Who bears responsibility for wrongly attributed slabs

EagleEye · December 4, 2009 12:25AM

Say a grading service messes up and calls a MS coin a Proof. That coin is then put in an auction and the auction company doesn't question the obvious error and offers it as a Proof. The buyer then assumes it is a Proof and pays accordingly. The price of a Proof may be many multiples of the MS format of the same date.

Who has the responsibility to call it what it is?

A case in point

I didn't have the luxury of seeing this coin in person, but I see absolutely no Proof diagnostics based on the image. It has obviously rounded inner rims with lots of handling marks.

SeaEagleCoins · December 4, 2009 12:45AM

I do not think I can speak to whether or not the coin is a Proof... I would certainly defer to your knowledge and experience with that, Rick.

As to "who is responsible?" ... ultimately... the TPG... but first I think that, since it has gone this far, the seller/auction house should accept a return for all monies paid... and then they should deal with the TPG along with the consignor...

Now, if the buyer wishes to assume the responsibility of dealing with the TPG directly, I guess they could... I, for one, would put that responsibility back on the auction house... their professional position places them as the "responsible" 1st party... the consignor and the buyer should not need to doubt the knowledge, experience and integrity of the auction house.

adamlaneus · December 4, 2009 12:47AM

I see a big 'ol "wire rim" all around the reverse. Is that typical of a business strike of this year?

BillJones · December 4, 2009 12:53AM

That coin is not sharp enough to be a Proof. Look at the eagle's tail. I dare say the luster is not right either, but one would need to see the coin in person to confirm that.

NGC should be repsonsible for the mistake given that one can drive a 10 wheeler between the price of a Mint State and a Proof Flying Eagle.

doh · December 4, 2009 12:56AM

As far as who bears responsibility, from my understanding, it's the person who originally submitted the coin. If that person notices the label mistake, they need to alert the TPG. If the coin goes on to sell for far more than it should have based on the holder, the new owner is out of luck. The TPG will simply say the label is a typo and change the label if the new owner re-submits the coin. The new owner will NOT be compensated for the price difference.

relicsncoins · December 4, 2009 12:59AM

<< As far as who bears responsibility, from my understanding, it's the person who originally submitted the coin. If that person notices the label mistake, they need to alert the TPG. If the coin goes on to sell for far more than it should have based on the holder, the new owner is out of luck. The TPG will simply say the label is a typo and change the label if the new owner re-submits the coin. The new owner will NOT be compensated for the price difference. >>

Yep, and that's such a cop out if you ask me.

adamlaneus · December 4, 2009 1:02AM

Imagine the poor sod who buys this coin, blissfully unaware of the issue and believing it to be a proof.

Then they crack it out for a regrade or crossover.

And they get the Surprise then.

I bet it's happened.

Amigo · December 4, 2009 1:13AM

I agree, NGC will treat it as a typo with no responsibility.
Nor do I see it as the Auction's responsibility since it's TPG'd. It is their responsibility if they have knowledge that a coin is not as represented. It's also the moral responsiblity of other parties to notify the Auction House if the coin isn't as represented.

However, in the end it is the Seller's responsibility 100% to make good on a refund, regardless of passage of time. Should be treated the same as a counterfeit coin IMHO in so much as 100% refund 100% of the time. The Auction House has a responsiblity to assist the Buyer in obtaining that refund as well.

EagleEye · December 4, 2009 1:20AM

I've seen others, notably 1864 No L Indian cents (more than one) that were placed in auctions that were definitely not Proof. There is a 5X to 10X difference. When I see a wrongly attributed coin in lot viewing, I notify the highest-ranking person there at the time about the discrepancy. They usually take it out of the sale, or make a verbal announcement at the podium (and cancel all mail/Internet bids). That is what I believe should be done. The auction company, or any seller, should act in the best interests of the buyers since they are the ones paying their fees.

Passing along a mistake just because "it's in the holder" is wrong.

BTW, the 1864 No L in question was removed from the sale, but showed up in the next auction and the next auction after that. (Not Heritage BTW)

SeaEagleCoins · December 4, 2009 1:25AM

IMHO --- if any TPG were to simply treat this as a typo and offer no compensation... then their credibilty, in my eyes, would be worth less than excrement.

I do believe also, that a "World-Class" auction house also has the responsibilty of ensuring the integrity of all consignments that they choose to accept... especially with the lingering threat of counterfeit slabs.

Let's just say that this "label error" occured sometime in the past... and then the owner of the coin, not realizing the error and trusting in the judgement of the reputable TPG, passes away... and then the heirs consign the coin to the Auction House. I would hope that the auction house staff have enough knowledge to determine that the coin is what is is labeled to be... and if it is not, then they should have the situation rectified BEFORE offering it in auction.

Again... I think this ultimately becomes the TPG's responsility... and any reputable TPG would and should honor their guarantees... and make any "losing" party to this error "whole"...

fc · December 4, 2009 1:35AM

according to past posts that I have read where users said the TPG should eat it...
they got blasted for saying it.

the tpg will do nothing for the buyer except reslab it correctly.

i have no idea what the auction house would do.

partagas · December 4, 2009 1:35AM

This happens sometimes in seated quarters. They sometimes label the more valuable business strikes with very low mintages as less valuable proof strikes.

In those the cases the buyer is a winner and the seller loses out.

BillJones · December 4, 2009 1:38AM

<< I agree, NGC will treat it as a typo with no responsibility.
Nor do I see it as the Auction's responsibility since it's TPG'd. It is their responsibility if they have knowledge that a coin is not as represented. It's also the moral responsiblity of other parties to notify the Auction House if the coin isn't as represented.

However, in the end it is the Seller's responsibility 100% to make good on a refund, regardless of passage of time. Should be treated the same as a counterfeit coin IMHO in so much as 100% refund 100% of the time. The Auction House has a responsiblity to assist the Buyer in obtaining that refund as well. >>

Who says it's typo? NGC may have just dropped the ball. In that case they should be responsible.

doh · December 4, 2009 1:40AM

<< Who says it's typo? NGC may have just dropped the ball. In that case they should be responsible. >>

True, but is there any way to prove that the TPG dropped the ball?? They'll always claim it was a typo and there is really no way to prove otherwise.

notwilight · December 4, 2009 1:41AM

PCGS requires authorized dealers to return mistakes for corrections. No compensation is involved.

This is totally different than the grade guarantee and I don't know if NGC has a similar requirement or not.

Is this what you guys are confusing when you say that the grade guarantee is not in effect?

--Jerry

SeaEagleCoins · December 4, 2009 1:49AM

<< according to past posts that I have read where users said the TPG should eat it...
they got blasted for saying it.

the tpg will do nothing for the buyer except reslab it correctly.

i have no idea what the auction house would do. >>

fc ... if what you are sharing is true... that the TPG would assume no responsiblity in this... that puts a very big hole in the entire concept of TPG services...

There have been occasions, here on this forum, when a "newbie" has shown up asking for advice on some coins that they inherited. Many folks, perhaps wisely, advised them to submit the coins to a TPG for verification of authenticity and to determine value based on grade. I would think that such a person should be able to do so and to expect the coins to be, at the very least, properly attributed.

I think it is more than enough for a submitter to have to deal with "floating" standards... aka the subjective nature of grading... but if we also need to accept that the coin might be mis-attributed... and that we, the submitters have to "just accept that"... and "we better learn how to grade, attribute and authenticate ourselves" .... then what is the bloody need for the TPG? Seriously?

dsessom · December 4, 2009 1:49AM

<< Who bears responsibility for wrongly attributed slabs? >>

THat d@mned Sasquatch...

sanitarium1inmate · December 4, 2009 2:21AM

I would say, Buyer Beware. Only because you must know what you are buying, if something looks wrong to you then don't buy it. Unless described as miss labeled by the seller. I too have received from NGC a mis-attributed coin. A business strike coin that is clearly missing detail on the relief due to some sort of polishing error being slabbed as a non error satin finish coin or should I say SMS on the label. If I choose to sell it I would make sure the interested parties knew it was not labeled correctly.

relicsncoins · December 4, 2009 2:34AM

A typo to me is MD66, as the S and D are close on the keyboard. MS, and PR are not close.

fc · December 4, 2009 2:40AM

<< A typo to me is MD66, as the S and D are close on the keyboard. MS, and PR are not close. >>

picture this situation. you have to enter 1000 coins a day and you use drop down boxes
to select the info. well you know how computers are with mice controlling that arrow. You
mistakenly select PR instead of MS because you made a motion with the mouse while
clicking right on the end of the border between them.

Since you are so busy you just miss it....

I cannot imagine them typing in this stuff manually. I could be wrong! It seems we have
seen this problem often enough were there must be a bug in the entering system. Perhaps
selecting a bullet for example instead of a drop down box would fix it.

would be neat if PCGS could chime in on how this happens in a technical manner instead
of just saying it was a entry mistake.

19Lyds · December 4, 2009 2:42AM

Without reading the enitre thread, I need to say that the grading company shoudl bear the responsibility or liability regarding misattributed coins.
Otherwise there would be a bazillion 1969-S DDO Coins in slabs!

End of Story.

Type2 · December 4, 2009 2:50AM

<< 

<< Who bears responsibility for wrongly attributed slabs? >>

THat d@mned Sasquatch... >>

We need the graders / PCGS, NGS or so on to put it on the slab so then the collectors that can't grade very well, Will buy the coin. But some times the graders get it wrong and that is when the big rip or a big loss comes it's all the same. A new collector will send it in and the coin comes back MS-65 a coin worth $40 doaller and then they sell it and someone that knows how to grade get's it regraded and it comes back Full steps and now it's a $5,000 coin. I dont like it. But you would think they would get it right the 1st time and for some one to say they are human, Yes they are but we pay Good $$$ for them to get it right the first time, Count on that. This is there expertise like the Bomb squad they dont get a 2nd chance. But that is just me.

airplanenut · December 4, 2009 2:51AM

I think the grading company should be responsible for it. It is possible that such a mistake could be costly the instant the grade posts. Suppose a buyer agrees to purchase a coin on condition that the grading company confirms it is proof (or mint state). The minute the grade is available, the sale is complete, but on false pretenses due to the mistake in designation.

As was mentioned, typos are relatively unimportant features, perhaps even the date or grade which can be easily confirmed with a quick look. Important designations that require an expert's knowledge cannot be considered typos if the grading guarantee is to have merit.

notwilight · December 4, 2009 3:13AM

<< I think the grading company should be responsible for it. It is possible that such a mistake could be costly the instant the grade posts. Suppose a buyer agrees to purchase a coin on condition that the grading company confirms it is proof (or mint state). The minute the grade is available, the sale is complete, but on false pretenses due to the mistake in designation. As was mentioned, typos are relatively unimportant features, perhaps even the date or grade which can be easily confirmed with a quick look. Important designations that require an expert's knowledge cannot be considered typos if the grading guarantee is to have merit. >>

Jeremy,
The dealer who grades a coin with PCGS has a responsibility to return errors for correction. If I send in 100 lincolns for grading and the highest grade ever is MS67 and they come back 1 67 and 99 MS69's do I conclude that I've just won the lottery or that PCGS meant to make the 99 as MS66 and accidently made them MS69. Only an unethical dealer would not return the 69s, not to mention losing their relationship with PCGS. --jerry

relicsncoins · December 4, 2009 3:17AM

<< 

<< I think the grading company should be responsible for it. It is possible that such a mistake could be costly the instant the grade posts. Suppose a buyer agrees to purchase a coin on condition that the grading company confirms it is proof (or mint state). The minute the grade is available, the sale is complete, but on false pretenses due to the mistake in designation. As was mentioned, typos are relatively unimportant features, perhaps even the date or grade which can be easily confirmed with a quick look. Important designations that require an expert's knowledge cannot be considered typos if the grading guarantee is to have merit. >>

Jeremy,
The dealer who grades a coin with PCGS has a responsibility to return errors for correction. If I send in 100 lincolns for grading and the highest grade ever is MS67 and they come back 1 67 and 99 MS69's do I conclude that I've just won the lottery or that PCGS meant to make the 99 as MS66 and accidently made them MS69. Only an unethical dealer would not return the 69s, not to mention losing their relationship with PCGS. --jerry >>

That may be true in some cases, but what if this FE has prooflike surfaces, and the original submitter believed it to be a proof, and marked proof on the submission form. They then get it back as a proof. Why would they have any reason to send it back?

fc · December 4, 2009 3:18AM

<< 

<< I think the grading company should be responsible for it. It is possible that such a mistake could be costly the instant the grade posts. Suppose a buyer agrees to purchase a coin on condition that the grading company confirms it is proof (or mint state). The minute the grade is available, the sale is complete, but on false pretenses due to the mistake in designation. As was mentioned, typos are relatively unimportant features, perhaps even the date or grade which can be easily confirmed with a quick look. Important designations that require an expert's knowledge cannot be considered typos if the grading guarantee is to have merit. >>

Jeremy,
The dealer who grades a coin with PCGS has a responsibility to return errors for correction. If I send in 100 lincolns for grading and the highest grade ever is MS67 and they come back 1 67 and 99 MS69's do I conclude that I've just won the lottery or that PCGS meant to make the 99 as MS66 and accidently made them MS69. Only an unethical dealer would not return the 69s, not to mention losing their relationship with PCGS. --jerry >>

this assumes the dealer knows just as much as PCGS and can tell when a mistake happens right?
i have a feeling that most dealers do not know as much as PCGS when it comes to proofs versus circ strikes
and depend on them to make the call for tougher situations.

obviously i agree with you if a child can tell what the mistake is with a glance.

ocon4008 · December 4, 2009 3:22AM

<,Who bears responsibility for wrongly attributed slabs?>>

Doesn't the buyer bear the ultimate responsibility; after all, it is his money on the line.

mrpotatoheadd · December 4, 2009 3:23AM

<< The dealer who grades a coin with PCGS has a responsibility to return errors for correction. >>

Maybe this is getting to be a chicken/egg sort of thing, but if the errors are obvious enough that a dealer should catch them upon receiving the coins back from the TPG, shouldn't the TPG catch them before sending them out?

Longacre · December 4, 2009 3:26AM

The submitter.

tahoe98 · December 4, 2009 3:37AM

.......i guess if you're going to make a purchase with big numerals you'll need to be VERY informed before pulling

the trigger. no matter who fudges the label. jmo

BigRick · December 4, 2009 3:43AM

TPG's would probably say "mechanical error" & you're sol.

jmcu12 · December 4, 2009 4:00AM

When the TPGs slab a coin does the grade and designation get updated systematically or manually?

When you or I are considering a coin sometimes we go to the TPG's website to verify information we see on the insert BUT if that information is wrong on both places how can this NOT be the fault and responsibility of the TPG to fix the error AND compensate those parties involved? Otherwise why should we ever depend upon their website for accurate information???!

jmcu12 · December 4, 2009 4:02AM

<< Otherwise why should we ever depend upon their website for accurate information???! >>

Further, why should we ever depend upon what the insert says? And I know....I know....buy the coin and not the holder, but still there has to be some accountability.

Who bears responsibility for wrongly attributed slabs

Comments

Leave a Comment