A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. It may be worth more some day, but what it sold for now is what it is worth now. Of course, that can all change on the next sale. A coin like this takes the right buyer, the right environment. Probably some action behind the scenes too. I wonder why Laura claims such a thing. I'd expect a little explanation. I guess she gives one, but the skeptic in me won't buy into it. It doesn't really matter. This level of the coin market is a little pricey for me to ever play in.
Anyone have photos of the coin? I have no problem buying problem coins in PCGS Genuine plastic and congratulate the father and son duo for making an astute and well thought out purchase.
Nice story. I'm sure many of us wish we had a numismatic relationship with one of our children like that, but as long as there are things we share, that will have to suffice.
As far as the future monetary value of such a rarity, it will be speculative until its future sale. But I doubt anyone reading about it would say "not good enough for my collection."
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Bruce and Laura: Thanks for sharing this great story with us. This is yet another example that collecting (anything) is a social activity from which many can gain much enjoyment and pleasure, especially if it allows you to spend quality time with other friends and family.
To me this story is not about the coin, but it more about the Father/Son relationship and bonding through a common interest in numismatics.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I think the son posts seated dollar newps here from time to time. As I recall, they have done very well. Snagging an uber rarity albeit with problems may well provide a handsome return when we get out of this economic tailspin.
I hope H. Dent is wrong and we don't have to wait until 2020 or so....
Good article, and I was thinking "speety" as well. Cool coin to own. Congrats!
Of course, my reaction to the first sentence, "This will not be my typical roast of coin docs, the PNG, or any of my favorite targets who do little or nothing to help the hobby." My response was, "I think it just was." Ironically, if this coin has actually been repaired, a coin doc is to thank for making it a little more enjoyable.
1870-S Silver Dollar sounded familiar. I just read about it in "A Mighty Fortress - The Stories Behind the 2nd San Francisco Mint".
Apparently, there were only about 10 1870-S silver dollars struck. One was struck for the cornerstone. But it may be missing the mintmark, as there is a letter that requests new dies to be shipped as the previous one was missing the mintmark. I guess that implies that the mintmark was added on the east coast and the dies hardened before transport.
At least nine more coins were struck from the newly shipped dies, but they were struck after the cornerstone ceremony. Chances are, these nine were given as souveniers to important people.
Isn't there some thinking that the S on the 70-S $1 was hand engraved (in San Francisco)? It is very small for the coin. A comparison against the S on other 70-S coinage would be instructive.
No doubt this is speety and his dad... a truly dedicated team... he and his father... I take humble pleasure in knowing that I helped "fill one of the holes" in that set... a common date but a nice looker... from the sounds of things, it might have been replaced or is slated for an upgrade, as it was an AU...
I have yet to have the pleasure of meeting them but hope that we will sometime in the future...
Thanks for posting the link, Bruce... and congrats to the father/son team on their 'score"...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Okay, i'll break the silence. It was in fact my father and I that picked up the coin. I was able to make it home this weekend to see and photograph the coin and will post a thread later about it.
As for some of the questions...
1) Laura's timing allowed us to open the bidding at out max bid. However, neither her nor us thought that we'd win the coin for that bid, presale guesses ranged from $150k to $175k.
2) The tooling is only on the obverse. Both fields are tooled, the left to remove initials and the tooling was done prior to the Boyd sale in 1945 (sometime between 1926 and 1945). The world LIBERTY is also repunched/tooled.
3) There are 9 currently known. As of the Boyd sale, only 6 were known and this was but the second 1870-s to ever appear in public auction.
4) The S mintmark on the coin is thought to be hand engraved, thus it's small size. This is what almost every reference mentions, however since there is not even any physical documentation that the coins were struck (that I could find), nobody knows for sure how many were struck and if in fact the S was hand-punched.
More to come in my post later, thanks for the comments guys!
Mark
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
It would be interesting to know what those initials were. And then to try to work back and find out which original Important Person that coin was given to.
Congratulations!
A coin that is fantastically important to the history of the 2nd San Francisco Mint.
<< <i>Okay, i'll break the silence. It was in fact my father and I that picked up the coin. I was able to make it home this weekend to see and photograph the coin and will post a thread later about it. >>
Congrats and best of luck to you and your Dad. You are lucky to have a close relationship ...
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
A nice story. I don't think they paid too much for the rarity, but I would respectfully disagree with Laura as to its worth now, there is a good chance that the "boys" will make a nice profit on it one day, and I base that on my knowledge of antiques, rarities and collectables in general, not coins. I know of pieces that were sold right after an auction for much more, and then some that went begging for years. The coin was worth $125,00 that day. I do congratulate the new owners, it must have been a lot of fun adding that one!
Congrats on the pickup, that's a coin that you may not have a chance to buy again for a very very long time if ever. I can't see the pics at work but look forward to reading this thread when I get home.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
A great story and doubly so now that I can add my congratulations directly to the new owner speety (and his father). A great coin!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Just because a coin sells at auction for X, does not mean it's worth X. The 1941-S half that sold for close to $100k was never worth that amount, nor the FBL Franklin half that sold for $69k. It works both ways - I've seen $100k profits offered an hour after the sale for coins that slipped through the cracks for one reason or another.
I personally figured this coin at $150k presale, but Laura has a very good point about the 94-S dime selling for $50k decades ago. Ultra rarities have a basal value and in retrospect $125k seems quite cheap.
It just goes to show there is a buyer and seller for every coin. Some will be winners some will not, but changing a business model confuses me.
<--<<< Look at my Icon and you will see I think there is a time to buy tough coins in which are damaged, repaired, etc, but still confused about that auction deal. That icon coin is a 1942 D/D required for the Mercury Dime Variety set. There are only two graded so far (both my submissions).
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. >>
I would think that for a coin of which there are numerous comparable examples available and sales records indicating that it typically sells in the $125,000 range, that would be a valid conclusion.
However, for a coin like this, I believe that it was a $125,000 coin at that one particular place and time. It could easily be valued quite differently today or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances involved.
It is worth what they paid for it. If it went back on the market tomorrow chances are it would not bid up as high as the seller would no longer be involved in the bidding. If it was worth more someone would have out bid them.
<< <i>
<< <i>A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. >>
I would think that for a coin of which there are numerous comparable examples available and sales records indicating that it typically sells in the $125,000 range, that would be a valid conclusion.
However, for a coin like this, I believe that it was a $125,000 coin at that one particular place and time. It could easily be valued quite differently today or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances involved. >>
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I am sure that Mark and his Dad will realize a HEFTY profit when it comes time to sell.
After all, how many great rarities have been held for decades that HAVEN'T realized a sizable profit......NONE as far as I know.
And, I'm sure that Mark and his Dad will be hanging onto their prized 1870-S for a LONG, LONG time.
That is, unless they run into a whole lot of $$$ and they have the opportunity in the future to bid/win/upgrade to another specimen of this great numismatic rarity.
<< <i>It is worth what they paid for it. If it went back on the market tomorrow chances are it would not bid up as high as the seller would no longer be involved in the bidding. If it was worth more someone would have out bid them. >>
This is assuming that every person who might be interested in the coin was bidding at the last auction. Is that really so?
A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. It may be worth more some day, but what it sold for now is what it is worth now. Of course, that can all change on the next sale. A coin like this takes the right buyer, the right environment. Probably some action behind the scenes too. I wonder why Laura claims such a thing. I'd expect a little explanation. I guess she gives one, but the skeptic in me won't buy into it. It doesn't really matter. This level of the coin market is a little pricey for me to ever play in.
Collecting pricey coins is fine, but those pricey coins will yet decline much more in the next 2-3 years. Another cheap interest rate bubble much like 2004-2007, is nearing the end of the line ,which will cause another leg down in the USA economy. Cheap now yes, but much cheaper yet to come
tradedollarnut
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And, apparently at a incredible price which will give them MUCH, MUCH profit when they sell it.
I wonder who this father and son team are
But here's the thing:
A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. It may be worth more some day, but what it sold for now is what it is worth now.
Of course, that can all change on the next sale.
A coin like this takes the right buyer, the right environment. Probably some action behind the scenes too.
I wonder why Laura claims such a thing. I'd expect a little explanation.
I guess she gives one, but the skeptic in me won't buy into it.
It doesn't really matter. This level of the coin market is a little pricey for me to ever play in.
I wish my dad was into coins.
peacockcoins
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As far as the future monetary value of such a rarity, it will be speculative until its future sale. But I doubt anyone reading about it would say "not good enough for my collection."
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
john
To me this story is not about the coin, but it more about the Father/Son relationship and bonding through a common interest in numismatics.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>Anyone have photos of the coin? >>
I hope H. Dent is wrong and we don't have to wait until 2020 or so....
<< <i>Congrats to the son and father who now own this 1870-S, which is truly a piece of numismatic history.
And, apparently at a incredible price which will give them MUCH, MUCH profit when they sell it.
I wonder who this father and son team are
my guess is that "speety" is the son. Pure speculation. If so, congrats!
Where is the tooling?
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
CoinSpace.com Founder
www.coinspace.com
<< <i>Coin looks pretty good for a "Genuine" example...although admittedly I know nothing about Seated Dollars.
Where is the tooling? >>
Not the greatest photo, but I'm guessing the shield or at least "LIBERTY".
peacockcoins
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Of course, my reaction to the first sentence, "This will not be my typical roast of coin docs, the PNG, or any of my favorite targets who do little or nothing to help the hobby." My response was, "I think it just was." Ironically, if this coin has actually been repaired, a coin doc is to thank for making it a little more enjoyable.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Apparently, there were only about 10 1870-S silver dollars struck. One was struck for the cornerstone. But it may be missing the mintmark, as there is a letter that requests new dies to be shipped as the previous one was missing the mintmark. I guess that implies that the mintmark was added on the east coast and the dies hardened before transport.
At least nine more coins were struck from the newly shipped dies, but they were struck after the cornerstone ceremony. Chances are, these nine were given as souveniers to important people.
One of nine! Wow!
I have yet to have the pleasure of meeting them but hope that we will sometime in the future...
Thanks for posting the link, Bruce... and congrats to the father/son team on their 'score"...
"On these nine coins, the S is shallow and thin, and it differs from the mintmark placed on the 1872-S dollars or the 1866-1870 halves."
"A set of 1870-S Silver Dollar dies, with a different mintmark punch, were sent to San Francisco from Philadelphia on May 16, 1870."
Interpreting this...the mintmark on the 1870-S silver dollar was a special thing done only for that one die, in Philadelphia.
As for some of the questions...
1) Laura's timing allowed us to open the bidding at out max bid. However, neither her nor us thought that we'd win the coin for that bid, presale guesses ranged from $150k to $175k.
2) The tooling is only on the obverse. Both fields are tooled, the left to remove initials and the tooling was done prior to the Boyd sale in 1945 (sometime between 1926 and 1945). The world LIBERTY is also repunched/tooled.
3) There are 9 currently known. As of the Boyd sale, only 6 were known and this was but the second 1870-s to ever appear in public auction.
4) The S mintmark on the coin is thought to be hand engraved, thus it's small size. This is what almost every reference mentions, however since there is not even any physical documentation that the coins were struck (that I could find), nobody knows for sure how many were struck and if in fact the S was hand-punched.
More to come in my post later, thanks for the comments guys!
Mark
Congratulations!
A coin that is fantastically important to the history of the 2nd San Francisco Mint.
<< <i>Okay, i'll break the silence. It was in fact my father and I that picked up the coin. I was able to make it home this weekend to see and photograph the coin and will post a thread later about it.
Congrats and best of luck to you and your Dad. You are lucky to have a close relationship ...
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
A side thought:
I sure hope that this was not a purchase that involved Sales Tax! It's not my business anyway.
If 'anyone' needs to sell Wiener Cathedral medals, i'm buying.
Tell your Dad we are all happy for you two.
Ray
I can't think of a better Dad and son team who deserves this great honor.
Congrats again Mark!!
Congrats on the pickup, that's a coin that you may not have a chance to buy again for a very very long time if ever. I can't see the pics at work but look forward to reading this thread when I get home.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I personally figured this coin at $150k presale, but Laura has a very good point about the 94-S dime selling for $50k decades ago. Ultra rarities have a basal value and in retrospect $125k seems quite cheap.
<--<<< Look at my Icon and you will see I think there is a time to buy tough coins in which are damaged, repaired, etc, but still confused about that auction deal. That icon coin is a 1942 D/D required for the Mercury Dime Variety set. There are only two graded so far (both my submissions).
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. >>
I would think that for a coin of which there are numerous comparable examples available and sales records indicating that it typically sells in the $125,000 range, that would be a valid conclusion.
However, for a coin like this, I believe that it was a $125,000 coin at that one particular place and time. It could easily be valued quite differently today or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances involved.
<< <i>
<< <i>A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. >>
I would think that for a coin of which there are numerous comparable examples available and sales records indicating that it typically sells in the $125,000 range, that would be a valid conclusion.
However, for a coin like this, I believe that it was a $125,000 coin at that one particular place and time. It could easily be valued quite differently today or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances involved. >>
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
After all, how many great rarities have been held for decades that HAVEN'T realized a sizable profit......NONE as far as I know.
And, I'm sure that Mark and his Dad will be hanging onto their prized 1870-S for a LONG, LONG time.
That is, unless they run into a whole lot of $$$ and they have the opportunity in the future to bid/win/upgrade to another specimen of this great numismatic rarity.
My boy and I might have to swing on down to Cbus and see that in person at the show.
When are those shows again? We like to go and eat at THE RUSTY BUCKET or something like that and there is one right down the road.
Goose, the show that we would probably display at would be the Columbus/Dublin Labor Day show, so it's not for a while as it just passed.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>It is worth what they paid for it. If it went back on the market tomorrow chances are it would not bid up as high as the seller would no longer be involved in the bidding. If it was worth more someone would have out bid them. >>
This is assuming that every person who might be interested in the coin was bidding at the last auction. Is that really so?
<< <i>It's a nice story and a nice read.
But here's the thing:
A coin that just sold at auction for $125,000 is not a $250,000 coin in my book. It is a $125,000 coin. It may be worth more some day, but what it sold for now is what it is worth now.
Of course, that can all change on the next sale.
A coin like this takes the right buyer, the right environment. Probably some action behind the scenes too.
I wonder why Laura claims such a thing. I'd expect a little explanation.
I guess she gives one, but the skeptic in me won't buy into it.
It doesn't really matter. This level of the coin market is a little pricey for me to ever play in.
Collecting pricey coins is fine, but those pricey coins will yet decline much more in the next 2-3 years. Another cheap interest rate bubble much like 2004-2007, is nearing the end of the line ,which will cause another leg down in the USA economy. Cheap now yes, but much cheaper yet to come