Like others have said, it is part of the learning process. If you are buying a raw coin anywhere then your ability to grade and detect things like altered surfaces and artificial color is critical. I just ran into a sixty something collector who was ripped off by an altered 1937-d three legged buffalo. (four hundered smackers) A very good job of removing the leg, but none of the other diagnostics of the three legged buffalo were there (like the moth-eaten hind leg and detatched small feather on the obverse). Another thing to remember when buying a raw coin if the price seems to be too good to be true then it probably is not as represented. buffnixx
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
They refund money to people that complain and usually have good feedback numbers. Most people don`t know they are buying problem coins. Glad things are working out for you.
Sort of difficult to see the 'altered surface' issue in the Gettysburg from that picture.
But the one above it? Scrubby-scrub. The red felt background is very familiar to me. A very high volume eBay seller with lots of cheap coins. That's how I stuffed many of the holes in my Dansco album with raw dreck. Although the quality of their items is often low, and the volume is very high...that's the way it is and I accept it. I've found this seller to be reasonable and fair when a problem occurs.
<< <i>I just started collecting some classic commemorative coins and I purchased four of them on ebay. I paid some extra money for the Gettysburg and Antietam commemoratives because I love their design. I also bought a Grant and Stone Mountain. I then decided to join the PCGS collector's club and I sent those four coins in to be slabbed. My results came back today:
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade 1 1 15294198 9229 1937 50C Antietam US Genuine (92 - Cleaned) 2 1 15294199 9305 1936 50C Gettysburg US Genuine (94 - Altered Surface) 3 1 15294200 9306 1922 50C Grant US Genuine (92 - Cleaned) 4 1 15294201 9378 1925 50C Stone Mountain US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
I am very disappointed and I have no idea what to do from here. I'm most upset about the Gettysburg and Antietam because they were $480 and $730 respectively. Both the sellers said nothing about the coin being cleaned/altered and even advertised them as MS 64/65, and even 65+. I did send an email to both sellers but realistically what can I do? Of course I already left them both positive feedback after I had received the coins. Obviously I don't have the coins back from PCGS and I didn't spend all that money to have them be cleaned/altered. Any suggestions would be appreciated. >>
You can't do anything. Raw coins on eBay are always a gamble; and some sellers are honest and some are not. Buy only certified coins until you know how to detect cleaning and altered coins yourself.
<< <i>Put them up for auction on ebay and hopefully you can get some of your money back. Of course you'll have to crack them out . >>
I do not agree with this practice whatsoever, unless the problems are clearly noted in the description.
Another thing you could (should) have done is posted the coins here for our opinions. Cleaned coins are easy to spot with a trained eye, and we could have told you before you wasted submission costs on them. >>
I would not note any issues with the coins. PCGS is just offering you an opinion. Plenty of coins have come back in body bags and been resubmitted multiple times until they make it into a holder. Take nice pictures and let the buyers decide on the price.
You could not take a picture of the Antietam that does not show the cleaning. I am glad the sellers are at least acting like they are going to refund your money.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I just received a reply from the seller that sold me the Gettysburg coin saying that he will refund my money. Very nice. So now all I need is for PCGS to send it back hopefully soon. >>
It sounds like this is going to work out for you on this. As far as the folks who don't understand the comment,
<< <i>4. I still like the look of the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them at all. >> >>
I understand how he feels. I had a car stolen about 30 years ago. The car was recovered but I didn't want the darn thing back. Not to sound overly dramatic but I felt violated and the car was always going to feel "dirty" to me. As far as the seller's go, if the seller of the Gettysburg is who I think it is, not only does he sell questionable coins but he doesn't always ship the buyer the same coin as pictured in the auction. I know from personal experience and I've sent several back to him for a full refund, but I will never buy anything from him again beacuse of the hassle.
The first coin I ever purchased was a raw counterfeit Trade Dollar. Of course I didn't know it was counterfeit. I still have that coin as a reminder of my mistake. I hate that coin, but it woke me up to being very selective of what I purchase. If it is in a slab, I'm more than likely to pick up the tab. Take care
I've not read all of the responses, but finding this board is the first step in doing the right thing to educate yourself for future purchases. Each of us have mounted this learning curve in some fashion.. unfortunately, yours seems particularly pricey. I'd keep these pieces around for a while and try to see what indicators PCGS saw that indicate cleaning... was it subtle? was it obvious? use this to learn more about the coins you plan on buying in the future.
Leo
BTW... if you have a coin club locally, or a reputable dealer, you might want to see if they can show you where you went wrong in these purchases.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
<< <i>I will be unpleasant and scathing in my remarks.
1. You really can't do anything. 2. The coin market is full of sharks. Don't buy raw coins from people you don't know, especially high valued ones. 3. In such situations, it is better to just buy the coins certified. >>
Bingo! Great advice for all novice collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sorry for your experience but it is a good education, Can be had at less cost though but it is worth it in the long run and it happens to everyone. While one can stick to PCGS and NGC with some level of uh...assurity...regarding major problems, there are AT and cleaned coins, low end, high end and so on for all the grades in all three top holders so it means very little to me. Actually, I grade coins I buy myself - the litttle insert means little to nothing to me. I buy what I like. Yewars ago a lot of people in here, many gone now, used to hate my Proof 1930's jeff 5c because of the "ugly coffe stains" which was actually true cello tone. Not always pretty but this one was. Follow your own star. Buy what you like withing parameters you set with a deliberate agenda and don't stray. It was said by crytpo and TomB and others in varying ways and I agree - to me it reduces down to the advice I give my painting students - OBSERVE! Look! See as many as you can. Pour over images, auction results, sites and more. Get a feel for the look of these. Know what you are looking for and don't stray form your criterion or budget. The wait is always worth it when looking for a few special coins. Buy something you are not comfortable and you'll never like it. Know what is abrasively cleaned, look up the posts here about AT and cleaning, original surfaces and so on. Buy cheap copper and experiment. Hardly any of this, or the coins themselvesunfortunately, are 100% anything, but with a good idea what things should look like you will be armed better than you are now and come out relatively unscathed with a nice bunch of "original" (to me that is a very grey term in most cases) coins you will enjoy. A learning experience that you caught is a good thing. Make the best of it - educate!
As an aside, I just had a 1941 PCGS Proof 65 Winged Liberty 10c shipped on approval to me. While it had the perfect toning pattern I like - all original and crusty dark periphery (what I call "flaky tone") right over the rims and really set it but not killing the mirrors and with that light milky film of originality over thick skin filling those flow lines and color to boot that can be really seen in downward raking light. This also is a tool I use to see the depth of skin over/embracing the flow lines which often show well on Proof Merc 10c. To me, it was undipped and others have the same opinion. The toning was gentle blues, greens etc. Light, but there amongts the browns/russet. Heavy tone overall save for milky mirrored centers. BUT, there was a tiny mark, I have to say gouge because of the displaced metal, right on the highest spot of Liberty's cheek and pretty visible to the naked eye once you knew where it was. There was a a little speckle tone of the cheeck and that did not help lessen the impact of the gouge. Otherwise a superb example. But, I knew I would never get over it the hit of the cheek. A Pr65? Yes indeed, technically, but low end despite the eye appeal which was strong. It had very nice appeal but could not sustain it with that hit. So, back it went. No restock fee either Of course, Pr 65 grade can be reached in any number of ways - great eye appeal and a few marks, or no marks and slightly below average eye appeal or a little washed out or whatever and so on. I am just sticking to my guns, my critria. Hope this was interesting and/or useful. Say, what is your reference library like? Do you get to see a lot of cons in hand at shows etc? Oh yes, doesn't Jim Turpin have nice Commems at Jetproofs more often original than not? The coins they have are usually top notch and they are a wonderful couple to deal with. Maybe you could look upon thier offerings just for ideas and appearances. My .02 cents. I'm very tired so pardon any typos
1) I have to completely agree with the sentiment that regardless of outcome you have to look at this as the beginning of your numismatic education. Honestly, you've lucked out in being able to return a couple of these coins. More often in cases like these you're stuck and sellers will have no sympathy for you.
2) Based on the image in this thread I don't see an obvious problem with your Gettysburg Commem. It could have easily gotten bagged for dip residue, evidence of cleaning/polishing, or something else I can't see in that picture, but even still may be worth a second try. In my experience NGC is a little more forgiving when it comes to such coins but their holder is still respected enough to add (or in your case retain) a little value. You may want to send it across the street.
3) If you do get stuck holding an obviously cleaned coin like your Antietam you may still want to send it to NGC because even in one of their net grade holders it'll be worth more than it was raw. It probably won't be worth nearly what you paid, but more that it is raw and honestly described.
"YOU SUCK!" Awarded by nankraut/renomedphys 6/13/13 - MadMarty dissents
<< <i>An update: the seller of the Grant commemorative has agreed to refund as well.
Here is the pictures of two out of the four coins in question. I know many of you may know exactly who sold them, but please keep in mind that so far all of the sellers have been kind and helpful.
Thanks again for all the feedback so far. >>
Regarding the 1936 coin....
It is so obvious from that picture that this coin has been cleaned and would never in a million years get graded at a TPG (especially PCGS) as an 'uncleaned coin".
I would suggest to you that before you spend hundreds of dollars on raw coins (either on Ebay or your local coin store) you educate yourself on this matter.
It's the very basics of coin collecting - to be able to distinguish a cleaned or 'heavily hairlined' coin from one that is not.
If you don't take this step, then I would respectively suggest changing hobbies because if these mistakes continue it's going to cost you a whole lot of money.
I will admit from the picture of the 1937 coin it is much more difficult to tell the condition of the coin's surfaces.
This coin actually looks extremely nice.
But therein lies your next big clue - Why is such a 'great looking' coin not in a PCGS slab?
Your 'coin radar' should tell you that you are taking a big chance buying this raw.
Yes, sometimes it turns out good, but more than not, it turns out ugly.
That's just the way it is on Ebay.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
It is obvious that the Antietam was cleaned with a rather harsh abrasive. The problems with the Gettysburg are less obvious from the photo, but I think that it has been polished. The Gettysburg coin comes bright and frosty, but I’ve never seen one with a P-L surface.
As a general bit of advice, Justin, you should look for examples of these coins that grade at least MS-64. The Gettysburg is seldom found in less than that grade, and the Anteitam is actually quite common in MS-65 and 66. Also the lower grade examples of these coins will not save you that much money. Look for a Gettysburg with virtually no marks on the faces and the shields.
Here are the two coins from my collection
My Gettysburg is a PCGS MS-64. This was probably dipped at some point.
My Antietam is an NGC MS-65. It has never been dipped.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I haven't read through this entire thread, but I imagine I'm not the first with this suggestion.
What you should do is put your money in your pocket and study. Study first tier slabbed coins, study raw coins. Determine what differences you see between the two. Ask a trusted friend/dealer for some assistance.
When you think you've figured it all out, keep your money in your pocket and take a summer course at ANA.
There are plenty of good raw coins on Ebay. The key is to know how to interperate photos and find sellers that have a return policy. Ebay is not the only place to find problem raw coins being sold as problem free. About every B/M store I've ever walked into has at least a couple of raw coins on display that mention no problem but would certainly bag if sent in.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
Tough lesson. I'm sorry. You're in good company. This has happened to most of us, early on. Kudos to the dealer returning your money! You should mention his name here, if you haven't already.
Sad to say, there are more tough lessons ahead. From trusting the cert of a 3rd world TPG to a crackout upgrade attempt. Each of us has a dozen stories to relate. Each of us is wiser and more knowledgeable, as a result.
Advice? Take the coins to a friendly dealer. He can tell you why the coins were "genuined" and whether it's worth resubmitting them because they're borderline. Inexpensive lessons.
And don't be bummed by paying tuition. There's lots more ahead. Lance.
Comments
That Antietam looks like it was cleaned with an SOS pad.
Any number of members here would have told you to run away from that one and don't look back.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
But the one above it? Scrubby-scrub.
The red felt background is very familiar to me. A very high volume eBay seller with lots of cheap coins. That's how I stuffed many of the holes in my Dansco album with raw dreck.
Although the quality of their items is often low, and the volume is very high...that's the way it is and I accept it. I've found this seller to be reasonable and fair when a problem occurs.
<< <i>I just started collecting some classic commemorative coins and I purchased four of them on ebay. I paid some extra money for the Gettysburg and Antietam commemoratives because I love their design. I also bought a Grant and Stone Mountain. I then decided to join the PCGS collector's club and I sent those four coins in to be slabbed. My results came back today:
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 15294198 9229 1937 50C Antietam US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
2 1 15294199 9305 1936 50C Gettysburg US Genuine (94 - Altered Surface)
3 1 15294200 9306 1922 50C Grant US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
4 1 15294201 9378 1925 50C Stone Mountain US Genuine (92 - Cleaned)
I am very disappointed and I have no idea what to do from here. I'm most upset about the Gettysburg and Antietam because they were $480 and $730 respectively. Both the sellers said nothing about the coin being cleaned/altered and even advertised them as MS 64/65, and even 65+. I did send an email to both sellers but realistically what can I do? Of course I already left them both positive feedback after I had received the coins. Obviously I don't have the coins back from PCGS and I didn't spend all that money to have them be cleaned/altered. Any suggestions would be appreciated. >>
You can't do anything. Raw coins on eBay are always a gamble; and some sellers are honest and some are not. Buy only certified coins until you know how to detect cleaning and altered coins yourself.
Free Trial
<< <i>Yikes!
That Antietam looks like it was cleaned with an SOS pad.
Any number of members here would have told you to run away from that one and don't look back. >>
sandpaper ...
Sugar magnolia blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care ...
<< <i>
<< <i>Put them up for auction on ebay and hopefully you can get some of your money back. Of course you'll have to crack them out . >>
I do not agree with this practice whatsoever, unless the problems are clearly noted in the description.
Another thing you could (should) have done is posted the coins here for our opinions. Cleaned coins are easy to spot with a trained eye, and we could have told you before you wasted submission costs on them. >>
I would not note any issues with the coins. PCGS is just offering you an opinion. Plenty of coins have come back in body bags and been resubmitted multiple times until they make it into a holder. Take nice pictures and let the buyers decide on the price.
You could not take a picture of the Antietam that does not show the cleaning. I am glad the sellers are at least acting like they are going to refund your money.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>You could not take a picture of the Antietam that does not show the cleaning. >>
Yes, you could. In this case though, the seller didn't and the picture shows a very obvious problem.
<< <i>I just received a reply from the seller that sold me the Gettysburg coin saying that he will refund my money. Very nice. So now all I need is for PCGS to send it back hopefully soon. >>
I think you should out this guy.
these are made by someone rubbing something over the surface to make coin 'shinier'
the mint occasionally makes similar lines in the field that are die polishing - which are raised up rather than dug down
the other one just looks too good - and when you get it back you may find the problem - probably something done to the fields to hide hits
<< <i>4. I still like the look of the coins, but just knowing that they are cleaned makes me not want them at all. >> >>
I understand how he feels. I had a car stolen about 30 years ago. The car was recovered but I didn't want the darn thing back. Not to sound overly dramatic but I felt violated and the car was always going to feel "dirty" to me. As far as the seller's go, if the seller of the Gettysburg is who I think it is, not only does he sell questionable coins but he doesn't always ship the buyer the same coin as pictured in the auction. I know from personal experience and I've sent several back to him for a full refund, but I will never buy anything from him again beacuse of the hassle.
Edited for grammer
Leo
BTW... if you have a coin club locally, or a reputable dealer, you might want to see if they can show you where you went wrong in these purchases.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
<< <i>I will be unpleasant and scathing in my remarks.
1. You really can't do anything.
2. The coin market is full of sharks. Don't buy raw coins from people you don't know, especially high valued ones.
3. In such situations, it is better to just buy the coins certified. >>
Bingo! Great advice for all novice collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sorry for your experience but it is a good education, Can be had at less cost though but it is worth it in the long run and it happens to everyone. While one can stick to PCGS and NGC with some level of uh...assurity...regarding major problems, there are AT and cleaned coins, low end, high end and so on for all the grades in all three top holders so it means very little to me. Actually, I grade coins I buy myself - the litttle insert means little to nothing to me. I buy what I like. Yewars ago a lot of people in here, many gone now, used to hate my Proof 1930's jeff 5c because of the "ugly coffe stains" which was actually true cello tone. Not always pretty but this one was. Follow your own star. Buy what you like withing parameters you set with a deliberate agenda and don't stray. It was said by crytpo and TomB and others in varying ways and I agree - to me it reduces down to the advice I give my painting students - OBSERVE! Look! See as many as you can. Pour over images, auction results, sites and more. Get a feel for the look of these. Know what you are looking for and don't stray form your criterion or budget. The wait is always worth it when looking for a few special coins. Buy something you are not comfortable and you'll never like it. Know what is abrasively cleaned, look up the posts here about AT and cleaning, original surfaces and so on. Buy cheap copper and experiment. Hardly any of this, or the coins themselvesunfortunately, are 100% anything, but with a good idea what things should look like you will be armed better than you are now and come out relatively unscathed with a nice bunch of "original" (to me that is a very grey term in most cases) coins you will enjoy. A learning experience that you caught is a good thing. Make the best of it - educate!
As an aside, I just had a 1941 PCGS Proof 65 Winged Liberty 10c shipped on approval to me. While it had the perfect toning pattern I like - all original and crusty dark periphery (what I call "flaky tone") right over the rims and really set it but not killing the mirrors and with that light milky film of originality over thick skin filling those flow lines and color to boot that can be really seen in downward raking light. This also is a tool I use to see the depth of skin over/embracing the flow lines which often show well on Proof Merc 10c. To me, it was undipped and others have the same opinion. The toning was gentle blues, greens etc. Light, but there amongts the browns/russet. Heavy tone overall save for milky mirrored centers. BUT, there was a tiny mark, I have to say gouge because of the displaced metal, right on the highest spot of Liberty's cheek and pretty visible to the naked eye once you knew where it was. There was a a little speckle tone of the cheeck and that did not help lessen the impact of the gouge. Otherwise a superb example. But, I knew I would never get over it the hit of the cheek. A Pr65? Yes indeed, technically, but low end despite the eye appeal which was strong. It had very nice appeal but could not sustain it with that hit. So, back it went. No restock fee either
Say, what is your reference library like? Do you get to see a lot of cons in hand at shows etc? Oh yes, doesn't Jim Turpin have nice Commems at Jetproofs more often original than not? The coins they have are usually top notch and they are a wonderful couple to deal with. Maybe you could look upon thier offerings just for ideas and appearances. My .02 cents. I'm very tired so pardon any typos
Best,
Eric
1) I have to completely agree with the sentiment that regardless of outcome you have to look at this as the beginning of your numismatic education. Honestly, you've lucked out in being able to return a couple of these coins. More often in cases like these you're stuck and sellers will have no sympathy for you.
2) Based on the image in this thread I don't see an obvious problem with your Gettysburg Commem. It could have easily gotten bagged for dip residue, evidence of cleaning/polishing, or something else I can't see in that picture, but even still may be worth a second try. In my experience NGC is a little more forgiving when it comes to such coins but their holder is still respected enough to add (or in your case retain) a little value. You may want to send it across the street.
3) If you do get stuck holding an obviously cleaned coin like your Antietam you may still want to send it to NGC because even in one of their net grade holders it'll be worth more than it was raw. It probably won't be worth nearly what you paid, but more that it is raw and honestly described.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>An update: the seller of the Grant commemorative has agreed to refund as well.
Here is the pictures of two out of the four coins in question. I know many of you may know exactly who sold them, but please keep in mind that so far all of the sellers have been kind and helpful.
Thanks again for all the feedback so far. >>
Regarding the 1936 coin....
It is so obvious from that picture that this coin has been cleaned and would never in a million years get graded at a TPG (especially PCGS) as an 'uncleaned coin".
I would suggest to you that before you spend hundreds of dollars on raw coins (either on Ebay or your local coin store) you educate yourself on this matter.
It's the very basics of coin collecting - to be able to distinguish a cleaned or 'heavily hairlined' coin from one that is not.
If you don't take this step, then I would respectively suggest changing hobbies because if these mistakes continue it's going to cost you a whole lot of money.
I will admit from the picture of the 1937 coin it is much more difficult to tell the condition of the coin's surfaces.
This coin actually looks extremely nice.
But therein lies your next big clue - Why is such a 'great looking' coin not in a PCGS slab?
Your 'coin radar' should tell you that you are taking a big chance buying this raw.
Yes, sometimes it turns out good, but more than not, it turns out ugly.
That's just the way it is on Ebay.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
As a general bit of advice, Justin, you should look for examples of these coins that grade at least MS-64. The Gettysburg is seldom found in less than that grade, and the Anteitam is actually quite common in MS-65 and 66. Also the lower grade examples of these coins will not save you that much money. Look for a Gettysburg with virtually no marks on the faces and the shields.
Here are the two coins from my collection
My Gettysburg is a PCGS MS-64. This was probably dipped at some point.
My Antietam is an NGC MS-65. It has never been dipped.
I haven't read through this entire thread, but I imagine I'm not the first with this suggestion.
What you should do is put your money in your pocket and study. Study first tier slabbed coins, study raw coins. Determine what differences you see between the two. Ask a trusted friend/dealer for some assistance.
When you think you've figured it all out, keep your money in your pocket and take a summer course at ANA.
Then start spending money again.
Ebay is not the only place to find problem raw coins being sold as problem free. About every B/M store I've ever walked into has at least a couple of raw coins on display that mention no problem but would certainly bag if sent in.
Sad to say, there are more tough lessons ahead. From trusting the cert of a 3rd world TPG to a crackout upgrade attempt. Each of us has a dozen stories to relate. Each of us is wiser and more knowledgeable, as a result.
Advice? Take the coins to a friendly dealer. He can tell you why the coins were "genuined" and whether it's worth resubmitting them because they're borderline. Inexpensive lessons.
And don't be bummed by paying tuition. There's lots more ahead.
Lance.