What can you tell me about overdates?

SilverEagles92 · December 5, 2009 6:15AM

Why did they occur?

SilverEagles92 · December 5, 2009 7:09AM

tahoe98 · December 5, 2009 7:13AM

.......good question! i'll have to look in the red book. sometimes they have the answers for questions like this. i'm very curious now.

SilverEagles92 · December 5, 2009 7:27AM

I checked the Index, and "Overdates" was not listed

SeaEagleCoins · December 5, 2009 7:33AM

<< Why did they occur? >>

well... 1st I made a date with one woman...and forgot... then I asked another woman out... and then, this real fox came along and we made plans... then Saturday nite came along and my wife told me we had plans to go out clubbing... wham... that's when the trouble began....

sorry... could not resist...

tahoe98 · December 5, 2009 7:50AM

<< 

<< Why did they occur? >>

well... 1st I made a date with one woman...and forgot... then I asked another woman out... and then, this real fox came along and we made plans... then Saturday nite came along and my wife told me we had plans to go out clubbing... wham... that's when the trouble began....

sorry... could not resist...

>>

.......are you talking about the same clubbing woods got?

carl · December 5, 2009 8:13AM

On another forum there was sort of a real argument going on how these occur. Some claim all are only double dies. Others claim they are accidents. Then there is the possible theory that they were old dies and the dates were changed but not completely. Of course they could all be from someone at the mint carefully placing a coin in the exact place where a new one should have been and there is now a new date. Is it possible thoes are coins accidently left in place for a few years at the Mint. Could all of tose be simply optical illusions? Are they magic?
My theory is there is a secret organization working in the Mint but for the Mint. They are responible for making, distributing and popularizing error coins. This is done to make more and more people collect and hoard coins. By doing that, more and more coins are required to be produced by the Mint. This creates the necessity to not only make the Mint workers continue their jobs but at times even work overtime. These coins are actually a MESS. That is short for the Mint Error Secret Service.
And you thought you had something, HUH?

Broadstruck · December 5, 2009 8:21AM

Overdating is when less attractive people become involved with someone who is far more physically attractive than themselves.

ponderit · December 5, 2009 8:25AM

Quoting from a book addressing errors,
"An overdate is defined as: A date on a coin which was formed with one or more digits cut, punched, or hubbed over a different digit or digits, or a digit such as a 6 which had been inverted in the die, so that all or parts of both dates show on the struck coin."

"A 1/0 is an overdate, a 1/1 is not. the right slash maens "over". An inverted 9 that becomes a 6 or vice versa is considered to be an onverdate and not a double date."

"Overdates may be cut the engraving tools, may be punched with a single number punch or a logo punch, or may be hubbed, caused by the use of one hub over a different hub, each hub having a different date. All of the 20th century overdates on U.S. coinsare double hubbed, described as Desighn Hub Doubling."

RWB · December 5, 2009 8:27AM

The superficial answer is that an overdate occurs when one or more digits in the date on a die are repunched into the die. If the digits are different – say a 5 over the original 4 – it’s called an overdate. If it is the same digit then it is called a repunched digit.

But, beyond this, there is a lot of complexity and some level of disagreement over how, why and when these were done. There is also the overdate caused by using dated working hubs for two different years to produce one working die, but this is a singularly 20th century event.

Check the Coin World on-line, or the ANA glossary and search for old posts on the subject.

astrorat · December 5, 2009 8:27AM

Generally overdates are from the reuse of dies for another date. For example, 1814 over 13 CBH occur when an 1813 die was reused to strike coins dated 1814. The "new" 1814 die was not lapped in a way so that the "underdate" was removed. This can also happen with multiple digits, such as the 1820/19 CBH.

The reason the dies were reused was that they were expensive and time-consuming to prepare and the US Mint was less concerned about producing a "perfect" coin as much as they were concerned about producing appropriate coins for commerce.

There is some confusion/disagreement on the definition of some of the more modern "overdates" such as the 1942/41 Mercury dime. The coin is not actually an overdate in the traditional sense, but rather a doubled die. A 1941 working die was rehubbed using a 1942 hub as opposed to a digit being "repunched" into a working die. Steel was in relatively short supply during WWII and it would not have been prudent to discard a workable die just because it had the prior year's date.

I hope that helps some.

Lane

Edited to add...Correction: Although steel may have been in short supply, such was not the cases for the US Mint. It was more likely that the short supply of skilled labor led to a decrease in quality control measures. Thanks, Roger.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 5, 2009 8:32AM

I defer to TD or RWB, but I think this was done in the machine shop by men , led by men who believed in re-using things to save money.

tahoe98 · December 5, 2009 9:51AM

<< On another forum there was sort of a real argument going on how these occur. Some claim all are only double dies. Others claim they are accidents. Then there is the possible theory that they were old dies and the dates were changed but not completely. Of course they could all be from someone at the mint carefully placing a coin in the exact place where a new one should have been and there is now a new date. Is it possible thoes are coins accidently left in place for a few years at the Mint. Could all of tose be simply optical illusions? Are they magic?
My theory is there is a secret organization working in the Mint but for the Mint. They are responible for making, distributing and popularizing error coins. This is done to make more and more people collect and hoard coins. By doing that, more and more coins are required to be produced by the Mint. This creates the necessity to not only make the Mint workers continue their jobs but at times even work overtime. These coins are actually a MESS. That is short for the Mint Error Secret Service.
And you thought you had something, HUH? >>

.......carl, shouldn't you be out standing on a ledge?

TomB · December 5, 2009 9:54AM

I believe some were made in order to conserve die steel, workman time and other resources by using otherwise perfectly acceptable obverse dies in years subsequent to their original production and usage.

slumlord98 · December 5, 2009 10:05AM

I can think of only two overdated dies where the die was first used in the year of the underdate, overdated and used again in that year, those being one of the 6/5 quarter obverses and 1806 O.104. For half dollars, other overdates were dies never used in the year of the underdate, they were merely set aside and used later.

Die steel was a precious commodity, but the finished dies were moreso. From mid 1806 on, dies were turned to a conical end which was demanding work.

SilverEagles92 · December 5, 2009 10:11AM

Thanks for the information.

So, the dates were just basically scraped off and re-engraved with the new date?

RWB · December 5, 2009 10:11AM

According to mint documents, a silver dollar coinage die cost approximately $25 - equal to ten times the per diem pay of most mint employees. In the 1930 the mint charged $300 for a pair of dies to strike commemorative half dollars.

Most of the cost of a die was in labor. Except for the early decades, availability of good die steel was not a major problem.

AUandAG · December 5, 2009 10:16AM

Some overdates must clearly be by accident. For instance the 1853/4 quarter dollar.
Otherwise you would expect the reverse or 1854/3.

Of course it could very well be intentional by an employee that was drinking too much at lunch
and got the year confused.

I've always wondered how this one could have happened. Sorry but I don't have a pic as
I've only owned one and sold it many moons ago.

bob

Manorcourtman · December 5, 2009 10:33AM

<< Some overdates must clearly be by accident. For instance the 1853/4 quarter dollar.
Otherwise you would expect the reverse or 1854/3.

Of course it could very well be intentional by an employee that was drinking too much at lunch
and got the year confused.

I've always wondered how this one could have happened. Sorry but I don't have a pic as
I've only owned one and sold it many moons ago.

bob >>

Speak of the devil......I just happen to have one

AUandAG · December 5, 2009 10:37AM

<< 

<< Some overdates must clearly be by accident. For instance the 1853/4 quarter dollar.
Otherwise you would expect the reverse or 1854/3.

Of course it could very well be intentional by an employee that was drinking too much at lunch
and got the year confused.

I've always wondered how this one could have happened. Sorry but I don't have a pic as
I've only owned one and sold it many moons ago.

bob >>

Speak of the devil......I just happen to have one

>>

Yep, looks like the one I had......guess they all look like that tho!
bob

BaseballAbs · December 5, 2009 12:38PM

The engravers at the mint wanted to save time and money. Which now plays a part in keeping our interest in coin collecting.

Ed1840 · December 6, 2009 1:23AM

<< 

<< Why did they occur? >>

well... 1st I made a date with one woman...and forgot... then I asked another woman out... and then, this real fox came along and we made plans... then Saturday nite came along and my wife told me we had plans to go out clubbing... wham... that's when the trouble began....

sorry... could not resist...

>>

I assume that means you were triple punched.

sinin1 · December 6, 2009 1:32AM

the 1918/7's were made during the hubbing in Philadelphia

a mint worker accidentally grabbed a partially completed 17 obverse and mad a few more punches with the 18

nickel die sent to Denver
quarter die sent to San Fran

those mints added their mm and started minting

BillJones · December 6, 2009 1:43AM

Here are a couple of reasons for overdate coins.

Coin dies have always been expensive, but they were especially so in the early days of the U.S. mint. Often the mint would prepare dies for the year and then not use them. Quite often they would then strike coins dated the year before, but at times they would punch a new date over the old one.

It was not too bad when it involved only one digit, but in 1800 the mint personnel decided to rescue a couple of dies that had been prepared for the 1790s. One was an 1800 over 1798 and the other was an 1800 over 79. In the latter case, the die had been prepared with the date as 179_. The intent was to add the final number when the die went into service, but in this case the second and third digits changed with the turn of the century, which required a change for them before the final digit could be added.

Overdates in the early years were almost always punched into dies that had not been used previously. The reason for this was that the dies had to be softened and hardened in order to change the digit, and that usually made a previously used die too fragile for future strikes. The one exception to my knowledge to this generalization is the 1805 Browning 4 and 1806 over 5 Browning 1 quarters. In that case the 1805 die was used to strike some quarters and then it was given the overdate and used to strike more quarters with the overdate in 1806.

Modern overdate coins are more likely to mistakes. The two 1942 over 1 dimes (Philadelphia and Denver mints) were die sinking errors. It takes three blows from the hub to sink a working coin die. When the dies were prepared for these coins, a 1941 hub was used for the first blows from the hub, and then the year changed and a 1942 hub was used for the finishing strike.

What can you tell me about overdates?

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