their existing graded coins. In my opinion, a TPG is successful to the extent that it is trusted by the community, and this change damages that trust
Here is an image of a Red coin that I own that PCGS will no longer guarantee if I sell:
<< <i>If PCGS wanted to change their policy, they should have limited themselves to coins graded after January 1, and they should not have changed the terms of the guarantee for the coins that they already graded. Instead, they rescinded their guarantee on any red coin when it is sold. When I bought the PCGS graded coin shown here, I assumed that PCGS guarantee would still be valid whenever I sold that coin. There was no way to know that PCGS could change the terms of their guarantee whenever they wanted. With that action, PCGS broke their word on their existing graded coins. In my opinion, a TPG is successful to the extent that it is trusted by the community, and this change damages that trust
Here is an image of a Red coin that I own that PCGS will no longer guarantee if I sell:
>>
Are you kidding me??? A '77 in 66RD? You DO have a huge stake in this decision PCGS has made. What a gorgeous Indian. I am jealous. Shag
Are you kidding me??? A '77 in 66RD? You DO have a huge stake in this decision PCGS has made. What a gorgeous Indian. I am jealous. Shag
So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. It would have been okay if they simply said the new rules apply to newly graded coins. Instead, they rescinded the guarantee on the coins that I already own. Yes, I take their decision very personally, and I am very unhappy.
I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call.
<< <i>Are you kidding me??? A '77 in 66RD? You DO have a huge stake in this decision PCGS has made. What a gorgeous Indian. I am jealous. Shag
So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. It would have been okay if they simply said the new rules apply to newly graded coins. Instead, they rescinded the guarantee on the coins that I already own. Yes, I take their decision very personally, and I am very unhappy.
I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call. >>
I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?
<< <i>So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. >>
I don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes. >>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable?
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes. >>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
Well if I'm a buyer looking for a 66RD 1877, I'm going to pay a bunch more for the OGH example posted above vs. a comparable coin in a recent style holder. I know that OGH has been that way for 10-15 years or so and the color is likely stable. With a blue holder I have no clue whether it was in the slab for a few years or if it was doctored last month and without a guarantee I would be very nervous about placing a fair bid. That said, if I were to be in the market for that type of coin I'd probably have an agent who knows their stuff assisting me. Beautiful coin
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes. >>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
I agree that the OGH coin will be worth more than the blue holder coin in the future for the reasons stated above. Not certain whether or not the OGH coin will be worth more or less than it would have been under the guaranty - only time will tell.
That is why they should change the color of the insert on January 1st, 2010. Keep the guarantee in place for coins already graded. Are you listening PCGS?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes. >>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
I agree that the OGH coin will be worth more than the blue holder coin in the future for the reasons stated above. Not certain whether or not the OGH coin will be worth more or less than it would have been under the guaranty - only time will tell. >>
I think that OGH red copper coins were already worth more than blue holder coins (generally). The only thing that changes in January is NOT favorable to that value. Or what am I missing CCU?
I'm glad we're finally getting to the point that matters here. All PCGS has to do now in order to avoid complete mayhem is keep the guarantee on copper graded before 1/1/2010 for the life of the COIN (not just the current owner) and change the insert somehow on 1/1/2010, allowing collectors to instantly know if the coin they are thinking of purchasing comes with the guarantee or not. Implementing these two simple changes would put most of us at ease and would relieve PCGS of the onslaught of calls and letters they are about to get. Gosh, I hope PCGS is looking at this thread!
Must admit, I am glad I don't collect red copper. I once had an 1870 IHC graded MS65 PCI Gold holder. Bought her on a bit of a whim. She was full red, mark free and lustrous. I sold her a couple yrs later to raise $$ for more bust halves. She looked great to me. Despite the fact that she stayed full red for the 3 yrs or so that I had her (inside an intercept shield box), I was a bit leery that she'd turn.
In any event, I suspect this change will prompt bit of a run on Intercept Shield products.
I'm glad we're finally getting to the point that matters here. All PCGS has to do now in order to avoid complete mayhem is keep the guarantee on copper graded before 1/1/2010 for the life of the COIN (not just the current owner) and change the insert somehow on 1/1/2010, allowing collectors to instantly know if the coin they are thinking of purchasing comes with the guarantee or not. Implementing these two simple changes would put most of us at ease and would relieve PCGS of the onslaught of calls and letters they are about to get. Gosh, I hope PCGS is looking at this thread
I agree with you, and I have a simple suggestion for how PCGS can change the insert. Starting January 1, PCGS should grade coins RDw which stands for "Red without guarantee", and RBw, which stands for "Red-Brown without guarantee".
What is of even more importance to me is the reduced guarantee on world coins, now a maximum of $10,000. And there are a lot of world coins that are worth more than that.
<< <i> I'm glad we're finally getting to the point that matters here. All PCGS has to do now in order to avoid complete mayhem is keep the guarantee on copper graded before 1/1/2010 for the life of the COIN (not just the current owner) and change the insert somehow on 1/1/2010, allowing collectors to instantly know if the coin they are thinking of purchasing comes with the guarantee or not. Implementing these two simple changes would put most of us at ease and would relieve PCGS of the onslaught of calls and letters they are about to get. Gosh, I hope PCGS is looking at this thread
I agree with you, and I have a simple suggestion for how PCGS can change the insert. Starting January 1, PCGS should grade coins RDw which stands for "Red without guarantee", and RBw, which stands for "Red-Brown without guarantee". >>
FWIW, I agree with you both. I would not expect PCGS to change its position, however.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>I think that OGH red copper coins were already worth more than blue holder coins (generally). The only thing that changes in January is NOT favorable to that value. Or what am I missing CCU? >>
I believe there will continue to be strong demand for RD coins at the high end of the market. And, in the case of 1877 Indian Cents, the coins of highest interest (even more so than before) will be the ones that have demonstrated stable color for the longest period. Which will mean coins in old holders, as well as coins with a pedigree proving they have looked like they do right now for a really long time.
I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call.
>>Mark Feld said: I think Don Willis will take your call
Unfortunately, Don Willis did not return my phone call. I guess he has better things to do than speaking with collectors of red copper coins like this one:
<< <i>I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call.
>>Mark Feld said: I think Don Willis will take your call
Unfortunately, Don Willis did not return my phone call. I guess he has better things to do than speaking with collectors of red copper coins like this one:
>>
He still might return your call. Did you try any other means of contact as I originally suggested? "I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?"
He still might return your call. Did you try any other means of contact as I originally suggested?
"I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?"
Yes, I sent him an email message. No response yet. I did receive a bulk email from Don inviting me to the PCGS Members Only Show in Las Vegas, however.
I sent Don Willis an email today as well as one to David Hall after speaking with Chris from customer service on the phone. Chris is apparently the "whipping boy" who was chosen to field calls about this topic. He was very nice to me, but was there only to clarify, and he told me that, indeed, after 1/1/2010, only the OWNER of a given copper coin on 12/31/09 is entitled to the guarantee on said coin. The coin itself is NOT guaranteed. What that means is if the owner of a coin on 12/31/09 decides 2 days later to sell it, put it up for auction, trade it for an upgrade, give it to his family member as a late Christmas present or (God forbid) drops dead leaving the coin to his heir, then the guarantee that was in supposedly in place for the lifetime of the COIN becomes null and void. Are you scared yet? I sure am. We must stand together on this- it's getting serious.
Lope, you comment is yet another reason why my post is an excellent idea. PCGS knows when your e-bay coin was slabbed. If it was sold to someone else and turned nine months later, as you owned it for nine or ten years, they'd know that your coin was stable, and its cause for turning had nothing to do with you.
They are trying to prevent people from making a RD copper, unloading the coin, only to have it turn in the holder in under a year, with them having to make good on their guarantee. The PCGS graders are pros. They know that a coin which has been slabbed for nine years won't turn, unless you do something stupid, like live by the beach and keep the coin in an open window for a lengthy period of time.
My idea is to punish the coin doctors, and I think it would work well. Your point however, is correct in that you can't do anything to help people that are just plain stupid.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
As an owner of enough PCGS red copper coins, I don't like it one bit either.
It is too dramatic of a revocation of an iron clad guarantee that set PCGS from the rest of the industry.
I would have preferred to have seen PCGS offer some kind of an interim 5 year phaseout of such guarantee, to gracefully bow out of such guarantee and not leave the red copper collectors in the lurch on the pre 2010 slabbed red copper coins.
Then after the 5 years, there should be a 6 months to 1 year guarantee on all newly slabbed red copper. If PCGS is so concerned about slabbing red copper then don't grade copper as red anymore. Call them all redbrown.
<< <i>They are trying to prevent people from making a RD copper, unloading the coin, only to have it turn in the holder in under a year, with them having to make good on their guarantee. The PCGS graders are pros. >>
So why not make the waiting period at PCGS up to one year to make sure the red copper coin does NOT turn before PCGS agrees to slab it RD?
If I submit any coins in 2010, I would be willing to have PCGS hold my raw copper coin for up one year so that PCGS can make sure it stays red before and after it is slabbed.
This would separate the collectors who can wait, from the doctors who can't wait.
I would also pay PCGS extra for the extra handling involved.
Why don't they just make the clock on the guarantee begin in year 2. After a year of proving stable and not doctored, the guarantee kicks in.
They need to honor their lifetime guarantee on coins already slabbed. Why doesn't Longacre or another lawyer opine on the legal aspects of recinding a lifetime guarantee....
Oreville and Luster Lover - I am on the same page with the two of you. I wouldn't mind having them withhold their "good housekeeping seal" for a year on RD copper to protect themselves from getting stuck eating an obviously doctored coin. I wouldn't have a problem paying an additional fee for this, either.
If they have the numbers to back it up, I also don't have a problem with their putting some sort of limits on the time length of a RD copper guarantee. The thing is, as Stewart wrote, he properly stores his RD copper and he has never had a problem with any of it. I bought my 1909 P IHC in PC 5 RD in 1998. It was in an OGH, so I'm guessing the coin was slabbed five years before that, give or take. The coin looks just like it did when I bought it. Just my 2 cents.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
They are trying to prevent people from making a RD copper, unloading the coin, only to have it turn in the holder in under a year, with them having to make good on their guarantee.
Here's my problem. The PCGS graders are, indeed, pros. If they can't detect a recolored coin, then I know that I can't detect it either.
Basically, PCGS is now saying that it is too risky for them to guarantee copper Red (or Red-Brown). Well, if it is now too risky for them to guarantee those coins, isn't it too risky for me to buy those PCGS coins?
PCGS can't hold tens of thousands of coins for a year, waiting to see if they'll turn. Owners wouldn't tolerate that either. Nice idea, but impractical.
Look, I understand PCGS feels they have to do something...introduce a new policy about future submissions, grading and guarantees. But don't ever, ever go back on your word on past promises. That is a business death sentence.
Many of us spent a lot of money on PCGS coins -- through purchases and grading, believing and trusting in PCGS. We are NOT okay with reneging on pledges.
Say what you will about copper and your buying habits or interests. You don't like RD or trust RD or even copper? Fine. But if you do...and you jumped in with comfort because of PCGS guarantees, then to suddenly find you have been had is a lesson not soon forgotten.
This is a very, very poor business decision by PCGS. Short-sighted and bad for their future and collectors who trusted them. Lance.
If I was a coin doctor, I would use the former PCGS guarantee to my advantage. I would buy as many RD coppers I could then subject the slab and coins to the conditions that would turn them BN, and cash in. With this in mind, I understand PCGS stance, but they should guarantee all coins they graded RD or RB before the date of the new policy. It's the only correct method of dealing with the problem.
So heres a question thats been bugging me, just how will PCGS determine who owns all the PCGS RD & RB designated coins at 12/31/09 Ok sure if you have a registry set that could be used to establish ownership, but not everyone does the registry, and not every collector can provide receipts for every coin in their collection. Whats to prevent a collector from claiming longterm ownership of a coin purchased after the cutoff date?
<< <i>If I was a coin doctor, I would use the former PCGS guarantee to my advantage. I would buy as many RD coppers I could then subject the slab and coins to the conditions that would turn them BN, and cash in. With this in mind, I understand PCGS stance, but they should guarantee all coins they graded RD or RB before the date of the new policy. It's the only correct method of dealing with the problem. >>
I've thought about this myself but couldn't think how such an act would be of any advantage to the spoiler. Reason being, if the coin is bought at a RD price, they would only receive what they paid. But than again, they would land a blow to the grading company who had to pay for the doctoring. RD coins could be bought in a down market, doctored then wait for the next bull market to take advantage of the GG but why wouldn't they just sell them and profit over time. Again, most likely to make the TPGS pay. Perhaps someone could give their opinion on how someone could "cash in' by ruining a coin while it's in the slab. Or they could be buying up coins that have already turned in the holder and they're cashing in this way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
So why not make the waiting period at PCGS up to one year to make sure the red copper coin does NOT turn before PCGS agrees to slab it RD?
If I submit any coins in 2010, I would be willing to have PCGS hold my raw copper coin for up one year so that PCGS can make sure it stays red before and after it is slabbed.
This would separate the collectors who can wait, from the doctors who can't wait.
I'm sure NGC would like to see PCGS do this!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I hope when the 01/01/2010 cutoff date arrives, PCGS covers all coins slabbed under the guarantee prior to that date. It's the fair thing to do.
I don't have a huge stake in coppers though. Mine lone RD copper is a 1930 Lincoln in PSGS MS66RD plastic. No biggie. Now my MS63RB S-VDB is different but it's 2/3 red and I don't see it ever becoming a problem.
I understand PCGS' position completely, but hope they consider coins slabbed prior to the cutoff as guaranteed regardless of ownership.
I can see this new policy benefiting NGC. Is anyone here planning to buy more red copper in NGC slabs rather than PCGS slabs in the future?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I can see this new policy benefiting NGC. Is anyone here planning to buy more red copper in NGC slabs rather than PCGS slabs in the future?
Yes, although PCGS's actions has caused me to rethink my entire view of collecting. I will either start buying NGC slabs, or, alternatively, move to a different hobby. Haven't decided yet. I'm really disappointed in PCGS.
<< <i>I can see this new policy benefiting NGC. Is anyone here planning to buy more red copper in NGC slabs rather than PCGS slabs in the future? >>
Cancelled my CC membership a few months ago and deleted all my coins from the Registry. All my coins are on the B/S/T at cost. Definately NGC for me. I fully understand each person has their own decision to make around these recent changes and I've made mine. My five free gradings will go unused also.
I am collecting cents for a submission. I was torn between PCGS and NGC. PCGS has (had) a better GG but I do not like NO GRADE "Genuine" slabs. NGC does "Details" grading on problem coins. Now They will go to NGC. It is as simple as that. This is how you lose market share. One customer at a time.
Comments
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee>
I'm taking for granted that this also applies to the masses..............good for Stewert taking the high road. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Here is an image of a Red coin that I own that PCGS will no longer guarantee if I sell:
<< <i>If PCGS wanted to change their policy, they should have limited themselves to coins graded after January 1, and they should not have changed the terms of the guarantee for the coins that they already graded. Instead, they rescinded their guarantee on any red coin when it is sold. When I bought the PCGS graded coin shown here, I assumed that PCGS guarantee would still be valid whenever I sold that coin. There was no way to know that PCGS could change the terms of their guarantee whenever they wanted. With that action, PCGS broke their word on their existing graded coins. In my opinion, a TPG is successful to the extent that it is trusted by the community, and this change damages that trust
Here is an image of a Red coin that I own that PCGS will no longer guarantee if I sell:
So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. It would have been okay if they simply said the new rules apply to newly graded coins. Instead, they rescinded the guarantee on the coins that I already own. Yes, I take their decision very personally, and I am very unhappy.
I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call.
<< <i>Are you kidding me??? A '77 in 66RD? You DO have a huge stake in this decision PCGS has made. What a gorgeous Indian. I am jealous. Shag
So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. It would have been okay if they simply said the new rules apply to newly graded coins. Instead, they rescinded the guarantee on the coins that I already own. Yes, I take their decision very personally, and I am very unhappy.
I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call. >>
I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?
<< <i>So, Shag, do think that anybody who owns a coin like that would treat it poorly? Of course, I am careful to keep it in an appropriate environment.
And, please notice that it's in an old green holder. That coin has kept its color in that holder for about 20 years. But, PCGS has just broken their word to me on this coin. They changed the rules after I bought that coin six months ago. The new PCGS guarantee will make selling harder in the future. >>
I don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
>>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable?
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
>>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
Well if I'm a buyer looking for a 66RD 1877, I'm going to pay a bunch more for the OGH example posted above vs. a comparable coin in a recent style holder. I know that OGH has been that way for 10-15 years or so and the color is likely stable. With a blue holder I have no clue whether it was in the slab for a few years or if it was doctored last month and without a guarantee I would be very nervous about placing a fair bid. That said, if I were to be in the market for that type of coin I'd probably have an agent who knows their stuff assisting me. Beautiful coin
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
>>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
I agree that the OGH coin will be worth more than the blue holder coin in the future for the reasons stated above. Not certain whether or not the OGH coin will be worth more or less than it would have been under the guaranty - only time will tell.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> don't know that coin specifically, but I would guess that a really nice RD coin in an old green holder will actually be worth more, not less, based on the PCGS policy changes.
>>
Why would you say that? To me, the only thing that changes in a month is that a new buyer does not continue to hold a warranty from PCGS that the coin is and will remain Red. That would not make it more valuable. What else changes that would make it more valuable? >>
I agree that the OGH coin will be worth more than the blue holder coin in the future for the reasons stated above. Not certain whether or not the OGH coin will be worth more or less than it would have been under the guaranty - only time will tell. >>
I think that OGH red copper coins were already worth more than blue holder coins (generally). The only thing that changes in January is NOT favorable to that value. Or what am I missing CCU?
Who is John Galt?
In any event, I suspect this change will prompt bit of a run on Intercept Shield products.
I agree with you, and I have a simple suggestion for how PCGS can change the insert. Starting January 1, PCGS should grade coins RDw which stands for "Red without guarantee", and RBw, which stands for "Red-Brown without guarantee".
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i> I'm glad we're finally getting to the point that matters here. All PCGS has to do now in order to avoid complete mayhem is keep the guarantee on copper graded before 1/1/2010 for the life of the COIN (not just the current owner) and change the insert somehow on 1/1/2010, allowing collectors to instantly know if the coin they are thinking of purchasing comes with the guarantee or not. Implementing these two simple changes would put most of us at ease and would relieve PCGS of the onslaught of calls and letters they are about to get. Gosh, I hope PCGS is looking at this thread
I agree with you, and I have a simple suggestion for how PCGS can change the insert. Starting January 1, PCGS should grade coins RDw which stands for "Red without guarantee", and RBw, which stands for "Red-Brown without guarantee". >>
FWIW, I agree with you both. I would not expect PCGS to change its position, however.
<< <i>I think that OGH red copper coins were already worth more than blue holder coins (generally). The only thing that changes in January is NOT favorable to that value. Or what am I missing CCU? >>
I believe there will continue to be strong demand for RD coins at the high end of the market. And, in the case of 1877 Indian Cents, the coins of highest interest (even more so than before) will be the ones that have demonstrated stable color for the longest period. Which will mean coins in old holders, as well as coins with a pedigree proving they have looked like they do right now for a really long time.
>>Mark Feld said: I think Don Willis will take your call
Unfortunately, Don Willis did not return my phone call. I guess he has better things to do than speaking with collectors of red copper coins like this one:
<< <i>I intend to call Don Willis on Monday. I already know what will happen, however. He won't take my call.
>>Mark Feld said: I think Don Willis will take your call
Unfortunately, Don Willis did not return my phone call. I guess he has better things to do than speaking with collectors of red copper coins like this one:
>>
He still might return your call. Did you try any other means of contact as I originally suggested? "I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?"
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"I think Don Willis will take your call. But if you are concerned about that and not being heard, why not either send him a private message through the forum or email him?"
Yes, I sent him an email message. No response yet. I did receive a bulk email from Don inviting me to the PCGS Members Only Show in Las Vegas, however.
They are trying to prevent people from making a RD copper, unloading the coin, only to have it turn in the holder in under a year, with them having to make good on their guarantee. The PCGS graders are pros. They know that a coin which has been slabbed for nine years won't turn, unless you do something stupid, like live by the beach and keep the coin in an open window for a lengthy period of time.
My idea is to punish the coin doctors, and I think it would work well. Your point however, is correct in that you can't do anything to help people that are just plain stupid.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
It is too dramatic of a revocation of an iron clad guarantee that set PCGS from the rest of the industry.
I would have preferred to have seen PCGS offer some kind of an interim 5 year phaseout of such guarantee, to gracefully bow out of such guarantee and not leave the red copper collectors in the lurch on the pre 2010 slabbed red copper coins.
Then after the 5 years, there should be a 6 months to 1 year guarantee on all newly slabbed red copper. If PCGS is so concerned about slabbing red copper then don't grade copper as red anymore. Call them all redbrown.
<< <i>They are trying to prevent people from making a RD copper, unloading the coin, only to have it turn in the holder in under a year, with them having to make good on their guarantee. The PCGS graders are pros. >>
So why not make the waiting period at PCGS up to one year to make sure the red copper coin does NOT turn before PCGS agrees to slab it RD?
If I submit any coins in 2010, I would be willing to have PCGS hold my raw copper coin for up one year so that PCGS can make sure it stays red before and after it is slabbed.
This would separate the collectors who can wait, from the doctors who can't wait.
I would also pay PCGS extra for the extra handling involved.
They need to honor their lifetime guarantee on coins already slabbed. Why doesn't Longacre or another lawyer opine on the legal aspects of recinding a lifetime guarantee....
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
If they have the numbers to back it up, I also don't have a problem with their putting some sort of limits on the time length of a RD copper guarantee. The thing is, as Stewart wrote, he properly stores his RD copper and he has never had a problem with any of it. I bought my 1909 P IHC in PC 5 RD in 1998. It was in an OGH, so I'm guessing the coin was slabbed five years before that, give or take. The coin looks just like it did when I bought it. Just my 2 cents.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Here's my problem. The PCGS graders are, indeed, pros. If they can't detect a recolored coin, then I know that I can't detect it either.
Basically, PCGS is now saying that it is too risky for them to guarantee copper Red (or Red-Brown). Well, if it is now too risky for them to guarantee those coins, isn't it too risky for me to buy those PCGS coins?
Look, I understand PCGS feels they have to do something...introduce a new policy about future submissions, grading and guarantees. But don't ever, ever go back on your word on past promises. That is a business death sentence.
Many of us spent a lot of money on PCGS coins -- through purchases and grading, believing and trusting in PCGS. We are NOT okay with reneging on pledges.
Say what you will about copper and your buying habits or interests. You don't like RD or trust RD or even copper? Fine. But if you do...and you jumped in with comfort because of PCGS guarantees, then to suddenly find you have been had is a lesson not soon forgotten.
This is a very, very poor business decision by PCGS. Short-sighted and bad for their future and collectors who trusted them.
Lance.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Steve
<< <i>If I was a coin doctor, I would use the former PCGS guarantee to my advantage. I would buy as many RD coppers I could then subject the slab and coins to the conditions that would turn them BN, and cash in. With this in mind, I understand PCGS stance, but they should guarantee all coins they graded RD or RB before the date of the new policy. It's the only correct method of dealing with the problem. >>
I've thought about this myself but couldn't think how such an act would be of any advantage to the spoiler. Reason being, if the coin is bought at a RD price, they would only receive what they paid. But than again, they would land a blow to the grading company who had to pay for the doctoring. RD coins could be bought in a down market, doctored then wait for the next bull market to take advantage of the GG but why wouldn't they just sell them and profit over time. Again, most likely to make the TPGS pay. Perhaps someone could give their opinion on how someone could "cash in' by ruining a coin while it's in the slab. Or they could be buying up coins that have already turned in the holder and they're cashing in this way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If I submit any coins in 2010, I would be willing to have PCGS hold my raw copper coin for up one year so that PCGS can make sure it stays red before and after it is slabbed.
This would separate the collectors who can wait, from the doctors who can't wait.
I'm sure NGC would like to see PCGS do this!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I hope when the 01/01/2010 cutoff date arrives, PCGS covers all coins slabbed under the guarantee prior to that date. It's the fair thing to do.
I don't have a huge stake in coppers though. Mine lone RD copper is a 1930 Lincoln in PSGS MS66RD plastic. No biggie. Now my MS63RB S-VDB is different but it's 2/3 red and I don't see it ever becoming a problem.
I understand PCGS' position completely, but hope they consider coins slabbed prior to the cutoff as guaranteed regardless of ownership.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes, although PCGS's actions has caused me to rethink my entire view of collecting. I will either start buying NGC slabs, or, alternatively, move to a different hobby. Haven't decided yet. I'm really disappointed in PCGS.
<< <i>
This would separate the collectors who can wait, from the doctors who can't wait.
>>
Apparently the collectors who can wait don't shop on ebay...
<< <i>I can see this new policy benefiting NGC. Is anyone here planning to buy more red copper in NGC slabs rather than PCGS slabs in the future? >>
Cancelled my CC membership a few months ago and deleted all my coins from the Registry. All my coins are on the B/S/T at cost. Definately NGC for me. I fully understand each person has their own decision to make around these recent changes and I've made mine. My five free gradings will go unused also.
https://www.smallcopperguy.com