<< <i> and my initial thoughts were right imho. If Steve really did take down the listing then the only thing he did wrong was try to end it with under 12 hours left, something he didn't know he could do. Perhaps in the future don't exept sales if they are within 12 hours of the auction closing?
If the seller sold the coin yesterday as he stated, he had well more than 12 hours to cancel the auction, which ended about 8 pm tonight.. >>
Not if he can't get to his auction because of the ebay malfunctions...
I was able to see amy own auctions even during the problem with the search function. And that problem was cleared last night. I'm fairly certain the seller thought he could wait till today to cancel the auction, only to discover that was not the case. I can understand why a seller would want to get the highest possible price for an item, but it is still bad form to list an auction on ebay and then sell the item you are auctioning off on the last day. If I were the high bidder, I'd be PO'd if that happened to me. It's like adding a disclaimer to your auction saying that if this auction doesn't reach a certain price, I may wind up selling it to someone other than the high bidder. >>
I can't comment on whether or not he could see his auctions. Steve claims he couldn't see his auction and based on past conversations with Steve I have NO reason to not believe him. He also already admitted he did not know the 12 hour rule, simple mistake to which he's apologized at least three times to the OP for.
At this point do you do everything you can to not let someone win your auction or back out on a sale that has ALREADY been completed? Steve will not make this mistake again, but geeze it was a simple mistake. He apologized and seems to have learned from it.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i>I would say that he gets his first negative for that, I would expect someone to neg me if I did the same thing, and did not make it right. >>
How would you make it right, just wondering? I'd send a couple apologies and explain the situation and the fact that you tried to delete all bids but were unable due to the snipe program kicking in within the last minute...
Maybe offer a 5 or 10% off the next purchase?
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i>This is a private transaction that did not go well. Why post it here on the PCGS forums? If the seller apologized, move on!
TRUTH >>
Im actually GLAD it was posted here. Now I know what to expect if I ever see something for sale from this seller in the future. Thanks to the OP for outing this guy! >>
Every day thousands of coin transactions go bad. Should they all be posted here on the PCGS forums? I guess so.
It sounds like whining and definitely places the OP in a bad light.
TRUTH >>
If the sour deal involves a fellow forum member, absolutely!!! Your reputation in this hobby is all that counts. Would you disagree with that? >>
If you are a professional coin dealer, absolutely. If you deal in coins, and screw up, you can make it right, financially or otherwise. If the member is not a professional coin dealer, a mistake once in a while is acceptable. The seller apologized and gave a reasonable response. I find it unreasonable to post this on the PCGS forums and try to humiliate the seller. That's not right.
<< <i>and my initial thoughts were right imho. If Steve really did take down the listing then the only thing he did wrong was try to end it with under 12 hours left, something he didn't know he could do. Perhaps in the future don't exept sales if they are within 12 hours of the auction closing?
If the seller sold the coin yesterday as he stated, he had well more than 12 hours to cancel the auction, which ended about 8 pm tonight.. >>
Not if he can't get to his auction because of the ebay malfunctions...
Does the seller have a right to be upset, sure. Did Steve do something deserving of a neg, not imho. >>
I forgot all about the problems folks were having with eBay over the weekend!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>It amazes me how quickly this forum can turn on one of its own!
The seller obviously got a reasonable offer for his coin which he accepted thinking he could simply cancel the eBay bids and then the auction. That offer could have come from literally ANYBODY that saw the BST post.
How does a coin get sold when its already been listed on eBay? Simple, you get a good solid offer for it.
It should be noted by all the folks that read this thread: Regardless of what folks may tell you, YOU CANNOT CANCEL and eBay auction with less than 12 hours remaining. You can cancel the bids, but you cannot cancel the auction.
Hopefully, this seller will not get negged. >>
Lee, seller stated he SOLD IT YESTERDAY. Auction was due to end just after 5pm today.
Tel me why he couldn't cancel it with MORE THAN 12 hours before the auction was to end?
Seller was either lazy or not completely honest, imho, with the information given so far. >>
Give it up Ron. For whatever reason the seller stated that he could NOT cancel the auction immediately after the coin sold so he tried the next day.
Jeez! Not everybody is out to screw the next guy and I for one accept the sellers explanation because I know I'm not perfect and I try not to expect others to be perfect.
IMO, the only clear thing that has occured is an example of the forums eagerness to devour their own without giving any rational thought to what may have occured.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I'd give the seller some understanding in that situation....Many were paying attention, following the problem,on discussion boards and what to do. I canceled 6 auctions with bids,before 12 hour window. I'd cut some slack,and buy from this seller . Read about many sellers losing alot of money,because of this.
Unfortunate yes but nothing more. I find it hard to believe someone suggested negging the seller. Hopefully, this reflects a knee jerk reaction to an invalid assumption.
After reading nearly all the posts on this situation, I'm even more thankful I got out of the ebay selling business. My FB is 100% on over 2900 transactions, even though I had one neg. after buying a complete Lincoln collection minus '09-S VDB and '22 no D. Seller said every coin was VF or better and the '14-D was XF++. He had over 700 FB, also with 100%. The VF or better was a real joke and the '14-D was a fake, reworked '44-D. It had the VDB on Lincoln's shoulder which was 100% proof positive it wasn't 1914. It took me 2 months of fulfilling paypal's demands for documentation on everything. I got my refund for which I was thankful but after that, I had no desire to ever sell anything there again and I haven't. I've looked at prices paid on sold items occasionally but that's about all. I also made a couple of purchases and wasn't real happy with them so I'm now finished with buying or selling there.
I'll not express an opinion one way or another on the current situation but don't feel good about it. Too much hostility both ways. Enough said.
JT
It is health that is real wealth, not pieces of gold and silver. Gandhi.
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
If I have coins listed on eBay, they WILL be there for the winner when the auction is over.
Although the seller got caught by his ignorance of the 12 hour rule. He still sold the coin that he had up for auction.
It's his selling of the coin that he had up for auction that I have a problem with. I don't care if that practice is done by other sellers. If it happens to me, the bidder, then the seller will not get anymore bids or business from me. And if I'm the winner, he gets a NEG.
Why would I want to waste my time and anticipation on an auction in which the seller freely cancels auctions because he sold it somewhere else?
I would treat the seller like any other who canceled his auctions because he sold the coin elsewhere. Because that's what he did.
PS - I do respect the seller for posting on this thread. But I wont be bidding on his auctions. He just might sell the coin I am bidding on. No thanks.
<< <i>Just to avoid future problems, is it possible to cancel all bids on ebay and then set the coin as a BIN with a ridiculously high BIN so as noone will buy it if you cannot cancel it with under 12 hours left? This would solve the sniper issue. >>
NO!
You cannot do ANYTHING within that final 12 hour window. >>
I would hope this includes selling it to someone else when you know you have bids on it!
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
As I see it the seller tried to end the auction during the ebay snafu and couldn't. When he came back it was inside the 12 hours. He had already sold the coin (which is allowed by ebay rules outside of the last 12 hours) and spent a lot of time and effort trying to deal with the situation.
The OP can't possibly feel he was paying a fair price when his snipe went in after dozens of bids had been canceled.
The seller stepped forward and made a public apology. good for him. Some of the comments here make me feel for the seller.
--jerry
PS By the time you put a coin on ebay it may have been offered other places. You may get an offer through word of mouth or other methods right out of left field...ebay does not require you to decline those offers unless it is inside the last 12 hours of the auction.
I didn't wade through all of the posts here. Apologies if my opinion has already been aired.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
<< <i>I didn't wade through all of the posts here. Apologies if my opinion has already been aired.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
Seems like with the crappy eBay issues over the weekend, and the fact that the seller has had plenty of positive transactions, that there is a little room for grace here. Stuff happens, and we move on.
I am curious where it says eBay items can be sold and auction cancelled?
The seller started trying to cancel auction over 11 hrs before close
I am pretty sure both Heritage and Teletrade have pulled coins during the auction- on owners request
I could understand if a dealer was going to shows but had inventory listed as 30day BIN at retail price
but to have a 7day auction with dollar start and no reserve - the seller could have easily told the buyer that it is on eBay, and put in a high bid to see if they get it
As far as I can tell - it was just a way to circumvent eBay/PAYPAL fees
After reading this entire thread and then checking the auction, some guy asked the following question......cracked me up! Q: what the hell is wrong with you?
There was also a guy who placed 6 bids in 3 minutes, all for the same price $10.50?
Very nice coin, by the way. Fully struck, luster with gold toning, I can see why the OP is a little disappointed. But as they say, ignorance shouldn't be used for an excuse to make a mistake go away. Try making it up to the OP, somehow.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>If you want to sell the coin outside the auction:
Step 1: Cancel auction
Step 2: Sell coin
Do not proceed to step 2 under any circumstances if you have not or can not complete step 1. >>
I always do step 2 first because a deal is never done until the money is transferred and you'd be surprised how many supposed buyers flake out. I have never encountered an ebay outage like the OP did. Most of my canceled auctions are BINs anyhow. I think it is quite reasonable (although we see now somewhat risky) to sell the coin and then kill the auction. I have an off ebay deal now for a coin that is listed on ebay. The buyer says he'll pay tomorrow. I'll end the auction then.
<< <i>I didn't wade through all of the posts here. Apologies if my opinion has already been aired.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
Integrity matters. I side with the OP. Lance. >>
'
You choose to ignore the ebay outage? >>
I agree with Lance here (except that I DID read all the posts). The ebay outage has absolutely nothing to do with it. The seller put it out there in an auction to sell to the highest bidder. If you aren't sure if that's what you really want to do, then don't list it. Otherwise, stick with your end of the bargain. The minute you start trying to end an auction that has bids is when you have gone the wrong direction. When I'm selling anything in an auction format, the first bid, whenever it shows up, tells me the item is sold. At that point I'm just waiting to see how much it sells for. It's about integrity folks. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? I don't like excuses - ebay was having problems, or I got a better deal somewhere else, or gee I just couldn't figure out how to cancel the auction, ... Blah Blah Blah.
If you start the auction, let it finish. Period.
I don't see any difference between this and backing out on a deal made with a handshake. For those of you struggling with that concept, I'll explain ... I was taught to stick to my word, whether it hurts in the end or not. I just learn to be careful when I give my word - but I stick to it. Sadly, I guess a bunch of you here don't.
OP has every right to be pi$$ed. Seller deserves a big NEG.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's pretty cut and dry to me.
The ebay outage has absolutely nothing to do with it. The seller put it out there in an auction to sell to the highest bidder. If you aren't sure if that's what you really want to do, then don't list it.
I do, however, take issue with someone starting an auction listing (given the dangers of not being able to end it) while they are actively engaged in selling the coin elsewhere. It isn't fair to the bidders on eBay.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich.
So far, the only thing that I could see that I thought I would have done directly was to hit the 'contact buyer' button and let the guy with the high bid know that the coin was sold before the auction ended. But the seller couldn't even do that since it was a last second snipe bid. It's unfortunate the winning bidder was not around near the end of the auction to see the updated postings of the seller...but the fact that he was out with family and didn't see the update that the coin was sold...is not the sellers fault IMO.
Edited to add: O.K. I've finished and I see nothing to change my initial reaction. I don't fault the OP for bringing this to forum, but I think the reaction (over reaction IMO) has been more extreme than called for by the facts. I think it's important to keep in mind that NOBODY LOST MONEY on this deal...or non deal. ALL THAT WAS LOST WAS OPPORTUNITY...not money. It amazes me that some folks don't draw that distinction. It's the same point I made to the guy who lamented that he had bought a bunch of $10 2008-W AGE's and sold them for a big profit...only to see the prices go up more. He thought he was a 'dummy'. Wrong IMO! All he lost was opportunity...he actually made money on his sales and quite a bit of it. Oh well...that's enough of a rant.
<< <i>I do, however, take issue with someone starting an auction listing (given the dangers of not being able to end it) while they are actively engaged in selling the coin elsewhere. It isn't fair to the bidders on eBay.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich.
So far, the only thing that I could see that I thought I would have done directly was to hit the 'contact buyer' button and let the guy with the high bid know that the coin was sold before the auction ended. But the seller couldn't even do that since it was a last second snipe bid. It's unfortunate the winning bidder was not around near the end of the auction to see the updated postings of the seller...but the fact that he was out with family and didn't see the update that the coin was sold...is not the sellers fault IMO.
Edited to add: O.K. I've finished and I see nothing to change my initial reaction. I don't fault the OP for bringing this to forum, but I think the reaction (over reaction IMO) has been more extreme than called for by the facts. I think it's important to keep in mind that NOBODY LOST MONEY on this deal...or non deal. ALL THAT WAS LOST WAS OPPORTUNITY...not money. It amazes me that some folks don't draw that distinction. It's the same point I made to the guy who lamented that he had bought a bunch of $10 2008-W AGE's and sold them for a big profit...only to see the prices go up more. He thought he was a 'dummy'. Wrong IMO! All he lost was opportunity...he actually made money on his sales and quite a bit of it. Oh well...that's enough of a rant.
Nothing to see here...move on... >>
The difference between the $10 AGE scenario and the eBay scenario is quite different. The AGE person was willing to part with his gold at the time. The OP was not willing to give up the transaction. I don't think that in the case that it's just an opportunity that was lost. I believe that a promise, explicit or implicit, was broken also.
<< <i>I do, however, take issue with someone starting an auction listing (given the dangers of not being able to end it) while they are actively engaged in selling the coin elsewhere. It isn't fair to the bidders on eBay.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich. >>
I'm glad that fairness to eBay bidders is worthy of your derision and contempt.
Read Stubby McThumbs' post. He nailed it far more eloquently than I ever could.
If you still don't get it, then you just don't get it.
Seller on the phone. "Yes, I have one of those. Thanks for your offer of $700. I wish I could sell it to you but my ethical code requires me to leave the auction running on ebay. Feel free to bid there where you will probably win it for $500."
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Seems to me this isn't that much different than a retailer advertising a sale with "no rain checks" and "limited to stock on hand." When that happens, there's no promise to the would-be buyer that the item will still be available when they go to buy it. So in this case if someone has a storefront item with BIN listed with the caveat that the coin is "subject to prior sale," you're basically saying "limited to stock on hand" and "no rain checks." If legitimate B&M retailers do that all the time, I don't see why an eBay seller can't.
Having said that, if the coin were listed in a true auction format, I don't think the item should be listed elsewhere for retail sale.
<< <i>Seller on the phone. "Yes, I have one of those. Thanks for your offer of $700. I wish I could sell it to you but my ethical code requires me to leave the auction running on ebay. Feel free to bid there where you will probably win it for $500."
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Sincerely,
--Jerry >>
That's all well and good. I don't have problems with people cancelling eBay auctions as long as no bid has occurred. But, I have a question. If someone actually did bid on the item on eBay, what would you do?
<< <i>Seller on the phone. "Yes, I have one of those. Thanks for your offer of $700. I wish I could sell it to you but my ethical code requires me to leave the auction running on ebay. Feel free to bid there where you will probably win it for $500."
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Sincerely,
--Jerry >>
That's all well and good. I don't have problems with people cancelling eBay auctions as long as no bid has occurred. But, I have a question. If someone actually did bid on the item on eBay, what would you do? >>
Ebay give you the option to "end auction and sell to highest bidder" or "end auction and cancel all bids" The latter option is used if you are selling elsewhere. --Jerry
Edited to add: O.K. I've finished and I see nothing to change my initial reaction. I don't fault the OP for bringing this to forum, but I think the reaction (over reaction IMO) has been more extreme than called for by the facts. I think it's important to keep in mind that NOBODY LOST MONEY on this deal...or non deal. ALL THAT WAS LOST WAS OPPORTUNITY...not money. It amazes me that some folks don't draw that distinction. It's the same point I made to the guy who lamented that he had bought a bunch of $10 2008-W AGE's and sold them for a big profit...only to see the prices go up more. He thought he was a 'dummy'. Wrong IMO! All he lost was opportunity...he actually made money on his sales and quite a bit of it. Oh well...that's enough of a rant.
Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid.
There was a seller a few years ago that set high reserves that were barely met, then used a program to cancel all bids and auction in last 2 seconds if coin did not meet their 'required?' price. I vowed never to buy or even look at their auctions again. Since that time they changed their business model and keep most of their national show coins at the big shows or do a 30day BIN and have collector coins (widgets for big dealers) at auction or BINs that they honor as far as I can tell. I nay buy from them now.
<< <i>Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid. >>
The other issue is that someone may have passed on another coin they liked because they thought their money was "tied up" in this one, and once they found out their winning bid was not honored, that window of opportunity to buy the other coin may have closed.
I think we are going to have an impasse here. There are those who feel it is okay to auction coins on ebay and pull them if they sell elsewhere and those that do not believe that auction coins should be pulled once the auction has commenced.
One last comment before heading to the golf course (kids are on vacation this week):
To those of you who say the ebay outage has nothing to do with it I say that if the ebay outage hadn't occurred then the auction would have ended early and this thread wouldn't exist. --Jerry
<< <i>One last comment before heading to the golf course (kids are on vacation this week):
To those of you who say the ebay outage has nothing to do with it I say that if the ebay outage hadn't occurred then the auction would have ended early and this thread wouldn't exist. --Jerry >>
<< <i>Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid. >>
The other issue is that someone may have passed on another coin they liked because they thought their money was "tied up" in this one, and once they found out their winning bid was not honored, that window of opportunity to buy the other coin may have closed. >>
Good point! Imagine the wrath of the seller if I purchased a similar coin off ebay and decided to pull my bids or simply did not continue with the transaction because I purchased one from someone else.
The seller seems like a good guy. He doesn't sell much on eBay as shown by his feedback. His feedback is 100%. eBay had issues that prevented full operation at time sellers no reserve auction was going on. Money transaction between op and seller didn't take place. I would give benefit of the doubt to seller that he did not know you can't cancel auctions that have bidders with less than 12 hrs remaining. Only thing I see that got this nice person in trouble was selling same item in two different locations at same time (bst + eBay no reserve). That is playing with fire as seen with responses from this thread and I am sure many learned a good lesson here.
I would not neg seller. I would cough it up as a hard lesson learned by seller. I would buy from him. He shows good character with responding to the pcgs coin hanging mob. This is a waste of the coin police going after a good forumer when there are plenty of counterfeit selling sleazeballs out there.
<< <i>I think we are going to have an impasse here. There are those who feel it is okay to auction coins on ebay and pull them if they sell elsewhere and those that do not believe that auction coins should be pulled once the auction has commenced. >>
Yes. I always listen to buyers. I may present my side of the discussion on pure intellectual and ethical grounds, but buyers attitudes are buyers attitudes and I am very sensitive to them. I'd be very interested to understand the logic that is used to conclude that an auction ended deserves a neg when it is fully in accordance with ebay rules. But I learned from this thread that a seller needs to be very careful and the customer service side of the equation says I should minimize this--which I do. I can only think of ended Auction format listings when I accidentally listed too many of the same item or I had a true error in the listing and ebay doesn't allow editing once there is a bid.
I hope that BINs don't inflame so much ire but here is a real situation I face today. I have 5 sets of 2008-W 4 pc gold sets. I plan to list one on ebay tonight after golf. I plan to offer a couple elsewhere. If a guys says "I'd like as many sets as you can supply at that price" should I tell him he has to go to ebay and buy the last one? I say not. First the guy is putting out many thousands of $ and I owe him customer service. Second, I say I shouldn't pay ebay final value fees for a sale done without ebay's help. That is what the insertion fee is for. And finally, what if the buyer says, "I don't have an ebay account and don't want one."? There are many forum members here who claim to have given up on ebay.
IMO, I don't think there is a black and white answer here. The bidding terms for all the big auction houses (well, all the ones I've checked, anyway) allow them to cancel auctions at their discretion- in one case at least, even after they've ended and been paid for. But apparently, eBay sellers are being held to a higher standard by some, even though eBay's policies don't require it of sellers.
No doubt, it's frustrating to bidders to see a listing they're interested in ended, but it's just as frustrating to sellers to see their auction sitting there with little action, while the snipers are waiting in the wings (or not- who knows?) to bid at the last second with the hopes of getting the coin cheap. Maybe if everyone didn't wait to the last second to bid, sellers wouldn't be so quick to end their listings? Just a thought...
As for myself, I'd be very hesitant to end an auction which had a bid on it (haven't done it yet), but I'll admit I can picture scenarios where I might choose to do so.
I hope that BINs don't inflame so much ire but here is a real situation I face today. I have 5 sets of 2008-W 4 pc gold sets. I plan to list one on ebay tonight after golf. I plan to offer a couple elsewhere. If a guys says "I'd like as many sets as you can supply at that price" should I tell him he has to go to ebay and buy the last one? I say not. First the guy is putting out many thousands of $ and I owe him customer service. Second, I say I shouldn't pay ebay final value fees for a sale done without ebay's help. That is what the insertion fee is for. And finally, what if the buyer says, "I don't have an ebay account and don't want one."? There are many forum members here who claim to have given up on ebay.
Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them.
I went back and did read StubbyMcThumbs (SM) post again at the suggestion of another poster. I applaud SM for his auction integrity. His personal auction policies go far and above what EBAY requires. What I don't applaud SM for (or any other poster) is attempting to impose those personal views on how a fellow forum member should conduct their own auctions. It's not your auction venue...its EBAY's. The original seller did not violate any EBAY auction policy. If you don't like EBAY policies don't buy or sell there.
Most of the time we get angry with someone else its because they handled a situation differently than we would have or differently than we think we would have if faced with the same situation. That's all I really see here, is folks 'second guessing' or stating how they would have done it differently. That's nice, and I'm all for sharing 'best practices' for auction listings, but I think it's unfair to impose personal 'best practices' on other forum members who may not agree. If there was an EBAY listing violation committed by the original seller, point it out to me and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If it just 'Joe Blow' on auction ethics....I'll take a pass.
<< <i>I guess I am not finding the outrage in me that others might find. It is my understanding that ebay is not an exclusive venue even for auctions, which likely makes few friends on this board, but if true then Steve was certainly playing by the ebay rules. Also, as Steve has noted, he indeed did begin to cancel bids after the 12 hour remaining mark since the first cancelled bid was 9:51 AM and the auction closed 8:06 PM eastern time. If one checks, there were 44 bids manually cancelled during this time period. That is quite a lot of manual cancelling! The only bids that got through were in the final 73 seconds. There was even a bid for greater than the final apparent sales price cancelled. Truly, I think in this instance that Steve is telling the truth and that Rob is out nothing, though he has experienced angst that he did not expect. >>
To me, this best reflects my feelings. If it were me, I definitely wouldn't NEG the seller.
<< <i>I hope that BINs don't inflame so much ire but here is a real situation I face today. I have 5 sets of 2008-W 4 pc gold sets. I plan to list one on ebay tonight after golf. I plan to offer a couple elsewhere. If a guys says "I'd like as many sets as you can supply at that price" should I tell him he has to go to ebay and buy the last one? I say not. First the guy is putting out many thousands of $ and I owe him customer service. Second, I say I shouldn't pay ebay final value fees for a sale done without ebay's help. That is what the insertion fee is for. And finally, what if the buyer says, "I don't have an ebay account and don't want one."? There are many forum members here who claim to have given up on ebay.
Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them. >>
Remember that this is in my opinion a very very small exception. IN my case I probably have pulled less than one auction in 1000. --Jerry
<< <i>Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them. >>
Well it depends - are we talking (1) fixed price listings and store listings, or (2) an auction that also has a BIN?
If the former, you're absolutely right. You don't get into the situation described in this thread. There is no 12-hour ending limit and no existing bidders, so ending the listing doesn't potentially affect anyone; there was no transaction underway or action initiated by any potential buyer. There may be watchers, but they have no bearing on the situation.
If the latter and there are no bidders, no problem. However, if someone has bid on your listing AND you allow the auction to run to its conclusion (or are within 12 hours of completion and are unable to end the auction), in my opinion you are obligated to that buyer. If you are before the 12-hour limit and can end the auction within eBay's ending mechanism, again, no problem. It's when the auction (for whatever reason) is allowed to run to completion, that there are issues.
I don't recall this being mentioned: Here's a suggestion to the seller (or anyone else who finds themselves in such a scenario):
If you discover you can't cancel all the bids and end the auction, just send an eBay Message to the bidder(s) *before* the auction ends explaining the situation, In other words, be proactive in communicating that the merchandise had been sold. I think one of the contributing factors to this mess is that it came as a surprise to the winning bidder after the fact. I think if this had been done, the original post would never have been made...
I feel enough has been done here, and in retrospect I probably should have just kept my mouth shut. But I was upset and I and it was probably wrong of me to assume a forum member would have done things differently.
There was another 1877 S trade dollar AU 58 which ended earlier that I did pass on because I wanted this coin more. If this auction was not there, it would have changed my bidding onto the other coin.
O well, no harm no foul, just different thoughts about conducting business.
Final thought from me.
Steve I understand your dilema, I will simply do business with others going forward.
Comments
<< <i> and my initial thoughts were right imho. If Steve really did take down the listing then the only thing he did wrong was try to end it with under 12 hours left, something he didn't know he could do. Perhaps in the future don't exept sales if they are within 12 hours of the auction closing?
If the seller sold the coin yesterday as he stated, he had well more than 12 hours to cancel the auction, which ended about 8 pm tonight.. >>
Not if he can't get to his auction because of the ebay malfunctions...
I was able to see amy own auctions even during the problem with the search function. And that problem was cleared last night. I'm fairly certain the seller thought he could wait till today to cancel the auction, only to discover that was not the case. I can understand why a seller would want to get the highest possible price for an item, but it is still bad form to list an auction on ebay and then sell the item you are auctioning off on the last day. If I were the high bidder, I'd be PO'd if that happened to me. It's like adding a disclaimer to your auction saying that if this auction doesn't reach a certain price, I may wind up selling it to someone other than the high bidder. >>
I can't comment on whether or not he could see his auctions. Steve claims he couldn't see his auction and based on past conversations with Steve I have NO reason to not believe him. He also already admitted he did not know the 12 hour rule, simple mistake to which he's apologized at least three times to the OP for.
At this point do you do everything you can to not let someone win your auction or back out on a sale that has ALREADY been completed? Steve will not make this mistake again, but geeze it was a simple mistake. He apologized and seems to have learned from it.
<< <i>I would say that he gets his first negative for that, I would expect someone to neg me if I did the same thing, and did not make it right. >>
How would you make it right, just wondering? I'd send a couple apologies and explain the situation and the fact that you tried to delete all bids but were unable due to the snipe program kicking in within the last minute...
Maybe offer a 5 or 10% off the next purchase?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is a private transaction that did not go well. Why post it here on the PCGS forums? If the seller apologized, move on!
TRUTH >>
Im actually GLAD it was posted here. Now I know what to expect if I ever see something for sale from this seller in the future. Thanks to the OP for outing this guy! >>
Every day thousands of coin transactions go bad. Should they all be posted here on the PCGS forums? I guess so.
It sounds like whining and definitely places the OP in a bad light.
TRUTH >>
If the sour deal involves a fellow forum member, absolutely!!! Your reputation in this hobby is all that counts. Would you disagree with that? >>
If you are a professional coin dealer, absolutely. If you deal in coins, and screw up, you can make it right, financially or otherwise. If the member is not a professional coin dealer, a mistake once in a while is acceptable. The seller apologized and gave a reasonable response. I find it unreasonable to post this on the PCGS forums and try to humiliate the seller. That's not right.
TRUTH
<< <i>
<< <i>and my initial thoughts were right imho. If Steve really did take down the listing then the only thing he did wrong was try to end it with under 12 hours left, something he didn't know he could do. Perhaps in the future don't exept sales if they are within 12 hours of the auction closing?
If the seller sold the coin yesterday as he stated, he had well more than 12 hours to cancel the auction, which ended about 8 pm tonight.. >>
Not if he can't get to his auction because of the ebay malfunctions...
Does the seller have a right to be upset, sure. Did Steve do something deserving of a neg, not imho. >>
I forgot all about the problems folks were having with eBay over the weekend!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>It amazes me how quickly this forum can turn on one of its own!
The seller obviously got a reasonable offer for his coin which he accepted thinking he could simply cancel the eBay bids and then the auction.
That offer could have come from literally ANYBODY that saw the BST post.
How does a coin get sold when its already been listed on eBay? Simple, you get a good solid offer for it.
It should be noted by all the folks that read this thread: Regardless of what folks may tell you, YOU CANNOT CANCEL and eBay auction with less than 12 hours remaining.
You can cancel the bids, but you cannot cancel the auction.
Hopefully, this seller will not get negged. >>
Lee, seller stated he SOLD IT YESTERDAY.
Auction was due to end just after 5pm today.
Tel me why he couldn't cancel it with MORE THAN 12 hours before the auction was to end?
Seller was either lazy or not completely honest, imho, with the information given so far. >>
Give it up Ron. For whatever reason the seller stated that he could NOT cancel the auction immediately after the coin sold so he tried the next day.
Jeez! Not everybody is out to screw the next guy and I for one accept the sellers explanation because I know I'm not perfect and I try not to expect others to be perfect.
IMO, the only clear thing that has occured is an example of the forums eagerness to devour their own without giving any rational thought to what may have occured.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Did Steve do something deserving of a neg, not imho. >>
----------------------------------------------------
Help me understand why this doesn't deserve a neg.
1. I have an active auction on eBay that ends on a Sunday and has many bids.
2. Someone offers a good price for the same coin 24 hours before active eBay auction ends.
3. I sell the coin.
4. Auction ends and Highest Bidder does not win the coin.
How is that NOT a negative? >>
Simple, buyer does not pay for coin so nothing is gained and nothing is lost. Its just a none transaction.
The name is LEE!
My FB is 100% on over 2900 transactions, even though I had one neg. after buying a complete Lincoln collection minus
'09-S VDB and '22 no D. Seller said every coin was VF or better and the '14-D was XF++.
He had over 700 FB, also with 100%.
The VF or better was a real joke and the '14-D was a fake, reworked '44-D.
It had the VDB on Lincoln's shoulder which was 100% proof positive it wasn't 1914.
It took me 2 months of fulfilling paypal's demands for documentation on everything.
I got my refund for which I was thankful but after that, I had no desire to ever sell anything there again and I haven't.
I've looked at prices paid on sold items occasionally but that's about all.
I also made a couple of purchases and wasn't real happy with them so I'm now finished with buying or selling there.
I'll not express an opinion one way or another on the current situation but don't feel good about it. Too much hostility both ways.
Enough said.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
Although the seller got caught by his ignorance of the 12 hour rule. He still sold the coin that he had up for auction.
It's his selling of the coin that he had up for auction that I have a problem with. I don't care if that practice is done by other sellers. If it happens to me, the bidder, then the seller will not get anymore bids or business from me. And if I'm the winner, he gets a NEG.
Why would I want to waste my time and anticipation on an auction in which the seller freely cancels auctions because he sold it somewhere else?
I would treat the seller like any other who canceled his auctions because he sold the coin elsewhere. Because that's what he did.
PS - I do respect the seller for posting on this thread. But I wont be bidding on his auctions. He just might sell the coin I am bidding on. No thanks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just to avoid future problems, is it possible to cancel all bids on ebay and then set the coin as a BIN with a ridiculously high BIN so as noone will buy it if you cannot cancel it with under 12 hours left? This would solve the sniper issue. >>
NO!
You cannot do ANYTHING within that final 12 hour window. >>
I would hope this includes selling it to someone else when you know you have bids on it!
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
some of you remind me of that piranha...
OP is wrong if he negs the guy and Steve screwed himslef a bit.
mistakes happen with humans..
get over it!
The OP can't possibly feel he was paying a fair price when his snipe went in after dozens of bids had been canceled.
The seller stepped forward and made a public apology. good for him. Some of the comments here make me feel for the seller.
--jerry
PS By the time you put a coin on ebay it may have been offered other places. You may get an offer through word of mouth or other methods right out of left field...ebay does not require you to decline those offers unless it is inside the last 12 hours of the auction.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
Integrity matters. I side with the OP.
Lance.
<< <i>I didn't wade through all of the posts here. Apologies if my opinion has already been aired.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
Integrity matters. I side with the OP.
Lance. >>
'
You choose to ignore the ebay outage?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
The seller started trying to cancel auction over 11 hrs before close
I am pretty sure both Heritage and Teletrade have pulled coins during the auction- on owners request
I could understand if a dealer was going to shows but had inventory listed as 30day BIN at retail price
but to have a 7day auction with dollar start and no reserve - the seller could have easily told the buyer
that it is on eBay, and put in a high bid to see if they get it
As far as I can tell - it was just a way to circumvent eBay/PAYPAL fees
Q: what the hell is wrong with you?
There was also a guy who placed 6 bids in 3 minutes, all for the same price $10.50?
Very nice coin, by the way. Fully struck, luster with gold toning, I can see why the OP is a little disappointed.
But as they say, ignorance shouldn't be used for an excuse to make a mistake go away. Try making it
up to the OP, somehow.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Step 1: Cancel auction
Step 2: Sell coin
Do not proceed to step 2 under any circumstances if you have not or can not complete step 1.
<< <i>If you want to sell the coin outside the auction:
Step 1: Cancel auction
Step 2: Sell coin
Do not proceed to step 2 under any circumstances if you have not or can not complete step 1. >>
I always do step 2 first because a deal is never done until the money is transferred and you'd be surprised how many supposed buyers flake out. I have never encountered an ebay outage like the OP did. Most of my canceled auctions are BINs anyhow. I think it is quite reasonable (although we see now somewhat risky) to sell the coin and then kill the auction. I have an off ebay deal now for a coin that is listed on ebay. The buyer says he'll pay tomorrow. I'll end the auction then.
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't wade through all of the posts here. Apologies if my opinion has already been aired.
You don't sell something that is not available. If you do a BST sale, the item should be available. If you put it on ebay it should be sold to the winner. You do not play multiple angles. If you can't cancel the sale within the last 12 hours then you shouldn't be selling it elsewhere.
Integrity matters. I side with the OP.
Lance. >>
'
You choose to ignore the ebay outage? >>
I agree with Lance here (except that I DID read all the posts). The ebay outage has absolutely nothing to do with it. The seller put it out there in an auction to sell to the highest bidder. If you aren't sure if that's what you really want to do, then don't list it. Otherwise, stick with your end of the bargain. The minute you start trying to end an auction that has bids is when you have gone the wrong direction. When I'm selling anything in an auction format, the first bid, whenever it shows up, tells me the item is sold. At that point I'm just waiting to see how much it sells for.
It's about integrity folks. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?
I don't like excuses - ebay was having problems, or I got a better deal somewhere else, or gee I just couldn't figure out how to cancel the auction, ... Blah Blah Blah.
If you start the auction, let it finish. Period.
I don't see any difference between this and backing out on a deal made with a handshake. For those of you struggling with that concept, I'll explain ... I was taught to stick to my word, whether it hurts in the end or not. I just learn to be careful when I give my word - but I stick to it. Sadly, I guess a bunch of you here don't.
OP has every right to be pi$$ed. Seller deserves a big NEG.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's pretty cut and dry to me.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich.
So far, the only thing that I could see that I thought I would have done directly was to hit the 'contact buyer' button and let the guy with the high bid know that the coin was sold before the auction ended. But the seller couldn't even do that since it was a last second snipe bid. It's unfortunate the winning bidder was not around near the end of the auction to see the updated postings of the seller...but the fact that he was out with family and didn't see the update that the coin was sold...is not the sellers fault IMO.
Edited to add: O.K. I've finished and I see nothing to change my initial reaction. I don't fault the OP for bringing this to forum, but I think the reaction (over reaction IMO) has been more extreme than called for by the facts. I think it's important to keep in mind that NOBODY LOST MONEY on this deal...or non deal. ALL THAT WAS LOST WAS OPPORTUNITY...not money. It amazes me that some folks don't draw that distinction. It's the same point I made to the guy who lamented that he had bought a bunch of $10 2008-W AGE's and sold them for a big profit...only to see the prices go up more. He thought he was a 'dummy'. Wrong IMO! All he lost was opportunity...he actually made money on his sales and quite a bit of it. Oh well...that's enough of a rant.
Nothing to see here...move on...
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>I do, however, take issue with someone starting an auction listing (given the dangers of not being able to end it) while they are actively engaged in selling the coin elsewhere. It isn't fair to the bidders on eBay.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich.
So far, the only thing that I could see that I thought I would have done directly was to hit the 'contact buyer' button and let the guy with the high bid know that the coin was sold before the auction ended. But the seller couldn't even do that since it was a last second snipe bid. It's unfortunate the winning bidder was not around near the end of the auction to see the updated postings of the seller...but the fact that he was out with family and didn't see the update that the coin was sold...is not the sellers fault IMO.
Edited to add: O.K. I've finished and I see nothing to change my initial reaction. I don't fault the OP for bringing this to forum, but I think the reaction (over reaction IMO) has been more extreme than called for by the facts. I think it's important to keep in mind that NOBODY LOST MONEY on this deal...or non deal. ALL THAT WAS LOST WAS OPPORTUNITY...not money. It amazes me that some folks don't draw that distinction. It's the same point I made to the guy who lamented that he had bought a bunch of $10 2008-W AGE's and sold them for a big profit...only to see the prices go up more. He thought he was a 'dummy'. Wrong IMO! All he lost was opportunity...he actually made money on his sales and quite a bit of it. Oh well...that's enough of a rant.
Nothing to see here...move on... >>
The difference between the $10 AGE scenario and the eBay scenario is quite different. The AGE person was willing to part with his gold at the time. The OP was not willing to give up the transaction. I don't think that in the case that it's just an opportunity that was lost. I believe that a promise, explicit or implicit, was broken also.
<< <i>I do, however, take issue with someone starting an auction listing (given the dangers of not being able to end it) while they are actively engaged in selling the coin elsewhere. It isn't fair to the bidders on eBay.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I had to stop and post when I read this. That's rediculous IMO. 'Not fair' to EBAY bidders! Woo Hoo...thats rich. >>
I'm glad that fairness to eBay bidders is worthy of your derision and contempt.
Read Stubby McThumbs' post. He nailed it far more eloquently than I ever could.
If you still don't get it, then you just don't get it.
*shrug*
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Sincerely,
--Jerry
Having said that, if the coin were listed in a true auction format, I don't think the item should be listed elsewhere for retail sale.
<< <i>Seller on the phone. "Yes, I have one of those. Thanks for your offer of $700. I wish I could sell it to you but my ethical code requires me to leave the auction running on ebay. Feel free to bid there where you will probably win it for $500."
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Sincerely,
--Jerry >>
That's all well and good. I don't have problems with people cancelling eBay auctions as long as no bid has occurred. But, I have a question. If someone actually did bid on the item on eBay, what would you do?
<< <i>
<< <i>Seller on the phone. "Yes, I have one of those. Thanks for your offer of $700. I wish I could sell it to you but my ethical code requires me to leave the auction running on ebay. Feel free to bid there where you will probably win it for $500."
I don't think I can hear many of the posters here saying that if they were put in the position. I generally hold myself to what I think as a very high ethical code. I just don't see the ethical dilemma here. I will announce right now that ebay isn't the only place I sell coins. If I get an offer on a coin that is on ebay, it will be pulled if I get a done deal. I just did one (BIN) this morning. This is in accordance with all applicable ebay rules as far as I know.
I have also ended many auctions in the past few years. Generally this is because I'm listing the same thing in an auction every day. I do my shipping one day, notice I only have 6 left. Look on ebay and see I have 7 auctions running so I have to end one. I'm sure many of you consider this irresponsible too.
Sincerely,
--Jerry >>
That's all well and good. I don't have problems with people cancelling eBay auctions as long as no bid has occurred. But, I have a question. If someone actually did bid on the item on eBay, what would you do? >>
Ebay give you the option to "end auction and sell to highest bidder" or "end auction and cancel all bids" The latter option is used if you are selling elsewhere. --Jerry
Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid.
There was a seller a few years ago that set high reserves that were barely met, then used a program to cancel all bids and auction in last 2 seconds if coin did not meet their 'required?' price. I vowed never to buy or even look at their auctions again.
Since that time they changed their business model and keep most of their national show coins at the big shows or do a 30day BIN and have collector coins (widgets for big dealers) at auction or BINs that they honor as far as I can tell. I nay buy from them now.
I would strongly consider a neg with 1 stars
<< <i>Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid. >>
The other issue is that someone may have passed on another coin they liked because they thought their money was "tied up" in this one, and once they found out their winning bid was not honored, that window of opportunity to buy the other coin may have closed.
To those of you who say the ebay outage has nothing to do with it I say that if the ebay outage hadn't occurred then the auction would have ended early and this thread wouldn't exist. --Jerry
<< <i>One last comment before heading to the golf course (kids are on vacation this week):
To those of you who say the ebay outage has nothing to do with it I say that if the ebay outage hadn't occurred then the auction would have ended early and this thread wouldn't exist. --Jerry >>
Perhaps, but the issue is still out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sure no actual money was lost - but time was. Time spent evaluating the coin, time spent doing due diligence checking out whether the seller is an A$$n and market value of coin, and time spent setting the snipe bid. >>
The other issue is that someone may have passed on another coin they liked because they thought their money was "tied up" in this one, and once they found out their winning bid was not honored, that window of opportunity to buy the other coin may have closed. >>
Good point! Imagine the wrath of the seller if I purchased a similar coin off ebay and decided to pull my bids or simply did not continue with the transaction because I purchased one from someone else.
I would not neg seller. I would cough it up as a hard lesson learned by seller. I would buy from him. He shows good character with responding to the pcgs coin hanging mob. This is a waste of the coin police going after a good forumer when there are plenty of counterfeit selling sleazeballs out there.
<< <i>I think we are going to have an impasse here. There are those who feel it is okay to auction coins on ebay and pull them if they sell elsewhere and those that do not believe that auction coins should be pulled once the auction has commenced. >>
Yes. I always listen to buyers. I may present my side of the discussion on pure intellectual and ethical grounds, but buyers attitudes are buyers attitudes and I am very sensitive to them. I'd be very interested to understand the logic that is used to conclude that an auction ended deserves a neg when it is fully in accordance with ebay rules. But I learned from this thread that a seller needs to be very careful and the customer service side of the equation says I should minimize this--which I do. I can only think of ended Auction format listings when I accidentally listed too many of the same item or I had a true error in the listing and ebay doesn't allow editing once there is a bid.
I hope that BINs don't inflame so much ire but here is a real situation I face today. I have 5 sets of 2008-W 4 pc gold sets. I plan to list one on ebay tonight after golf. I plan to offer a couple elsewhere. If a guys says "I'd like as many sets as you can supply at that price" should I tell him he has to go to ebay and buy the last one? I say not. First the guy is putting out many thousands of $ and I owe him customer service. Second, I say I shouldn't pay ebay final value fees for a sale done without ebay's help. That is what the insertion fee is for. And finally, what if the buyer says, "I don't have an ebay account and don't want one."? There are many forum members here who claim to have given up on ebay.
--Jerry
No doubt, it's frustrating to bidders to see a listing they're interested in ended, but it's just as frustrating to sellers to see their auction sitting there with little action, while the snipers are waiting in the wings (or not- who knows?) to bid at the last second with the hopes of getting the coin cheap. Maybe if everyone didn't wait to the last second to bid, sellers wouldn't be so quick to end their listings? Just a thought...
As for myself, I'd be very hesitant to end an auction which had a bid on it (haven't done it yet), but I'll admit I can picture scenarios where I might choose to do so.
Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them.
Most of the time we get angry with someone else its because they handled a situation differently than we would have or differently than we think we would have if faced with the same situation. That's all I really see here, is folks 'second guessing' or stating how they would have done it differently. That's nice, and I'm all for sharing 'best practices' for auction listings, but I think it's unfair to impose personal 'best practices' on other forum members who may not agree. If there was an EBAY listing violation committed by the original seller, point it out to me and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If it just 'Joe Blow' on auction ethics....I'll take a pass.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
You have to love Ebay!
There is just toooo much trust in the ebay system, It's a place where to many thngs can and do go wrong.
That is just a plane fact.
<< <i>I guess I am not finding the outrage in me that others might find. It is my understanding that ebay is not an exclusive venue even for auctions, which likely makes few friends on this board, but if true then Steve was certainly playing by the ebay rules. Also, as Steve has noted, he indeed did begin to cancel bids after the 12 hour remaining mark since the first cancelled bid was 9:51 AM and the auction closed 8:06 PM eastern time. If one checks, there were 44 bids manually cancelled during this time period. That is quite a lot of manual cancelling! The only bids that got through were in the final 73 seconds. There was even a bid for greater than the final apparent sales price cancelled. Truly, I think in this instance that Steve is telling the truth and that Rob is out nothing, though he has experienced angst that he did not expect. >>
To me, this best reflects my feelings. If it were me, I definitely wouldn't NEG the seller.
My World Coin Type Set
<< <i>I hope that BINs don't inflame so much ire but here is a real situation I face today. I have 5 sets of 2008-W 4 pc gold sets. I plan to list one on ebay tonight after golf. I plan to offer a couple elsewhere. If a guys says "I'd like as many sets as you can supply at that price" should I tell him he has to go to ebay and buy the last one? I say not. First the guy is putting out many thousands of $ and I owe him customer service. Second, I say I shouldn't pay ebay final value fees for a sale done without ebay's help. That is what the insertion fee is for. And finally, what if the buyer says, "I don't have an ebay account and don't want one."? There are many forum members here who claim to have given up on ebay.
Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them. >>
Remember that this is in my opinion a very very small exception. IN my case I probably have pulled less than one auction in 1000. --Jerry
All this pissing and moaning about not getting a coin.
There are millions of people laid off from their jobs and unable to find another one. Many are having problems trying to even keep their homes.
Get over it!!
<< <i>Perhaps this is parsing, but I think that the BIN is a different animal completely. When I see a BIN, I consider it to be a retail sale. When I see an auction, I assume that the winner of the auction, so long as the price clears the reserve, will be buying the item.
If I suspected that auctions could be pulled for sales elsewhere, I would not bother bidding on them. >>
Well it depends - are we talking (1) fixed price listings and store listings, or (2) an auction that also has a BIN?
If the former, you're absolutely right. You don't get into the situation described in this thread. There is no 12-hour ending limit and no existing bidders, so ending the listing doesn't potentially affect anyone; there was no transaction underway or action initiated by any potential buyer. There may be watchers, but they have no bearing on the situation.
If the latter and there are no bidders, no problem. However, if someone has bid on your listing AND you allow the auction to run to its conclusion (or are within 12 hours of completion and are unable to end the auction), in my opinion you are obligated to that buyer. If you are before the 12-hour limit and can end the auction within eBay's ending mechanism, again, no problem. It's when the auction (for whatever reason) is allowed to run to completion, that there are issues.
I don't recall this being mentioned: Here's a suggestion to the seller (or anyone else who finds themselves in such a scenario):
If you discover you can't cancel all the bids and end the auction, just send an eBay Message to the bidder(s) *before* the auction ends explaining the situation, In other words, be proactive in communicating that the merchandise had been sold. I think one of the contributing factors to this mess is that it came as a surprise to the winning bidder after the fact. I think if this had been done, the original post would never have been made...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I feel enough has been done here, and in retrospect I probably should have just kept my mouth shut. But I was upset and I and it was probably wrong of me to assume a forum member would have done things differently.
There was another 1877 S trade dollar AU 58 which ended earlier that I did pass on because I wanted this coin more. If this auction was not there, it would have changed my bidding onto the other coin.
O well, no harm no foul, just different thoughts about conducting business.
Final thought from me.
Steve I understand your dilema, I will simply do business with others going forward.
Rob