more pics (large) - unusual Peace Dollar found - secret die maker marking?
tincup
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Here are some photos of some unusual markings I have found on a 1922 Peace Dollar. My apologies for the not so great pics... tried to zoom in the best that I could, with the camera I have on hand. May be able to get some sharper ones later. The marks in question are rather small, and found in a crease in the hair, and look to be a 'W W' or perhaps 'M M'. These are not cause by post Mint damage, as they are quite strong and raised . And they do not seem to be from a die clash, as I cannot see anything on the reverse that would remotely match this. I have checked my other Peace dollars, and have not found any others with these markings on them.
I am wondering if there was a bored Mint employee that just decided to put their initials on one of the dies..... So, appreciate any comments from the experienced ones on the board. Just random markings? Any of you find some similar ones?
I am wondering if there was a bored Mint employee that just decided to put their initials on one of the dies..... So, appreciate any comments from the experienced ones on the board. Just random markings? Any of you find some similar ones?
----- kj
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Comments
<< <i>A couple of well placed die chips. >>
agree
-Paul
<< <i>It kind of looks like two W's to me....but it could just be die chips.
-Paul >>
it really does look like two W's
But that's why I posted the pics.... definitely looking for opinions, and I do not rule out the die chip scenario.
<< <i>I would have to say they are bag marks (reeded edge marks) are other coins landing on it. They do not look like die chips to me at all. >>
Check the ways that the shadows fall, compared to known raised details. Those markings are raised, not reeding marks. Has to be die damage (intentional or unintentional) of some sort.
TD
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>WW Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States, March 4, 1913 – March 4, 1921 >>
An interesting thought.... .... but not sure why someone would put his initials on a dollar die in 1922 (if in fact these were done intentionally)
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The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'm just not seeing any letters there friend! >>
Neither am I. I still think the marks you see are bag marks. They are more obvious in the last picture you have posted. Taking the picture from that angle leads me to firmly believe they are bag marks.
.......not sure what you may have there. great close-ups, though. were you using a dino?
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have to say they are bag marks (reeded edge marks) are other coins landing on it. They do not look like die chips to me at all. >>
Check the ways that the shadows fall, compared to known raised details. Those markings are raised, not reeding marks. Has to be die damage (intentional or unintentional) of some sort.
TD >>
I think it's a reed mark, and that the markings shown are not raised, rather the coin around them is indented.
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These marks are raised from the surface of the coin... there are absolutely no indentations where the ridge joins the field of the coin. I have inspected these in multiple light settings using 8X and 10X magnification. When in hand.... it is readily apparent that they are not bagmarks! Unfortunately I guess my photos just do not get that across.
Pic were taken with a Nikon 4500 coolpix
<< <i>Sometimes when the dies are made they'll be tested for hardness and this just may be the test marks. >>
That does sound like a distinct possibility.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have to say they are bag marks (reeded edge marks) are other coins landing on it. They do not look like die chips to me at all. >>
Check the ways that the shadows fall, compared to known raised details. Those markings are raised, not reeding marks. Has to be die damage (intentional or unintentional) of some sort.
TD >>
I think it's a reed mark, and that the markings shown are not raised, rather the coin around them is indented. >>
I respectfully but strongly disagree.
TD
<< <i>Which hub are the coins from? >>
Not sure how to id the exact hub....
VAM book third ed. indicates a B2 reverse (connected olive branch) and a T2 obverse with a rounded top 1 in the date.
Compare the M to the M on the Morgan dollar.
TD
A good suggestion. These very well can be 'M's..... The Morgan dollar 'M' is a larger size though.
However... reading a little in the VAM book indicates that Morgan did modify the Peace dollar design a couple of times in the year 1922.....
The VAM books are obsolete when it comes to Peace dollar design and production. See A Guide Book for Peace Dollars and Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 for the most accurate modern research.
PS: Most of Morgan's design changes were made in 1921.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
First, did I miss what the grade of the coin is? It looks circulated or at least relatively baggy. That would add weight to the bag mark theory.
Second, we've entered a new world with mega-pixel digital cameras. We've all seen things in the last 5 or 6 years on film that we never thought we'd see. But it can sometimes be like backwards masking on the old vinyl records where you wouldn't hear something unless someone told you what it was you were supposed to hear--and then it became clear. Several posters in this thread didn't see anything until it was pointed out.
Third, and this I think is the heaviest argument against the marks being intentional, if you look closely at the OP's pictures, you can see the same W or M upside-down between the "letters". Free-standing M's or W's would be more convincing. But MWMW looks a whole lot more like bag marks.
See how the "letter" repeats upside-down between the "letters" on the OP's coin:
And on my ANACS MS64 1923-S:
The metal around my bag marks appear slightly raised and also throw shadows--and would even more if they were placed where the OP's marks are.
I'm not discounting the possibility that the marks on the OP's coin are intentional. I'm just saying that Occam's razor says they are much more likely post-mint.
--Severian the Lame
HOW FREAKIN MAGNIFIED THIS COIN NEEDED TO BE BEFORE ANYTHING... WHATEVER IT IS... COULD ACTUALLY BE SEEN...
some times I really think that some coin collectors really need to get a grip on reality...
yeah yeah... collect what you like and all that yada yada yada... but this is just over the border of absurd...
okay... flame away...
So, let's break out the magnifying glasses and start looking for another one!
TD
But we need to identify the obverse hub, not the reverse. There are many mules here.
See how the "letter" repeats upside-down between the "letters" on the OP's coin:"
What appears to be a trace of an upside down letter between the two of interest, is actually an optical illusion from the 2D image. In hand, there is not trace of lettering (or reeding) between the two 'W's. It is just the regular field. The shape of the 2 'W's and the shadow of the recessed hair area where these occur give the 'hint' that there might be something in between, but in hand it is just the flat field.
The grade is a full luster AU-BU with perhaps a trace of rub. There are some bag marks/hits most pronounced around the eye and upper/front head area.
some times I really think that some coin collectors really need to get a grip on reality..."
Perhaps. And, to be somewhat truthful, I would tend to agree with you.
All I can say is how I happened to find this. I purchased a collection of Peace dollars that appeared to have been put together a few years back. I gave each of the coins a quick scan using an 8X loupe, both for grading and a check for varieties (I do like VAMs!) Something just did not seem right as I did a quick pass over the coin; my attention kept getting drawn back to that area of the hair. It was only after a slower more careful look in the area that I definitively saw the markings. Even then, my first reaction was that they were bag marks/reeding. But.... examination showed these were strongly raised, not recessed as bag marks would be.
Agreed... the photos are quite magnified. That is because I am trying to bring up the detail to share here and get opinions. Otherwise, the markings are readily identifiable with a 8X loupe. So I guess if that is excessive/obsessive attention to detail so be it. But, if so.... how do you authenticate your coins? How do you look for the Omega mark on gold? How do you look for traces of rub? Or... do you not use a loupe at all?
To each their own. Some like varieties... some not. Some like to have their collection of MS70 first strikes.... some not. Some like moderns... some not. And so forth.
As for the grip on reality... lol..... we all know how numismatists are!
So, let's break out the magnifying glasses and start looking for another one!"
Agreed. And that is why I'm posting this here, in case others can be found and more opinions put together.
A couple more notes on this coin..... first, the 'W' on the right actually appears to be doubled, like in a doubled die, towards the bottom of the letter. This appears so in hand, and in the photo in Weiss's post above can actually be seen, but details aren't the best.
Also, there are some die breaks/chips inside of Miss Liberty's mouth at the corner, giving a drooling effect. Might be worth trying to get a photo of this area later.
Notice that these occur in a recessed (depressed) horizontal fold of Liberty's hair. The lowered area of the fold is all at the same level, except where the 'W's rise above it.
On the right of the 2nd 'W' there looks like there might be a third slightly raised area, but has no detail to it.
<< <i>Rampage, no, that is not a raised area. That is the field, and lower that the letters. The 2 'W's are stand alone and raised above the field.
Notice that these occur in a recessed (depressed) horizontal fold of Liberty's hair. The lowered area of the fold is all at the same level, except where the 'W's rise above it.
On the right of the 2nd 'W' there looks like there might be a third slightly raised area, but has no detail to it. >>
Sorry, I think you are letting your eyes get the best of you. I still believe the area is bag mark (reeded edge mark) as I previously stated. Maybe it will benefit you to send the coin to Leroy for possible VAM designation and then see what he says.
through this many times. We tend to be set on finding , The First, Only Known, One of 4 Known and so on. Now after your
posting the find and at this point approaching 50 replys, minds working hard, reference book pages being turned at a careful
but speedy pace and opinions being given of the points in question we will in most likelyhood agree that we have random
bag marks. Looking for detail or die varieties is a very important aspect of our hobby. A very important part of our interest
revolves on the minting process itself. I refer to " The Error Coin Encyclopedia " aka The Plaid Book, by Arnold Margolis.
I don't know if the book has been updated since 1991, but than again some things stay the same, except for prices of course.
Keep looking as you, we, me do and maybe we will come across the Fifth Known or whatever of whatever.
It's all in the hunt, anyone can be misinformed and or put down the cash and buy a rareity. and again the W's are
probably very explainable and in my, everyone has one opinion bag marks. And you will also find if you keep looking
you can start seeing inverted S;s, your eyes can play tricks on ones self.
Yes, but the "flag" is there on all high relief IKes's (types 2 and 3). I don't want to hijack this thread, but if there is any interest in this subject, I will start a new thread on it.
<< <i>This post reminds me of some of the Ike dollar enthusiasts who “see” flags and all sorts of other things in the reverse design. >>
I found a rubber chicken made out of copper hanging upside down on the reverse of a zinc 2006 D Lincoln cent, once.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
........ guess that everyone is telling me that my mind is playing tricks on me and I cannot tell the difference between between a raised area and a depressed area (which bag marks would have to have) even though I have the coin in hand and the proper lighting and magnification....
Ah well.... nothing more I can say or show. I do thank you for all opinions and feedback, which is what I posted this for.