1) Many years ago, the powers that be designated a coin RB if it had between 5% and 95% original RD. Ten years ago or more, this quietly changed. For a coin to be designated RB, it had clearly have > 20% RD (preferably 25% or more) to be designated RB. The unwary bought the older holdered copper designated RB - which was BN by the new standards - at RB Prices.
2) At the same time, copper got the coveted RD designation with "mellowed color," and sometimes with 85-90% original RD.
3) Over the years, it has been my experience that PCGS has been more conservative in grading copper IHCs, Large and Half Cents. This applied to color (it was harder to get one of these coins in a PC RD holder than an NGC RD holder), as well as the actual numerical grade of the coin.
4) The older the copper coin, the greater price premium is placed on copper with more original RD color. This created more temptations for coin doctors to make a RD Large Cent, sell it, and have PCGS or NGC hold the bag when the coin turned. A good doctor can make a RD coin and get it holdered. Copper people have known this for quite some time, and would not pay a premium for a RD coin unless it was in an old holder. Ie., the only RD copper I own is a 1909 P IHC in an OGH. If a RD coin has been holdered for a long time, you know it hasn't been "played with."
5) Here's the problem: Unless you go by the types of holders (excepting expensive pedigreed RD copper which only a handful people can afford), you can't tell when PCGS slabbed a coin. I, and many others will not buy a RD copper if I cannot tell when it was holdered.
I can see PCGS's point. It's very difficult to spot a RD copper which has just been doctored, so they don't want to deal with it. You can't withhold grading a coin for six months or so (to see if the color turns), so this is the decision that they made.
6) Here's the problem for collectors: Imo, PCGS copper is more attractive -- and consistently sells for more money -- than its NGC counterpart. As I indicated above, I think there is a good reason for this. However, NGC now has a better copper guarantee than PCGS.
As others have indicated, I think the intelligent thing to do is either stick to PC RB or BN copper. If you want RD copper, make sure it's in an old PCGS holder -- or otherwise satisfy yourself that said coin has been in the same holder for an acceptable length of time -- or else get a nice one in an NGC holder if the guarantee is an issue for you.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Not having a short term guarantee (even shorter than NGC's 10 years) is very scary.
Say I submit my RD copper for reholdering when I get to 90% and I want my pedigree on my slabs and while they are being reholdered at PCGS something gets on the surface of my coin, say an employee sneezes on it Then a few months/years later, my previously perfect red now has unattractive spotting that wouldn't be covered by PCGS. But if it were any non-copper coin the same situation would be covered.
I'd like to know how Andy at AngelDees feels about this one? If I do buy any PCGS copper in the future, I will be much more selective in this process. Most definately sight seen!!! So has the value in coins such as this one that I used to own increased or decreased?
Edited to add: How are cosigners feeling right now about their copper in the FUN Show?
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
It's not too late to change your mind, PCGS! >>
I think part of the problem is with coin doctors. What's keeping them from turning a very expensive red copper to brown to capitalize on the grade guarantee?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Copper being such a reactive metal I always thought that PCGS were going out on a limb with their guarantee on uncirculated copper coins in the first place and I'm not surprised by their change in policy.
I've always thought the TPG's were stupid to guarantee the RD or RB designation on copper coins, because copper is the most reactive metal used in coins and can easily be altered (even in the slab). I think it is dumb that they even use a RD, RB, or BRN designation at all. If your eyes are so poor that you can't tell what color a penny you are looking at is without reading the label on a slab, you probably shouldn't be buying coins at all. I think it is a good move for PCGS to no longer back the color assigned to copper.
You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. My question is how does one prove other than a receipt/bill of sale when they purchased the coin? PCGS could always take the stance without a receipt.........too bad.
Here are some detailed figures of the money we've paid out under the terms of our grading guarantee. The following is the total amount paid in each of the last six calendar years;
2003...$365,525 2004...$222,227 2005...$507,692 2006...$382,384 2007...$562,541 2008...$1,945,755 2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE ABOVE FIGURES WERE FOR COPPER COLOR ISSUES?
What does THAT number represent as a percentage of total revenue? 1%? .5%? .01%? Why not just raise all the fees by that % or raise just the copper fees enough to cover it?
By reading the forum all these years I got the impression it's always been about the coin.....not the plastic nor the grade label. How many threads have been started about buy the coin not the holder? How many people have been criticized for overemphasizing the plastic? One could write a novel on those threads.
If you can't grade your own coin and differentiate between bad and good coins you have no business buying them. At least that's what I've learned here over and over again. "Good" collectors don't need PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc. Since when is a PCGS RD/RB/BN label the definitive answer? Collectors buy coins, not plastic nor labels. They don't need PCGS to tell them what to buy. It was so before 1986 and should always remain so. It's just an opinion. Stewart, Naftzger, and others would have built their copper collections with or without PCGS based on their own expertise and desires. It should matter squat to them whether there is a RED grade guarantee or not. They are all big boys and know the stakes.
<< <i>Here are some detailed figures of the money we've paid out under the terms of our grading guarantee. The following is the total amount paid in each of the last six calendar years;
2003...$365,525 2004...$222,227 2005...$507,692 2006...$382,384 2007...$562,541 2008...$1,945,755 2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE ABOVE FIGURES WERE FOR COPPER COLOR ISSUES?
What does THAT number represent as a percentage of total revenue? 1%? .5%? .01%? Why not just raise all the fees by that % or raise just the copper fees enough to cover it? >>
Last quarter PCGS revenues were $9.3M. Assuming 2009 payouts against the guarantee were evenly spread, this means approximately $125k was paid out in that quarter. That's a bit more than 1% of revenues. Given CLCT gross margins for that quarter were 60%, that means around 2% of gross profits go toward the payout last year for all coins. Presumably copper coins was some fraction of this, so the real impact of this decision is something less.
<< <i>If you can't grade your own coin and differentiate between bad and good coins you have no business buying them. At least that's what I've learned here over and over again. "Good" collectors don't need PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc. Since when is a PCGS RD/RB/BN label the definitive answer? Collectors buy coins, not plastic nor labels. They don't need PCGS to tell them what to buy. It was so before 1986 and should always remain so. It's just an opinion. Stewart, Naftzger, and others would have built their copper collections with or without PCGS based on their own expertise and desires. It should matter squat to them whether there is a RED grade guarantee or not. They are all big boys and know the stakes.
roadrunner >>
This is true, but the collectors who they would sell the coins to may not be close to being the experts that they are, and if that guarantee becomes null and void the second ownership is transferred, then the average collector would pay less for the coin due to being scared. For this reason, this change impacts ALL copper collectors, including the biggest names. There is still time to change this or at least eliminate the "sale of " part of the policy, which makes no sense whatsoever.
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head".
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head". >>
Mike, whether you agree with the other Mike's points or not, your reply seems uncalled for and extremely rude. I think you also badly mischaracterized his attitude.
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head". >>
Mike, whether you agree with the other Mike's points or not, your reply seems uncalled for and extremely rude. I think you also badly mischaracterized his attitude. >>
"Bill you are SO right on that one. So much emphasis and value is placed on old red copper but for my money I'd much prefer a really nice RB or brown coin with stable surfaces. The chance of problems down the line is just too great to take the risk. JMHO of course, I know it flies in the face of those who love red copper." You guys are worried aboou a Red copper coin that was slabbed 10-20 years ago and is still red? I could see if it was slabbed last week.
Putiing Nitrogen into a holder does nothing. If the holder is airtight the nitrogen is not needed and if the holder is not airtight the nitrogen will leak out anyway.
I still think original red copper has stable surfaces. The problem is copper that has been artificially made red. I have a whitman album that must've been some kind of a kit that came with full red memorial cents from 1959 to 1982. I put the cents into the album in 1982. This album was in Montana from 1982 to 1988, San Diego from 1988-1994, Monterey from 1994-1997, Eugene, OR from 1997-1998 and Colorado from 1998 until present. A variety of climates from humid to dry and the coins are still as vibrant and red as they were when I put them in the album in 1982.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>I'd like to know how Andy at AngelDees feels about this one? If I do buy any PCGS copper in the future, I will be much more selective in this process. Most definately sight seen!!! So has the value in coins such as this one that I used to own increased or decreased?
Edited to add: How are cosigners feeling right now about their copper in the FUN Show? >>
Wow. The rattler "myth" lives. That's a sure 66 upgrade. Gold sticker for that one!
This is probably all my fault. I must have sent too many red copper cents to PCGS for spot review.
I even had a thread right here in which I expressed concern that coin collectors all over the world are storing red copper coins improperly and the causal factors involved.
relicsncoins said: The problem is copper that has been artificially made red
Unfortunately, Don Willis didn't say that in his email. Instead, he said that the problem is humidity in Florida and Hawaii.
If humidity is really the problem then there is a much simpler solution: Put a desiccant inside the slab, near the coin, and charge a bit more to slab red copper to cover the additional cost.
This deal sounds better than it actually is.I've been involved in a number of these through the years and don't think I've received even $100 in value from the whole litter of 'em.
How does $1.50 per affected coin sound to you? Of course,the class has to actually win before you get a red cent (no pun intended) so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
"The way I read it, that coin would still be covered, unless it has changed hands (i.e. has been sold) subsequent to 1/1/10."
I probably missed a point does this mean that the guarantee only applies if the coin in the PCGS slab designated R is in the hand of the original owner. A coin slabbed in 2009 by dealer A and sold to dealer B and then to collector1 is not covered (unless dealer A can be identified and the coin sold to him/her.?.
I would've liked to have seen the announcement of a truly airtight holder made in conjunction with this. I understand there is an expensive problem out there that PCGS has to deal with. To me, the better way to take care of the customer would be to fix the problem with the holder, not take away the guarantee. Having the only air-tight slab in the business would also bring in more $$$$, I would think, as people with copper in other slabs would want to get them into the airtight ones. Also, with the recent wave of fake PCGS slabs from China, a redesign wouldn't be a bad thing.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
Don Willis, in his announcement, stated that color change in copper coins is due to humidity, especially in climates like Florida or Hawaii.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
<< <i>If humidity is really the problem then there is a much simpler solution: Put a desiccant inside the slab, near the coin, and charge a bit more to slab red copper to cover the additional cost. >>
Wouldn't work. Desiccant (eg., silica gel) becomes saturated over time. It can be recharged by heating in the oven for a few hours. Not a good idea for a slab!
I can understand PCGS's change of policy. It was a mistake to guarantee red copper in the first place. They were really putting their financial health on the line with such a guarantee. Copper is a reactive metal. It oxidizes over time, more quickly in humid climates. IMO, 99% of red copper over 100 years old has been messed with.
Ira, I like your thinking. Something different needs to be done.
Of course the problem with the more-than-one-year guarantee you propose is that collectors whose coins turn in less than a year will simply wait until a year has elapsed and allege the trouble just arose. But I agree with your sentiment.
Since Don's announcement I have ceased buying any copper and I am normally rabid about PCGS-only upgrades to my early Lincoln set. I will probably abandon any further purchases or trades if this new policy is implemented and persists. Lance.
<< <i>Don Willis, in his announcement, stated that color change in copper coins is due to humidity, especially in climates like Florida or Hawaii.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
Ira >>
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins.
I'll raise the level of thinking on inerting the slabs:
1. Just about all plastics offgas over time. the materials that the slabs and gaskets are made of need to be carefully controlled. Gaskets being softer means they are more likely t be unstable. vacuum packing would INCREASE the level of offgasing and thus could increase toning rather than decrease it. Sealing nitrogen in would help more but still would not prevent the plastics from offgasing (see temperature discussion below).
2. Sealing in nitrogen adds an entire new dimension to the business and would likely increase the cost. Since nitrogen is a suffocation hazard, the use of nitrogen in the sealing process would significantly increase the difficulty. Laws would require a lot of safety programs be implemented. Increasing the difficulty increases the error rate....many downstream implications. However, successful sealing of the coins in a pure nitrogen atmosphere should indeed keep them red. The easiest way to do this would be in a spherical metal case, but that would make them harder to look at.
3. I'm not convinced that humidity is the real problem. You need to know what the chemical reaction involved is. For example with Silver is is usuallly silfidation so controlling sulfur for silver is much more important. Sulfur also reacts strongly with copper. Chlorides are common in plastics and bad for just about all metals.
4. Sealing a slab makes it temperature sensitive. If there is significant volume of gas in it then leaving it in the car in the summer would cause the inside to pressurize, probably cracking the slab and releasing the inerting gas. Temperature also causes in increase in offgassing from plastics.
That's all that comes to mind now but as a nuclear mechanical systems engineer with experience in chemistry and metallurgy, I'm sure I'll come up with more as time goes on. --Jerry
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins. >>
One thing that may have contributed to this change in policy is the toning of the 2009 special copper (95%) cents. The mint included a note with them that Toning is natural and you should expect it....as a seller of these I'm finding a lot of them toning per the mint predictions. PCGS can do nothing about this. What would you do?
If one recognizes that ultimately the only tangible product which a TPGS offers is the capsule holding a coin, it becomes very difficult to rationalize that the market accepability of the color of a coin which is supposed to be protected by that product would not motivate the brightest minds in the scientific world to create a tangible product that would maintain that color, especially at a current liability of nearly 4 million dollars.
<< <i>I can't wait to see what Mr. Blay has to say. >>
Ya, I also mentioned that in another thread. I wonder if he has been writing it all night. Hopefully not in all caps. Actually he has earned the right to type in all caps on this one
Maybe Our Eminency will film another interview with Stewert on this issue instead and they could charge a pay-per-view on the Coin Facts Network. I would pay $49.95 for that in a NY minute......MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Why should they? The fact that they have a grade gaurantee is something special in itself. Why should they be on the hook for anything other than slabbing a fake coin?
<< <i>Don Willis, in his announcement, stated that color change in copper coins is due to humidity, especially in climates like Florida or Hawaii.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
Ira >>
This proposed solution is completely unworkable in the marketplace. No collector would purchase a PCGS coin until they called to find out when it was slabbed - and even if they did and it turned, as previously stated, they'd just hold it for a year and then submit it for review
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins. >>
One thing that may have contributed to this change in policy is the toning of the 2009 special copper (95%) cents. The mint included a note with them that Toning is natural and you should expect it....as a seller of these I'm finding a lot of them toning per the mint predictions. PCGS can do nothing about this. What would you do?
-Jerry >>
We have no way of knowing if the new '09 cent was a factor and can only assume not as it was'nt outlined in the email as a reason for the change. But if that was a major consideration I can see where pgcs; or any tpg; would want to protect themselves against this one year change. But the concerns of a one year coin is not the real issue here, what should have been done by pcgs is to create a grandfather clause. As Ira pointed out pcgs has the database and it would not be a problem to grandfather in coins slabbed prior to the change date. Even as little as a five year phase-out of the guarantee would allow those collectors that wished to a chance to liquidate their pcgs holdered. But with this harsh and short notice cutoff collectors could be left holding the bag.
When I did a search for the word "strike", this thread did not come up. So I'm addiing it here, strike, strike, strike to make sure when I do another search since no-one here cared to mention it since it was another eye opening change to the way our coins are graded and valued.......anyway, nothing to see here, you can all go back to whatever you were discussing.
The strike, who cares!
Leo
Edited now before I do my new search, I'll just say that it did work, thank you!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> I can understand PCGS's change of policy. It was a mistake to guarantee red copper in the first place. They were really putting their financial health on the line with such a guarantee. >>
But they DID do it- and that's the point. Whether they should or shouldn't have is irrelevant. A lifetime guarantee on copper is just what it says. It's for the lifetime of the coin, NOT just the owner. High-grade copper collectors have used PCGS almost exclusively and have paid extra over the years for the privilege of sleeping better at night. Now, unless they change the "you can't sell the coin" part of their new policy, the lifetime guarantee is instantly gone without a trace.
I also must comment on some non-copper collectors who are chiming in how the time for this was coming, even warranted. To those collectors I say this: watch out what you're so gleeful about because if they can take one guarantee away, they can take away any of them- maybe even on what YOU collect. We must stop this before it goes any further.
Another alternative is to go after the people behind the submission of doctored copper. PCGS knows who submits each coin, and when it is submitted. If a copper goes bad within a specific amount of time, PCGS could contact the submitter and ask some "pointed questions." Couple this with the realization that numismatics is a small village; the who's who all know one another. Either a submitter is the guilty party, or will "fess up" re the coin doctor who 'suggested' he submit this coin.
PCGS can modify their copper guarantee to the effect that if the coin goes bad with a specific period (say a year of submission), they will track down the guilty party, and said invidivual will be on the hook to the damaged party, or else face civil, and possibly criminal prosecution. If someone knowingly tries to cover up a defect in an auto and sells it as if the problem didn't exist, he can be prosecuted civilly and criminally for doing so. I don't see why this same concept would not apply to doctoring a copper to get it in a holder with a RD designation.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Another alternative is to go after the people behind the submission of doctored copper. PCGS knows who submits each coin, and when it is submitted. If a copper goes bad within a specific amount of time, PCGS could contact the submitter and ask some "pointed questions." Couple this with the realization that numismatics is a small village; the who's who all know one another. Either a submitter is the guilty party, or will "fess up" re the coin doctor who 'suggested' he submit this coin.
PCGS can modify their copper guarantee to the effect that if the coin goes bad with a specific period (say a year of submission), they will track down the guilty party, and said invidivual will be on the hook to the damaged party, or else face civil, and possibly criminal prosecution. If someone knowingly tries to cover up a defect in an auto and sells it as if the problem didn't exist, he can be prosecuted civilly and criminally for doing so. I don't see why this same concept would not apply to doctoring a copper to get it in a holder with a RD designation. >>
This is a terrible idea. Example: I'm a small time collector. I sell my 1865 2c full red copper to someone on eBay. I've owned the coin for 10 yrs. The eBay moron is actually some guy in the woods of Vermont who buries the slab in his backyard under the maple tree. He digs it up 9 months later, washes the slab off and is shocked that it's now brown. PCGS is going to come after ME??? Or do they eventually investigate the current owner to discover his storage methods? All this investigation will cost them more than just having the guarantee to begin with.
I understand the need to make changes concerning RD/RB/BN copper beginning next year.
However, will the Set Registry rules remain the same? Specifically, I am concerned with the weighted values of RD and RB coins in many sets. It would seem irresponsible to me to reward collectors with bonus points for risking -- in some cases -- tens of thousands of dollars or more to purchase a RD coin for their set. You would essentially be saying, "We won't guarantee this RD coin, but if you are crazy enough to take a chance on it, we'll give you a bonus!"
IMO, if the guarantee goes away, so should the RD/RB/BN designations on newly slabbed coins and the weighted bonuses in the set registry. Let the marketplace determine the value of a piece of copper, pre-2010 slabs too.
<< <i>I can't wait to see what Mr. Blay has to say. >>
Ya, I also mentioned that in another thread. I wonder if he has been writing it all night. Hopefully not in all caps. Actually he has earned the right to type in all caps on this one
Maybe Our Eminency will film another interview with Stewert on this issue instead and they could charge a pay-per-view on the Coin Facts Network. I would pay $49.95 for that in a NY minute......MJ >>
Stewart made the post below to a recent thread on the Registry Set forum here:
<< <i>I have no problem with the new PCGS policy regarding copper coins. I also believe it will be good for the hobby and collectors in the long run.
I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders.
Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee.
Comments
1) Many years ago, the powers that be designated a coin RB if it had between 5% and 95% original RD. Ten years ago or more, this quietly changed. For a coin to be designated RB, it had clearly have > 20% RD (preferably 25% or more) to be designated RB. The unwary bought the older holdered copper designated RB - which was BN by the new standards - at RB Prices.
2) At the same time, copper got the coveted RD designation with "mellowed color," and sometimes with 85-90% original RD.
3) Over the years, it has been my experience that PCGS has been more conservative in grading copper IHCs, Large and Half Cents. This applied to color (it was harder to get one of these coins in a PC RD holder than an NGC RD holder), as well as the actual numerical grade of the coin.
4) The older the copper coin, the greater price premium is placed on copper with more original RD color. This created more temptations for coin doctors to make a RD Large Cent, sell it, and have PCGS or NGC hold the bag when the coin turned. A good doctor can make a RD coin and get it holdered. Copper people have known this for quite some time, and would not pay a premium for a RD coin unless it was in an old holder. Ie., the only RD copper I own is a 1909 P IHC in an OGH. If a RD coin has been holdered for a long time, you know it hasn't been "played with."
5) Here's the problem: Unless you go by the types of holders (excepting expensive pedigreed RD copper which only a handful people can afford), you can't tell when PCGS slabbed a coin. I, and many others will not buy a RD copper if I cannot tell when it was holdered.
I can see PCGS's point. It's very difficult to spot a RD copper which has just been doctored, so they don't want to deal with it. You can't withhold grading a coin for six months or so (to see if the color turns), so this is the decision that they made.
6) Here's the problem for collectors: Imo, PCGS copper is more attractive -- and consistently sells for more money -- than its NGC counterpart.
As I indicated above, I think there is a good reason for this. However, NGC now has a better copper guarantee than PCGS.
As others have indicated, I think the intelligent thing to do is either stick to PC RB or BN copper. If you want RD copper, make sure it's in an old PCGS holder -- or otherwise satisfy yourself that said coin has been in the same holder for an acceptable length of time -- or else get a nice one in an NGC holder if the guarantee is an issue for you.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Say I submit my RD copper for reholdering when I get to 90% and I want my pedigree on my slabs and while they are being reholdered at PCGS something gets on the surface of my coin, say an employee sneezes on it
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Edited to add: How are cosigners feeling right now about their copper in the FUN Show?
<< <i>Here is what PCGS should've done:
They should have said that, starting Jan. 1, 2010, there will be a five year limit on any newly graded red copper. PCGS should have also announced that existing copper-color guarantees expire when a coin is sold, unless the "copper color" is renewed. They should have offered a reduced cost ($10 or $15), copper-color renewal fee, which would involve inspecting a coin inside of its holder and renewing its color-guarantee for another five years (in which case, the certification data on the web-site would be updated).
This approach would be friendlier to the market and would also generate revenue for PCGS. The amount of additional revenue generated should compensate for the risk of extending copper guarantees.
It's not too late to change your mind, PCGS! >>
I think part of the problem is with coin doctors. What's keeping them from turning a very expensive red copper to brown to capitalize on the grade guarantee?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>But it really doesn't seem that hard to make an airtight slab - why not?
How would you know a slab was airtight? And if someone accidently drop a slab, how would you know the slab was still airtight?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word?
2003...$365,525
2004...$222,227
2005...$507,692
2006...$382,384
2007...$562,541
2008...$1,945,755
2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE ABOVE FIGURES WERE FOR COPPER COLOR ISSUES?
What does THAT number represent as a percentage of total revenue? 1%? .5%? .01%? Why not just raise all the fees by that % or raise just the copper fees enough to cover it?
If you can't grade your own coin and differentiate between bad and good coins you have no business buying them. At least that's what I've learned here over and over again. "Good" collectors don't need PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc. Since when is a PCGS RD/RB/BN label the definitive answer? Collectors buy coins, not plastic nor labels. They don't need PCGS to tell them what to buy. It was so before 1986 and should always remain so. It's just an opinion. Stewart, Naftzger, and others would have built their copper collections with or without PCGS based on their own expertise and desires. It should matter squat to them whether there is a RED grade guarantee or not. They are all big boys and know the stakes.
roadrunner
<< <i>Here are some detailed figures of the money we've paid out under the terms of our grading guarantee. The following is the total amount paid in each of the last six calendar years;
2003...$365,525
2004...$222,227
2005...$507,692
2006...$382,384
2007...$562,541
2008...$1,945,755
2009 (thru Dec 1)...$498,798
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE ABOVE FIGURES WERE FOR COPPER COLOR ISSUES?
What does THAT number represent as a percentage of total revenue? 1%? .5%? .01%? Why not just raise all the fees by that % or raise just the copper fees enough to cover it?
Last quarter PCGS revenues were $9.3M. Assuming 2009 payouts against the guarantee were evenly spread, this means approximately $125k was paid out in that quarter. That's a bit more than 1% of revenues. Given CLCT gross margins for that quarter were 60%, that means around 2% of gross profits go toward the payout last year for all coins. Presumably copper coins was some fraction of this, so the real impact of this decision is something less.
Source: Article on CLCT quarterly report
<< <i>If you can't grade your own coin and differentiate between bad and good coins you have no business buying them. At least that's what I've learned here over and over again. "Good" collectors don't need PCGS, NGC, CAC, ANACS, etc. Since when is a PCGS RD/RB/BN label the definitive answer? Collectors buy coins, not plastic nor labels. They don't need PCGS to tell them what to buy. It was so before 1986 and should always remain so. It's just an opinion. Stewart, Naftzger, and others would have built their copper collections with or without PCGS based on their own expertise and desires. It should matter squat to them whether there is a RED grade guarantee or not. They are all big boys and know the stakes.
roadrunner >>
This is true, but the collectors who they would sell the coins to may not be close to being the experts that they are, and if that guarantee becomes null and void the second ownership is transferred, then the average collector would pay less for the coin due to being scared. For this reason, this change impacts ALL copper collectors, including the biggest names. There is still time to change this or at least eliminate the "sale of " part of the policy, which makes no sense whatsoever.
Who is John Galt?
<< <i>
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head".
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head". >>
Mike, whether you agree with the other Mike's points or not, your reply seems uncalled for and extremely rude. I think you also badly mischaracterized his attitude.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You have to be rather naive not to realize this would eventually happen. >>
Naive to believe that PCGS would stand behind its written guarantee? Really?
What's next? WIll PCGS throw its hands up and no longer guarantee puttied gold, doctored silver, milkspotted SAEs, or authenticity?
Why should we take PCGS's words for a grade, if they can't keep their word in a written guarantee?
What value is a TPG if they can't keep their word? >>
My bad I was directing my comment to those folks who live in the real world, not those who reside in a world that entirely revolves around them and only they know the great truths of the universe and believe everything that comes out of their own mouth.
Once again my sincerest apologies for offending your sensibilities. You know if in your universe they switched your IQ with your body temp you would subsequently known in your world as "Ted Williams Head". >>
Mike, whether you agree with the other Mike's points or not, your reply seems uncalled for and extremely rude. I think you also badly mischaracterized his attitude. >>
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I'd like to know how Andy at AngelDees feels about this one? If I do buy any PCGS copper in the future, I will be much more selective in this process. Most definately sight seen!!! So has the value in coins such as this one that I used to own increased or decreased?
Edited to add: How are cosigners feeling right now about their copper in the FUN Show? >>
Wow. The rattler "myth" lives. That's a sure 66 upgrade. Gold sticker for that one!
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
I even had a thread right here in which I expressed concern that coin collectors all over the world are storing red copper coins improperly and the causal factors involved.
Unfortunately, Don Willis didn't say that in his email. Instead, he said that the problem is humidity in Florida and Hawaii.
If humidity is really the problem then there is a much simpler solution: Put a desiccant inside the slab, near the coin, and charge a bit more to slab red copper to cover the additional cost.
This deal sounds better than it actually is.I've been involved in a number of these through the years and don't think I've received even $100 in value from the whole litter of 'em.
How does $1.50 per affected coin sound to you? Of course,the class has to actually win before you get a red cent (no pun intended) so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I probably missed a point does this mean that the guarantee only applies if the coin in the PCGS slab designated R is in the hand of the original owner. A coin slabbed in 2009 by dealer A and sold to dealer B and then to collector1 is not covered (unless dealer A can be identified and the coin sold to him/her.?.
<< <i>Copper turns green. Give it time. >>
And silver turns black. Except not always.
Lance.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
Ira
<< <i>If humidity is really the problem then there is a much simpler solution: Put a desiccant inside the slab, near the coin, and charge a bit more to slab red copper to cover the additional cost. >>
Wouldn't work. Desiccant (eg., silica gel) becomes saturated over time. It can be recharged by heating in the oven for a few hours. Not a good idea for a slab!
I can understand PCGS's change of policy. It was a mistake to guarantee red copper in the first place. They were really putting their financial health on the line with such a guarantee. Copper is a reactive metal. It oxidizes over time, more quickly in humid climates. IMO, 99% of red copper over 100 years old has been messed with.
I like your thinking. Something different needs to be done.
Of course the problem with the more-than-one-year guarantee you propose is that collectors whose coins turn in less than a year will simply wait until a year has elapsed and allege the trouble just arose. But I agree with your sentiment.
Since Don's announcement I have ceased buying any copper and I am normally rabid about PCGS-only upgrades to my early Lincoln set. I will probably abandon any further purchases or trades if this new policy is implemented and persists.
Lance.
<< <i>Don Willis, in his announcement, stated that color change in copper coins is due to humidity, especially in climates like Florida or Hawaii.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
Ira >>
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
1. Just about all plastics offgas over time. the materials that the slabs and gaskets are made of need to be carefully controlled. Gaskets being softer means they are more likely t be unstable. vacuum packing would INCREASE the level of offgasing and thus could increase toning rather than decrease it. Sealing nitrogen in would help more but still would not prevent the plastics from offgasing (see temperature discussion below).
2. Sealing in nitrogen adds an entire new dimension to the business and would likely increase the cost. Since nitrogen is a suffocation hazard, the use of nitrogen in the sealing process would significantly increase the difficulty. Laws would require a lot of safety programs be implemented. Increasing the difficulty increases the error rate....many downstream implications. However, successful sealing of the coins in a pure nitrogen atmosphere should indeed keep them red. The easiest way to do this would be in a spherical metal case, but that would make them harder to look at.
3. I'm not convinced that humidity is the real problem. You need to know what the chemical reaction involved is. For example with Silver is is usuallly silfidation so controlling sulfur for silver is much more important. Sulfur also reacts strongly with copper. Chlorides are common in plastics and bad for just about all metals.
4. Sealing a slab makes it temperature sensitive. If there is significant volume of gas in it then leaving it in the car in the summer would cause the inside to pressurize, probably cracking the slab and releasing the inerting gas. Temperature also causes in increase in offgassing from plastics.
That's all that comes to mind now but as a nuclear mechanical systems engineer with experience in chemistry and metallurgy, I'm sure I'll come up with more as time goes on. --Jerry
<< <i>
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins.
One thing that may have contributed to this change in policy is the toning of the 2009 special copper (95%) cents. The mint included a note with them that Toning is natural and you should expect it....as a seller of these I'm finding a lot of them toning per the mint predictions. PCGS can do nothing about this. What would you do?
-Jerry
designset
Treasury Seals Type Set
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>I can't wait to see what Mr. Blay has to say.
Ya, I also mentioned that in another thread. I wonder if he has been writing it all night. Hopefully not in all caps. Actually he has earned the right to type in all caps on this one
Maybe Our Eminency will film another interview with Stewert on this issue instead and they could charge a pay-per-view on the Coin Facts Network.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Don Willis, in his announcement, stated that color change in copper coins is due to humidity, especially in climates like Florida or Hawaii.
I live in Rochester, NY, not exactly a dry desert climate, and I have kept full red copper/bronze coins in my safe deposit boxes that I have owned for over 30 years with no perceptible change in red color. Now they are all in Intercept Shield boxes, but not for 23 years before that.
The real issue is "doctored" coins and the color will change within a year if done by a real expert and within months or weeks if done by an amateur. I've not seen ANY artificially colored or "lightened" coin hold the color for more than a year. Don Willis has had personal experience with this issue on a coin he bought for inventory prior to being tapped for presidency of PCGS.
A better solution should have been formulated instead of penalizing ALL collectors of Red or RB coins in PCGS slabs. PCGS should put a time limitation as to when coin was first slabbed and NOT when it was subsequently sold. If allowed to stand, this policy change will greatly diminish the value of PCGS graded coins in the marketplace in my opinion. PCGS knows by their database when the coin was slabbed. If it's been over a year it should have the guarantee. There are virtually no worries with most coins in the 40's, 50's or later except for the super valuable doubled dies produced in these time periods.
I also believe the unstable copper coated zinc cents will change no matter what. Just eliminate the guarantee on these. This decision must be revised if PCGS is to maintain its leading position as the leading grading company.
Ira >>
This proposed solution is completely unworkable in the marketplace. No collector would purchase a PCGS coin until they called to find out when it was slabbed - and even if they did and it turned, as previously stated, they'd just hold it for a year and then submit it for review
<< <i>
<< <i>
Bingo!! Thanks for getting this thread back on track and on point Ira. This policy change is a total knee-jerk reaction to the unsually high '08 payout coupled with the high '09 numbers. Basicly pcgs beleives the sky is falling and thay have decided to build a bomb shelter to cover themselves from a few drops of rain. And its been interesting to read the responses of many posters that are not really copper guys, I wonder what your posts will be like when pcgs changes the guarantee on silver or gold coins.
One thing that may have contributed to this change in policy is the toning of the 2009 special copper (95%) cents. The mint included a note with them that Toning is natural and you should expect it....as a seller of these I'm finding a lot of them toning per the mint predictions. PCGS can do nothing about this. What would you do?
-Jerry >>
We have no way of knowing if the new '09 cent was a factor and can only assume not as it was'nt outlined in the email as a reason for the change. But if that was a major consideration I can see where pgcs; or any tpg; would want to protect themselves against this one year change. But the concerns of a one year coin is not the real issue here, what should have been done by pcgs is to create a grandfather clause. As Ira pointed out pcgs has the database and it would not be a problem to grandfather in coins slabbed prior to the change date. Even as little as a five year phase-out of the guarantee would allow those collectors that wished to a chance to liquidate their pcgs holdered. But with this harsh and short notice cutoff collectors could be left holding the bag.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The strike, who cares!
Leo
Edited now before I do my new search, I'll just say that it did work, thank you!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
You're welcome.
<< <i> I can understand PCGS's change of policy. It was a mistake to guarantee red copper in the first place. They were really putting their financial health on the line with such a guarantee. >>
But they DID do it- and that's the point. Whether they should or shouldn't have is irrelevant. A lifetime guarantee on copper is just what it says. It's for the lifetime of the coin, NOT just the owner. High-grade copper collectors have used PCGS almost exclusively and have paid extra over the years for the privilege of sleeping better at night. Now, unless they change the "you can't sell the coin" part of their new policy, the lifetime guarantee is instantly gone without a trace.
I also must comment on some non-copper collectors who are chiming in how the time for this was coming, even warranted. To those collectors I say this: watch out what you're so gleeful about because if they can take one guarantee away, they can take away any of them- maybe even on what YOU collect. We must stop this before it goes any further.
PCGS can modify their copper guarantee to the effect that if the coin goes bad with a specific period (say a year of submission), they will track down the guilty party, and said invidivual will be on the hook to the damaged party, or else face civil, and possibly criminal prosecution. If someone knowingly tries to cover up a defect in an auto and sells it as if the problem didn't exist, he can be prosecuted civilly and criminally for doing so. I don't see why this same concept would not apply to doctoring a copper to get it in a holder with a RD designation.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Another alternative is to go after the people behind the submission of doctored copper. PCGS knows who submits each coin, and when it is submitted. If a copper goes bad within a specific amount of time, PCGS could contact the submitter and ask some "pointed questions." Couple this with the realization that numismatics is a small village; the who's who all know one another. Either a submitter is the guilty party, or will "fess up" re the coin doctor who 'suggested' he submit this coin.
PCGS can modify their copper guarantee to the effect that if the coin goes bad with a specific period (say a year of submission), they will track down the guilty party, and said invidivual will be on the hook to the damaged party, or else face civil, and possibly criminal prosecution. If someone knowingly tries to cover up a defect in an auto and sells it as if the problem didn't exist, he can be prosecuted civilly and criminally for doing so. I don't see why this same concept would not apply to doctoring a copper to get it in a holder with a RD designation. >>
This is a terrible idea. Example: I'm a small time collector. I sell my 1865 2c full red copper to someone on eBay. I've owned the coin for 10 yrs. The eBay moron is actually some guy in the woods of Vermont who buries the slab in his backyard under the maple tree. He digs it up 9 months later, washes the slab off and is shocked that it's now brown. PCGS is going to come after ME??? Or do they eventually investigate the current owner to discover his storage methods? All this investigation will cost them more than just having the guarantee to begin with.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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I understand the need to make changes concerning RD/RB/BN copper beginning next year.
However, will the Set Registry rules remain the same? Specifically, I am concerned with the weighted values of RD and RB coins in many sets. It would seem irresponsible to me to reward collectors with bonus points for risking -- in some cases -- tens of thousands of dollars or more to purchase a RD coin for their set. You would essentially be saying, "We won't guarantee this RD coin, but if you are crazy enough to take a chance on it, we'll give you a bonus!"
IMO, if the guarantee goes away, so should the RD/RB/BN designations on newly slabbed coins and the weighted bonuses in the set registry. Let the marketplace determine the value of a piece of copper, pre-2010 slabs too.
commoncents123, JrGMan2004, Coll3ctor (2), Dabigkahuna, BAJJERFAN, Boom, GRANDAM, newsman, cohodk, kklambo, seateddime, ajia, mirabela, Weather11am, keepdachange, gsa1fan, cone10
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<< <i>
<< <i>I can't wait to see what Mr. Blay has to say.
Ya, I also mentioned that in another thread. I wonder if he has been writing it all night. Hopefully not in all caps. Actually he has earned the right to type in all caps on this one
Maybe Our Eminency will film another interview with Stewert on this issue instead and they could charge a pay-per-view on the Coin Facts Network.
Stewart made the post below to a recent thread on the Registry Set forum here:
<< <i>I have no problem with the new PCGS policy regarding copper coins. I also believe it will be good for the hobby and collectors in the long run.
I can't think of any of my copper coins which deteriorated while in my bank vaults. I have never had a negative effect from any of the PCGS holders since the 1988 rattler holders.
Lastly I have been assured by PCGS that if I choose to regrade any of my coins in the holder the PCGS guarantee is still valid. If I choose to crack out a coin for resubmission I will forfeit my guarantee.
Stewart Blay >>