Wooden storage case??? Safe??
Bottomsup
Posts: 65
I have been looking at a few different storage boxes for storing my coins. I have found one seller that sells Cherry wood boxes which have inserts drilled into the bases. The coin is first placed in an airtight case and then "pressure" fitted into the hole.
Are there hazzards to storing coins like this? As I mentioned, the ones I am looking at are Cherry. Is there a better wood for this?
Thanks
Bottomsup
Are there hazzards to storing coins like this? As I mentioned, the ones I am looking at are Cherry. Is there a better wood for this?
Thanks
Bottomsup
0
Comments
What you are describing sounds like it would be fine also.
Do you have a pic available of the case?
Thanks for your help
Bottomsup
<< <i>This is the seller's pic from ebay. They come in a lot of different sizes etc.
Thanks for your help
Bottomsup >>
That's nice!!!
Hi there,
I believe oak is perhaps the most acidic of all woods. From one of the old wood posts I started: "PS - Despite recent posts to the contrary, oak is indeed the most acidic of woods and does in fact outgas. "The most acidic hardwoods include oak, beech, birch and ash. Oak is the most acidic. With a pH of 3.7 to 4.9, depending on the source (Miles, Stamm), it is capable of liberating up to five percent of its weight in acetic acid (Erhardt)." Brazillian Mahogany, as apparently used by Mr. Nichols (a seller at the time of wooden display boxes) , is apparently properly called Honduras Mahogany and IS NOT true African Mahogany and does not share the same "stability" as the African source above - "other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield)". I have no idea what wood Mr. Nichols uses other than what he states on his website. As stated above about Mahogany though, regardless of seasoning or kiln drying "most of the acid, however, remains in the wood." I have no issue with Mr. Nichols fine and attractive cases, this is not an attack on his cases nor do I wish to engage in any further discussions about his work as I do not even know him.
The mention of cherry - the PCGS boxes were cherry "finish" - who knows what that was composed of. No wood is really suitable for storing coins, let alone the adhesives and felt and all. Bad business. Read the old threads - read what I compiled and what Mr. Spud, Susan Maltby, Judy Greenfield and Weimar W. White had to say. Nearly 80% of the room eventually agreed they could be problematic after a little back and forth.
I just ran acros this in a quick search of the old wood threads:
2manycoins2fewfunds - <<Let me warn everyone that I had a PCGS 30 coin mahogany box full of silver coins including a 1995-w ASE.
After resting closed at room temp for 3-5 years there was definate toning of multiple coins including the 1995-W ASE.
A light golden toning.................
I wouldn't store any blast white silver coins in a wooden box again............ >>
Best,
Eric
I appreciate your comments. Back in 2005 or 2005 when I and Mr. Spud started this anti-wood campaign many members thought I had gone off the rails. Careful reading and research has only supported my claims. If you care to, look back in archived messages for a huge amount of data about storing coins in wood. In fact - here is a link:
"...it is quite true that wood releases acidic vapors as it ages - this is called "outgassing" and oak is the worst offender in this respect. I will not hazard a guess what cherrywood or cherry finish/varnish will do. This usually comes up in framing valuable works of art in wood frames. Countless works of art and prints have been damaged from outgassing. Unless this issue has been addressed or resolved and we don't know it, my solution (C) for the PCGS Storage Box is to liberally coat the inside surfaces of the storage boxes with an acrylic "gesso" (not true gesso which is slaked plaster of Paris) - the CaCo2 in acrylic emulsion will act as a neutralizing buffer. It could be black and serve it's purpose under the velvet material (compositon?). These gasses damage paper and fabric; I wonder what the effect on the various coin metals will be, let alone the delicate surfaces of a proof copper coin. As I read that PCGS slabs are not hermetically sealed I will never know. I would not put my coins in anything made of wood. People talk about slabbed coins toning "all by themselves" (especially in NGC holders I think I read) - if this is happening on its own from "regular" exposure or storage why expedite the process by storing coins in a concentrated organic acidic environment?"
"from the Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver's Judy Greenfield, Conservator of Objects - "Building a Better Case"
"True African mahogany is reported to be one of the least corrosive woods, but it's expensive and difficult to procure, and other mahoganies sold as substitutes are corrosive" (Hatchfield). Additionally, mahogany is resistant to termite attack. There is disagreement over the benefits of seasoned wood. Kiln-drying (seasoning) wood helps break down and drive off some inherent acids, though it may depress the wood's RH-buffering ability (Miles). But Werner cites the Department of Industry's statement that "[seasoning] wood...accelerates the production of free acetic acid and formic acid. Most of the acid, however, remains in the wood."
So, even if you are lucky and your cabinet is actually made out of true African Mahogany it is still only a lesser evil. While Mahogany is much more stable than red oak, particularly dimensionally which I imagine would play a role in cabinet making, none of this this alters the fact that wood is factually not the best choice of material in which to store coins. I continue to quote from Art Conservation Center at the University of Denver, and this information is specifically in regard to display/storage cases - not so terribly removed from coin storage. And remember, display cases in museums are often temporary and yet these matters are considered. Many of the displayed items cited in the article were metal
"...Although some woods are worse than others, all emit a variety of acids, aldehydes and other lignocellulosic degradation products." (Miles). wood emits mostly acetic acid; formic acid is produced at 1/10th the amount of acetic acid(Blackshaw). Moisture hydrolyzes acetyl groups in the hemicellulose (a form of cellulose, the "building block" of wood) to produce acetic acid. Elevated temperatures appear to foster acetic acid production (Werner)." I don't know what to make of the claims about sanded mahogany - it is also agreed among conservators that all woods must have a barrier between the wood and the display case interior. "No wood can ever be completely sealed to stop emission of organic compounds, though sealants can impede emission." At least one case I saw made by Mr. Nichols appears to have the coins "exposed" to the inside finish, which IMHO should not be inside the case at all. You don't need physical contact for outgassing problems, and we know PCGS slabs are not "sealed" and plastic is gas permeable anyway. Also, the PCGS boxes are "cherry wood finish and are lined with black felt" - I don't have any idea what wood is used, what adhesives, what finish (oil /Varathane?) or what fabric. To me, once closed, the environment in a wood box is concentrated - and the wood just sits there outgassing with the adhesives and finish, waiting to absorb large qualtities of water...now if the box is in a safe.....
Someone mentioned Varathane - "Even after 18 months' drying time, oleoresinous (oil) paints corroded lead in an experiment cited by Miles. As oil products dry, they undergo oxidative degradation which yields volatile organic acids, aldehydes and carbon dioxide (Miles). Oleo-resinous products include oil-modified paints and varnishes, one-component polyurethane varnishes (e.g., Varathane), alkyd paints, epoxy ester paints, aluminum paints, silicone paints and most varnishes (Miles)."
The information just goes on and on...and on - ESPECIALLY about the harmful glues and adhesives that might be used in construction (perhaps more important than the wood and as important as the finish), the fabrics - fabric should not be used where humidity is not controlled (someone mentioned a tarnish retardant cloth - these can be bad - as can certain dyed felts etc.!)...all can be injurious, and usually are unless care is taken. All I am saying is that wood in not an ideal choice, or even second choice for long term coin storage. Yes, this data is about storage/display cases in museums, but most of the problems above seem are mainly influenced by humidity and temperature - variables found in every deposit box and safe. And those are concentrated environments, more than the cases in the above discussion..."
"About paper from the Library of Congress/Preservation Information:
"The primary source of acid in modern paper is the alum-rosin sizing agent introduced in the manufacturing process. Size is added so that writing and printing inks do not feather. In the presence of moisture, the alum in the sizing agent generates sulfuric acid."
"Fibers made of cellulose chains degrade when exposed to an acidic environment in the presence of moisture. In this acid hydrolysis reaction, cellulose chains are repeatedly split into smaller fragments so long as the source of acid remains in paper. This acid hydrolysis reaction produces more acid in the process, and the degradation accelerates in a downward spiral."
"A new discovery made in the research laboratories of the Library of Congress shows that, as it ages, cellulose itself generates several acids, such as formic, acetic, lactic, and oxalic acids."
"Measurable quantities of these acids were observed to form within weeks of the manufacture of paper while stored under ambient conditions. This research also shows that these acids continue to accumulate within paper as they attach themselves to paper through strong intermolecular bonds. This explains why acid-free (pH neutral) papers also become increasingly acidic as they age."
Both forms, Hydrogen sulfide and sulfuric acid are pretty nasty corrosives as far as I can tell. I am just trying to protect my coins and share what I am learning..."
"Thanks to MacCrimmon : "Susan Maltby has written to this issue many times in Coin World.
She is a conservationist out of Toronto, I believe. The bottom line is, wood containers are not the best environment for storage of 'metal objects'."
"... agree - they, the slabs, are probably the just about the best thing going. But, as we know that slabs are not "airtight" and are gas permeable, I do not think I will choose to store mine in a known concentrated acidic environment. Especially if it hasn't even been tested yet, as seems to be the case (no pun there). Even if the potential is deemed "possible but unlikely" - what is there on the other side of the coin (sorry) that would induce me to chance my coins? Because the boxes are pretty? What am I missing?"
This is just a small sample of the data Mr. Spud and I posted years ago. There is a LOT MORE in the old threads. And, finally, member Ellewood did in fact get a full refund after demanding a clear statement about the safety of the boxes.
Best wishes,
Eric
PS - If memory serves, Ellewood collected superb Lincoln 1c (or maybe it was V5c) - but I saw this as well while looking around:
bosox: "...Last year around this time I bought one of the wooden PCGS slab boxes. After all the talk about whether they would damage a coin, I put it away with only two new cents (taken from circulation) lying on the felt in the bottom, raw, oriented heads up. The cents looked perfect and 100% red when they went in a year ago. Here they are now. Obviously each had a partial print on them that showed up. What worries me is that both toned a little bit. Maybe not the perfect test, but I just cannot bring myself to put my good copper in this box..."
And here is just one link of many with much data; Mr. Spuds posts are even larger should you care to look for them:
Text
I am glad I don't store my coins in an oak box
Does the wood effect a coin that is stored in a container and
does not have direct contact with the wood any more than the
same coin stored in say a bank box?
storing a coin in a bank box made to preserve paper is a bad idea as the RH is too high. A slabbed coin can tone in a concectrated small storage container like a wood box. A wood box in a safe deposit box is doubly bad I'd say. Did I answer your question?
Best wishes,
Eric
I guess you did.
I also see why so many coins end up taking a turn in the dipping bottle.
A 200 year old coin more than likely had no chance but to be stored
under less than ideal conditions at some point in its life. It is only recently
that we have gone the desiccant route. Heck, only 40 years ago people were still
putting a half eaten apple core in their humidor's to humidify their cigars. I wonder what
fanatic coin collectors did with their collections say......150 years ago?
Before electricity?
I wonder what all that candle wax residue did when they looked at their coins on
anything but a sunny afternoon.
Before plastic coin cases how the heck did they move a coin from one house to another?
Did they wrap them in a handkerchief? When was the last time the handkerchief was washed?
What did they wash it with? Did they wash their hands? No municipal water supplies back then
to just turn on the tap to wash their hands. I won't even talk about their fingernail hygiene.....
Bottom line - IMO we all obsess over our coins a little too much and put too much emphasis
on things.
Preserve BUT enjoy your coins.
PS - I am not trying to diminish the amount of time put in to research the topic in the OP.
Thanks for all your info and help.
I agree on the whole. I just feel I am responsible for the care of a coin when it comes to me - what happened before that no one can control or even know obviously. I just believe it is my job to keep my coins as I receive them. When the notion of the wood boxes came out I was mortified as there was and is strong potential from all I and Mr. Spud had posted for this type of storage method to futher alter the coin "today" and I don't think that is good IMHO. Remember Ellewood and his Proof 1c - he demanded a guarantee from PCGS that wood storage was safe for his sets and they gave him a full refund for his engraved boxes instead after some time I believe. At the time, about 5 years ago, I wondered and asked if the notion of PVC flips damaging coins was met initially with such disbelief, resistance and scorn. Look how often one seens once lovely Peace 1$ or whatever damaged by PVC when this could have been prevented by using the newer flips. I was and am just trying to bring this strong potential to the fore and save some coins from looking very different than when one put them away - slabbed or raw as we know the slabs are not airtight and are indeed gas permeable - something shown in another series of wonderful threads by a member I can't recall which showed how easy it is to tone coins in slabs of several TPG's. In a small concentrated organic acidic environment, like a wood box in a deposit box which was mentioned in the old threads, it might well be disasterous for delicate Proof copper or other coins over time. I appreciate the kind words J
Best wishes,
Eric
Best wishes,
Eric
yes indeed I am and I like many of them. I just don't want someone, or me
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i>
2manycoins2fewfunds - <<Let me warn everyone that I had a PCGS 30 coin mahogany box full of silver coins including a 1995-w ASE.
After resting closed at room temp for 3-5 years there was definate toning of multiple coins including the 1995-W ASE.
A light golden toning.................
I wouldn't store any blast white silver coins in a wooden box again............ >>
Best,
Eric >>
Eric,
How do you know that the coins would not have toned stored if not stored in the wooden box. I just got a 2007 PR70DCAM buffalo in. I had sold the buffalo to the guy 2+ years ago when they were issued. When I got it back it was in an intercept shield. I took it out and noticed significant toning on the buffalo--the most I had ever seen on this .9999 gold coin. I called him and asked how he had stored it and he said it had been in the intercept shield since the day he received it from me 2+ years ago. This would seem to indicate that whatever toned the Golf Buffalo came from INSIDE the intercept shield, not outside. --Jerry
For me, I don't have to. I hope I know enough abt the potential. No one has ever provided any reason - any benefit - from storing in wood over anodized aluminum. I have asked. Read the old posts Mr. Spud and I made here. And the opinions of many others. As for the Intercept Shield question - CALLING MR. SPUD!!! I can not speak to toned .9999 gold.
Best wishes,
Eric
I just saw this. Thank you sincerely for your support on this issue.
Best wishes,
Eric