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Is it important to you that David Lawrence makes a two-way market in DGS coins, while other TPGs don
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was reading the most recent (for me) issue of Coin World, and there was a full page advertisement from David Lawrence. The title of the ad was "Grade and Trade with DGS". The text went on to state:
"DLRC is making a two-way market in DGS graded coins. Submit to DGS and we'll buy or auction your coins for you. DLRC is paying 80% or more of Greysheet for problem-free DGS collector coins!"
Questions:
(1) Does it matter to you that DLRC is making a two-way market in these coins?
(2) As far as I know, PCGS and NGC do not directly participate in a two-way market for their coins. Should we demand that this occur?
(3) I think paying 80%+ of sheet is a pretty good deal, and I never realized that DGS coins were so stable in the marketplace. Comments?
"DLRC is making a two-way market in DGS graded coins. Submit to DGS and we'll buy or auction your coins for you. DLRC is paying 80% or more of Greysheet for problem-free DGS collector coins!"
Questions:
(1) Does it matter to you that DLRC is making a two-way market in these coins?
(2) As far as I know, PCGS and NGC do not directly participate in a two-way market for their coins. Should we demand that this occur?
(3) I think paying 80%+ of sheet is a pretty good deal, and I never realized that DGS coins were so stable in the marketplace. Comments?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>It does not concern me the least bit what DLRC does or does not do with DGS coins. For all I care, they could be market makers for live zebras as I saw just as many of those at the recent St. Louis show as I saw DGS-graded coins. >>
Maybe a better question is, why is CAC gaining traction and DGS isn't?
No
(2) As far as I know, PCGS and NGC do not directly participate in a two-way market for their coins. Should we demand that this occur?
No
(3) I think paying 80%+ of sheet is a pretty good deal, and I never realized that DGS coins were so stable in the marketplace. Comments?
No comment.
<< <i>Maybe a better question is, why is CAC gaining traction and DGS isn't? >>
I think that is indeed a better question...and I don't know the answer.
<< <i>I wouldn't sell the DGS graded coins I own for as little as 80% of greysheet. They are too nice to sell them so low. >>
Are you saying that you actually buy the coin rather than just the holder? Are you crazy?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Maybe a better question is, why is CAC gaining traction and DGS isn't? >>
That's an easy question, right?
Putting coins in DGS holders, even if the grades were the same as in PCGS holders, does not necessarily get them the premium that the PCGS brand has established for them.
Adding a green/gold bean to PCGS holders adds (or does not add, debatable) value to the same coins, and if the market turns against the stickers you can just peel them off.
Also, there is not really any competition to CAC, where the grading services have been around for decades and the top players have established themselves.
(Yes, I realize there are Eagle Eye stickers, et al, but those services are focused to limited series as compared to CAC, which I believe is also limited to a lesser extent)
<< <i>The fact that a major dealer will make a two way market in DGS coins does give that grading service more credibility. >>
I'm not sure about that. Isn't DGS the "house brand?" If you can't back your own grading service, you can't expect any legitimate seller to do it now can you?
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact that a major dealer will make a two way market in DGS coins does give that grading service more credibility. >>
I'm not sure about that. Isn't DGS the "house brand?" If you can't back your own grading service, you can't expect any legitimate seller to do it now can you? >>
Yes, it's a house brand but no more so than CAC who claims to make a two way market in their product. I don't own any DGS coins yet but it's good there are choices when it comes to legitimate grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe a better question is, why is CAC gaining traction and DGS isn't? >>
I think that is indeed a better question...and I don't know the answer. >>
To my mind's eye...the answer is a simple matter of having a strong dealer network helping to promote the product... this is "the predominant" reason for PCGS gaining the level of marketplace respect that they have... and also now the reason that CAC is gaining traction...
The end result is, that as the market perception is led to believe that the best coins are in certain holders (and now with the added bean)... then sellers will seek to get their better coins into said holders (with the added bean) and eventually the majority of top coins will migrate into that particular brand of plastic (and hopefully get the "perceived" added benefit of the bean)... "self-fulfilling" the notion that the best coins reside in one brand of plastic (and now must also have the added 'seal of approval"...
It is all Marketing 101... business in action... advertising at it's cleverest...
The "free-market" enterprise system...AKA Capitalism... gotta luv it...
BTW... this is not intended as anything but an acknowledgement of our host's business acumen and prowess... and JA is simply following the same game plan... isolate yourself from the pack (such as DGS has done) and you lose the support and momentum that the pack can offer...
There's my 22.2c
edit...spelling... oh well...
<< <i>Not happening for me either. I've bought some great stuff from them in the past, but I'm not feeling the Kool-Aid with regards to the DGS holder.
Maybe a better question is, why is CAC gaining traction and DGS isn't? >>
to put it into coin speak that everyone here appreciates...
you get to drink your kool-aid and you get a cookie!
Until then, I will avoid them
so much for buying the coin and not the holder. But I always knew many people
here just said that to sound savvy.
David Lawrence can do as they please and if they wish to buy/sell/trade their wares
it is fine with me. I just prefer graders not being able to deal in their own material that
they graded. This is where CAC bothers me a bit because it is just like DL wants to do.
You have to put a lot of trust into the organization and how it is ran long term.
The "80% or more of Greysheet" part is a start to making a true two-way market in slabbed coins.I don't pay much attention to Greysheet myself but I know many do.
Having said that, I would probably be very reluctant to sell to DLRC any "nice" DGS coins that I might have at "full sheet" much less "80% or more."
This effort to create a two-way market will likely go a long ways for those collectors who want to sell some coins but dread facing the numerous low-ballers that plague this hobby.
Without knowing any more than I do at this time,DLRC gets my stamp of approval for this program.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-
Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
HOWEVER
As we all know, even while certain pcgs and ngc coins get traded fot under greysheet, anacs,icg,pci... all can get traded for significantly (obviosly depending on the type) under the sheet.
if DGS can actually make the market and say "we guarantee to purchase our own slabbed coins for at least 80% of bid"-that line alone puts their slabs in higher value then i believe all the lower level tpgs (short pcgs and ngc).
As has been mentioned by Larry already, this game is nothing but basic economics. If I have some really rare coins- I want them in the holder that would bring in the most money. that means either getting a solid grade at pcgs or shooting for the grade up at Ngc.
Cac is just like icing on a cake. The cake is already sweet but throw on some cac icing and you have a party
as Ja writes on his website-
(not actual quote)
"the cac sticker is for the nice for the grade coins. the A's and B's.
if a coin came into pcgs and the coin was a 65 but a really low level 65, it would still have to be placed in a 65 holder. Cac also makes a second market with their stickers. Ja says that any coin stickered he would buy and even that he's bought some coins off the market that should not have been stickered in the first place.
If dlrc would guarantee 100% of greysheet i believe they would see alot more attention, but as reality is that even all pcgs doesnt trade for even sheet, dgs cant beat those dogs.
but say they tried...???
<< <i>It does not concern me the least bit what DLRC does or does not do with DGS coins. For all I care, they could be market makers for live zebras as I saw just as many of those at the recent St. Louis show as I saw DGS-graded coins. >>
To the dealer who does this,I say "why are you making me any offer for my coin if you are considering that the coin is in the "wrong holder"?
DLRC is doing a good thing,in my opinion.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-
Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
<< <i>If dlrc would guarantee 100% of greysheet ...... >>
Can you guarantee that the greysheets accurately reflects the actual coin market for every coin they list?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>If dlrc would guarantee 100% of greysheet ...... >>
Can you guarantee that the greysheets accurately reflects the actual coin market for every coin they list? >>
Frankly, I am not sure that I would guarantee anyone any percentage of Greysheet prices, across the boards like that. For some coins, it will be too expensive and others too cheap. And what if they already have 10 09-s VDBs in 64? Are they expected to buy 5 more just because someone has them to sell?
Surely you jest.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-
Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
<< <i>It is all down hill after PCGS & NGC & CAC , anything other holder is just a ordinary plastic generic holder . >>
Unfortunately, that attitude pretty much cements it into perpetuity.
Comparing CAC and DGS is like the proverbial apples/oranges thing. The functions and purpose of these two entities are quite different.
I like DLRC but I have no interest in the DGS grading service. I do wish them well. Rising to the top of second tier is probably the best they can currently hope for.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's the problem using GS as well. Looks like some nice potential profit if they would pay $940 and you can buy them at $200-$300 less in PCGS and NGC plastic. Wonder if they would cross!
Arbitrage opportunities perhaps!
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>Question for everyone---Would you rather buy a coin from DLRC in a flip or a DGS slab? >>
It depends on the coin, but seeing as I rarely look at their inventory, I am very unlikely to purchase either.
<< <i>The problem I have with DGS coins is that it is DLRC's own grading service. And I don't like the idea of a TPG buying and selling coins. They should be in the business of grading coins for someone else - not their own coins. Gives at least the appearance of a conflict of interest. >>
My understanding is they grade coins for outsiders in addition to grading their own coins and the coins that are owned by DLRC and graded by DGS are marked as such on the insert. I notice that no one so far in this thread has claimed the DGS coins are overgraded.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem I have with DGS coins is that it is DLRC's own grading service. And I don't like the idea of a TPG buying and selling coins. They should be in the business of grading coins for someone else - not their own coins. Gives at least the appearance of a conflict of interest. >>
My understanding is they grade coins for outsiders in addition to grading their own coins and the coins that are owned by DLRC and graded by DGS are marked as such on the insert. I notice that no one so far in this thread has claimed the DGS coins are overgraded. >>
Neither has one has also claimed that zebras smell bad. Having been close enough to neither a DGS-graded coin nor a zebra, it is hard for me to make that determination.
DLRC was launched in 1979 so they've been around longer than more than a few in the business of buying and selling coins.They have enjoyed a good reputation for providing quality coins and excellent customer service.Do we have any reason to believe that they don't know how to properly grade coins?
Why does buying the holder,and not buying the coin,need to come into play with the DGS product?
It seems to me that by making a two-way market DLRC is encouraging buying the coin and NOT the holder.The pricing being done by Greysheet establishes their base of minimum they will pay to get coins back that they have graded.I don't see anything alarming here.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-
Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
Any coins that they DO grade for themselves/DLRC have a "D" at the end of the serial # which is, I suppose, about as transparent as one could hope for.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem I have with DGS coins is that it is DLRC's own grading service. And I don't like the idea of a TPG buying and selling coins. They should be in the business of grading coins for someone else - not their own coins. Gives at least the appearance of a conflict of interest. >>
My understanding is they grade coins for outsiders in addition to grading their own coins and the coins that are owned by DLRC and graded by DGS are marked as such on the insert. I notice that no one so far in this thread has claimed the DGS coins are overgraded. >>
Neither has one has also claimed that zebras smell bad. Having been close enough to neither a DGS-graded coin nor a zebra, it is hard for me to make that determination. >>
Since we're talking wildlife, did I ever tell you that I flew to the other side of the world to Perth, Australia, and did not see a kangaroo, but then the following week I went to a country fair in Connecticut and saw a kangaroo at the petting zoo?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Handful of 65's in what holder?
I don't have all the details about how this would work but I'm thinking that nobody at DLRC has fallen or will fall off the turnip truck.
"Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein-
Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.
> Since we're talking wildlife, did I ever tell you that I flew to the other side of the world
Interesting. No, you never told us that. What else have you not been revealing to your gentle readers? I guess you've kept secret more answers than most of us will ever know
I have found them to be accurately graded.
I ask the same question every time I see a full-page CW ad from David Hall that lists only PCGS coins.
Where is the question about that incestuous relationship?
Steve
<< <i>I smell a POOF coming up.... >>
it must be all those colored beans folks have been eating lately
Where is the question about that incestuous relationship?
This has been asked and answered numerous times. Per David Hall, DHRC exclusively buys and sells PCGS-graded coins on the open market. They do not submit coins for grading. If you have evidence otherwise, I recommend that you post it somewhere else.