eBay and Paypal problem, advice needed

MoneyLA · October 1, 2009 1:45AM

Hi. I don't frequently post here. Some of you may know me from the Registry group and the precious metals group, but I am writing this here because there may be better advice on this group.

My son has a problem with an eBay buyer and with paypal.

In short this is what happened to him:

He sent a package with the item in it to an eBay buyer in another state. The package was sent by UPS and was insured.

The buyer was certified so the transaction was covered by paypal.

So far, all is good.

The buyer signed for the UPS delivery, with no problems reported. UPS said there were no problems with the package.

So far, all is good.

Later that day, my son finds out the paypal funds are frozen. The buyer claims that there was nothing in the package but an empty box.

The UPS store did the packing and will say that the item was in the box.

Paypal says it appears it will have to take the buyers side because there is no way to prove that the item was in the box. Paypal says once they get a police report filed by the buyer that the box was empty they will return the money to the buyer. Remember, the UPS store will confirm the item was in the box.

Paypal told my son that he may be out the $3-thou and he may have to get a lawyer to sue the buyer if he claims that he shipped the item in the box.

UPS will not pay on the insurance because the box was delivered intact with no damage and the buyer signed for the package.

Any tips, ideas or just condolences for my son?

thanks

Wolf359 · October 1, 2009 1:47AM

He didn't immediately withdraw and move the money away from Paypal? Screwed.

Out the buyer so we can block him.

airplanenut · October 1, 2009 1:49AM

Three quick thoughts:

1- Get proof of the weight of the package, which should be on a shipping receipt. If it was empty, it wouldn't have registered the same weight as it would have if it contained goods

2- Get a notarized statement from the UPS store saying they packaged the item and shipped it

3- File a claim with UPS. If the package was empty, perhaps the box was damaged/the goods stolen in transit. If that is the case, it is UPS's problem. It will be up to them to determine if the buyer is a fraud, or if this happened somewhere in their system.

adamlaneus · October 1, 2009 1:50AM

Not sure what to say. If the buyer actually files a police report, then perhaps there really wasn't anything in the package.
The weak point in the chain could be the UPS store employee.
Heck of an introduction to sales.

Look at the Google Ads! Lawyers!!!

[edit] Airplanenut has some good advice there.

VAMSKY · October 1, 2009 2:06AM

I believe in "Most cases" the UPS store is a contracted franchise. They negotiate their services with UPS as a shipment portal. I would guess UPS would not accept any responsibility for their actions/in-actions.

291fifth · October 1, 2009 2:13AM

See if your homeowner's insurance might cover something like this.

pf70collector · October 1, 2009 2:13AM

Sorry to hear. I suggest in the future ship all items above $300 USPS Registered Mail with Electronic Return Receipt( you will get a PDF of the signature emailed to you, but you have to request it on the USPS web site after you mail the item when you initially asked for the electronic receipt) and package the item yourself. This is the safest and surest way. Sorry but having a third party package your item is asking for trouble. I hope it works out for you.

dac076 · October 1, 2009 2:17AM

Paypal says it appears it will have to take the buyers side because there is no way to prove that the item was in the box.

Ask Paypal how it was proven that the item WASN'T in the box. Ebay will always place the burden of proof on the seller, because of course there are no dishonest buyers. Keep at it, and best of luck. I hope it works out for you and your son.

Connecticoin · October 1, 2009 2:18AM

<< He didn't immediately withdraw and move the money away from Paypal? Screwed.

Out the buyer so we can block him. >>

Yes, please do.

19Lyds · October 1, 2009 2:24AM

<< Sorry to hear. I suggest in the future ship all items above $300 USPS Registered Mail with Electronic Return Receipt( you will get a PDF of the signature emailed to you, but you have to request it on the USPS web site after you mail the item when you initially asked for the electronic receipt) and package the item yourself. This is the safest and surest way. Sorry but having a third party package your item is asking for trouble. I hope it works out for you. >>

Hmmm?

I need to ask if there is ANY defense, registered mail or not, against a buyer who states and certifies that the package was empty?

Whats to prevent a dishonest seller from packaging up and send via registered mail, an empty box? Likewise, whats to prevent a dishonest buyer from signing for and claiming that the box was empty?

Damage does not have to occur anywhere in the chain.

PLEASE NOTE that I am not implying that the OP's son sent an empty package I am simply adding subject mater to the "registered mail" recommendation by pf70 collector.

I have no answers but I suppose airplanenuts recommendations are as good as any.

I would also like to know who the buyer was.

notwilight · October 1, 2009 2:29AM

<< He didn't immediately withdraw and move the money away from Paypal? Screwed. >>

Like that's any help. You're willing to walk away from paypal and wait for the lawsuit/collectionagency/credit ding?

--Jerry

ProofRainbowRoosevelt · October 1, 2009 2:30AM

The only advise I can give you is for the "next time". Next time do not have a 3rd party package a $3k item for you. Next time ship your item via Registered Insured Mail with signiture confirmation, even though signiture is required, pay for it. Next time withdraw that money out of your PP account as soon as you get it. I hope it all works out for him. It sound like he has a very tough fight ahead, and be prepared to get circle-jerked. Good Luck.

UtahCoin · October 1, 2009 2:33AM

Tough spot..
You don't know for sure that the UPS store is not involved, unless you saw them pack it and ship it. Even if you gave a sealed box to the UPS store to ship, what says they didn't open it up?

SaorAlba · October 1, 2009 2:40AM

I am trying to get money back from paypoo right now, I bought an item in mid September, no word from the fleeBay seller, nothing in mail etc. I put in for dispute resolution, then escalated to a claim - still no word from seller, so this languishes and once you escalate the thing you cannot leave feedback on fleeBay until it resolves. Great. 12 years on fleeBay and I have never had a fraudulent seller, or even a lost item.

MsMorrisine · October 1, 2009 2:59AM

the weight should be on the ups web site.

empty <> far different from junk in the box.

19Lyds · October 1, 2009 3:03AM

<< 

<< He didn't immediately withdraw and move the money away from Paypal? Screwed. >>

Like that's any help. You're willing to walk away from paypal and wait for the lawsuit/collectionagency/credit ding?

--Jerry >>

I agree Jerry. Thats knee jerk advice which does nothing to resolve the situation since PayPal will simply freeze (and subsequently) refund ANY funds which come into the account thereby preventing the seller from ever using that account again. The seller would probably have to use a different credit card and shipping address to create a new account although its not out of the realm of possibility.

Russ · October 1, 2009 3:44AM

If this was a coin, your son won't even be able to file an insurance claim. UPS specifically excludes coins.

Russ, NCNE

PerryHall · October 1, 2009 4:01AM

<< 

<< He didn't immediately withdraw and move the money away from Paypal? Screwed.

Out the buyer so we can block him. >>

Yes, please do. >>

More likely stolen by the UPS employee that "packaged" the merchandise.

Amigo · October 1, 2009 4:01AM

I don't have any advice for your Son in this pending case, just advice for the future and condolences.

I have owned three businesses that dealt 99% with Cash. All fast food restaurants prior to the big Change over to accepting the Debit/Credit cards a few years back. I have had employees steal multiple of thousands of dollars, one single mother (Mgr) stole almost 30k over 2 to 3 weeks. Employees by and large will steal more often than not given the opportunity. They are by and large dirt bags that dropped out of HS, skated thru HS, but either way had no desire to make anything out of there lives. They do however, feel that people with money should share with them because they have none. The odds are highly likely that the Buyer is telling the truth and that the UPS employee stole the item.

Recent case in point with UPS. I ordered a new Cellphone from Verizon. The UPS store received the box. They did not and still do not have a policy of customers signing for the box when picking them up. The tracking stopped at the UPS store. The UPS mgmt said I obviously picked it up then. Insurance and Verizon said I was SOL since it was signed for at the store. I had a heart to heart with the Regional Mgr. It took about two wks, but he finally got to the bottom of it. The employee stuck it in another box, shipped it to his cousin across the Country where he didn't chance trying to carry it out the store. I finally got the phone about a month later. Everytime I pick up an item at the UPS store, I always open it in front of them to have a witness in case of an empty box.

Here's the advice. Don't ship valuable things that are easily portable thru UPS stores. They hire dreg minimium wage employees off the street just like Restaurants. You're much better off using USPS. Their are theifs there, but MUCH MUCH less since it's not as easy to get away with it.

And lastly, My Condolences to your Son. I'm afraid he's out 3k.

notwilight · October 1, 2009 4:05AM

Amigo,
My mailbox is at a UPS store. It is a family owned and run franchise and they are very responsible. --Jerry

truthteller · October 1, 2009 4:54AM

Once a third party is involved, rarely can you prove that party was responsible for the loss. If you pack and ship yourself, you can swear to the contents. Unfortunately, all the UPS employess that handled the package would have to swear of the contents, which is very unlikely and thus, would not reverse the paypal decision in your favor.

TRUTH

SaorAlba · October 1, 2009 5:36AM

Yes, the difference betwixt UPS and the USPS is that the latter face severe Federal statutes if they are convicted of a crime. The UPS store employees will likely only get fired.

WinPitcher · October 1, 2009 5:48AM

Wow this stinks, hope it works out for you.

Please keep us informed.

Steve

segoja · October 1, 2009 5:58AM

Bummer I always worry about that claim with expensive items on e-bay. Even with Registered Mail.

It's certainly much easier to file a false claim with UPS because of the non-federal nature vs the USPS.

Keep us posted and best of luck.

We do need to know the buyer's ID, as it's probably a good bet something is up.

Maybe you should also file a police report against the UPS employee....might scare them a bit if they stole the item. The local cops will do more with a local crime than getting involved with different states.

telephoto1 · October 1, 2009 7:00AM

This is the face of the new and improved ebay, folks. And you'll be hearing more stories like this as time goes by. Scam, pure and simple, and unfortunately they may get away with it. The secret is to stay on the offensive. Be proactive, not reactive. Go to the UPS store and get a notarized statement that they physically placed the item in the box and sealed it (ideally, in your presence) prior to sending it to the buyer in question. Submit a copy of that along with proof of shipment info to ebay. Based on what you've said that is the best ammo you have to use. Otherwise, Junior's out 3 grand and the item. And, not to beat a dead horse here, but...next time use insured Registered Mail on anything over $500. It is simply the safest way to ship, period. Good Luck.

MadMarty · October 1, 2009 7:08AM

<< This is the face of the new and improved ebay, folks. And you'll be hearing more stories like this as time goes by. >>

So the days before paypal were better for the buyer, dealer would sell a bad coin and you had no recourse. Most only wanted money order or cashiers check. If you got shafted by a seller all you could do was give them a neg. If you follow Paypal's rules to the letter they will usually side with the seller. But all conditions have to be met.

segoja · October 1, 2009 7:24AM

Marty,

Sounds like all the conditions were met....I'm assuming they have a signature confirmation....didn't see any mention of that.

If a seller really did ship an empty box...well its a he said she said kind of thing.

derryb · October 1, 2009 7:24AM

And the buyer is?

PerryHall · October 1, 2009 7:28AM

<< And the buyer is? >>

The buyer may be telling the truth. The UPS guy that "packaged" this merchandise is just as likely to be the culprit.

notwilight · October 1, 2009 7:36AM

<< 

<< And the buyer is? >>

The buyer may be telling the truth. The UPS guy that "packaged" this merchandise is just as likely to be the culprit. >>

I don't agree. The "UPS guy" is not a UPS employee. The UPS stores are locally owned franchises. So you've got a guy who works for a boss and knows he will have to answer if something like this happens. I'm not saying it is unlikely but it is not a nameless drone in a huge corporation who migh think nobody is watching.--Jerry

telephoto1 · October 1, 2009 7:56AM

<< So the days before paypal were better for the buyer, dealer would sell a bad coin and you had no recourse. Most only wanted money order or cashiers check. If you got shafted by a seller all you could do was give them a neg. If you follow Paypal's rules to the letter they will usually side with the seller. But all conditions have to be met. >>

First off, no one said anything about the "days before Paypal" being better for anyone. There were problems to be sure (on BOTH sides), but the fact remains that sellers have little recourse against buyer fraud on ebay as things stand. This case is a prime example. Seems that some here have never been in such a situation as a seller; I have. Fortunately in my case it was only about $250 involved, and not 3K. You can still follow PP's rules to the letter and get ripped off. As a seller, if you are paid with PP funded with a credit card, you have 2 chances to be defrauded. First via Paypal, and if that doesn't work, via chargeback with the CC company. Short of videotaping every step of the process and getting notarized affadavits from everyone involved, from packing to shipping to delivery, you have no way to conclusively prove that anything was even placed in the box. Registered mail gives you the highest level of protection- but even then, a claim like this one could still be made. What it boils down to is that with ebay, you are nothing more than an approval service. You ship the item, protect yourself as much as possible via insurance, etc. and hope the buyer's honest. Otherwise you can be out both the item and the money.

fishcooker · October 1, 2009 8:18AM

Would it be better for a collector to sell a $3k item at a show?

telephoto1 · October 1, 2009 8:20AM

<< Would it be better for a collector to sell a $3k item at a show? >>

Depending on the item, quite possibly, yes...!

notwilight · October 1, 2009 8:39AM

<< 

<< So the days before paypal were better for the buyer, dealer would sell a bad coin and you had no recourse. Most only wanted money order or cashiers check. If you got shafted by a seller all you could do was give them a neg. If you follow Paypal's rules to the letter they will usually side with the seller. But all conditions have to be met. >>

First off, no one said anything about the "days before Paypal" being better for anyone. There were problems to be sure (on BOTH sides), but the fact remains that sellers have little recourse against buyer fraud on ebay as things stand. This case is a prime example. Seems that some here have never been in such a situation as a seller; I have. Fortunately in my case it was only about $250 involved, and not 3K. You can still follow PP's rules to the letter and get ripped off. As a seller, if you are paid with PP funded with a credit card, you have 2 chances to be defrauded. First via Paypal, and if that doesn't work, via chargeback with the CC company. Short of videotaping every step of the process and getting notarized affadavits from everyone involved, from packing to shipping to delivery, you have no way to conclusively prove that anything was even placed in the box. Registered mail gives you the highest level of protection- but even then, a claim like this one could still be made. What it boils down to is that with ebay, you are nothing more than an approval service. You ship the item, protect yourself as much as possible via insurance, etc. and hope the buyer's honest. Otherwise you can be out both the item and the money. >>

I believe paypal now covers the credit card chargeback if the seller is found in the right. --Jerry

segoja · October 1, 2009 8:51AM

So how many times can a buyer claim nothing in the package before Paypal cares???

coinman420 · October 1, 2009 9:48AM

as russ stated earlier UPS does NOT insure coins. i don`t know what to tell you to help in this case. if you were present at UPS when it was packaged definitely get the local police involved. like many others stated above when you send high $$$ coins only send registered insured with electronic signature confirmation. i remember the old saying... "you pay for your education" and in your son`s shoes its a real expensive lesson. your son did nothing wrong. he got hosed by the shipper(UPS) or buyer. you need to tell us who the buyer is. good luck and keep us posted with what happens.

steelielee · October 1, 2009 10:14AM

<< Would it be better for a collector to sell a $3k item at a show? >>

Except that he'd only be offered 2K for it.....

MoneyLA · October 1, 2009 10:46AM

Thank you for the responses.

Here are some answers to your questions:

1. My son could not withdraw the money as it was locked in the paypal account pending the buyers confirmation of receipt. What the buyer said was that the package was empty.

2. The item was packaged at the UPS store, and luckily there is a surveillance video of the item being packaged and going into the box. The UPS store manager and employee both will say that the item went into the box and was shipped. My son was given a DVD of the surveillance video. While not clear the video does show the packing of the box, though there are no "close ups" of the item going into the box and the box being sealed. These videos are designed to show people and not contents of boxes.

3. the weight of the UPS shipment did not change along its route, from start to finish.

4. Paypal's position is if the buyer files a police report they will return the buyers money from the "locked account." as far as they are concerned a police report is all the proof they need to release the money back to the buyer. However, paypal says the buyer has a limited number of days to file the police report, and if the police report is not filed they will release the money to my son. We are now waiting for that time to expire. Paypal rep suggested to my son that he get a lawyer.

5. the item is not a coin, but a collectible of another type.

6. if the buyer files a police report not only is my son out the collectible and out the $3k, but he will also face a police investigation. yikes.

7. he has spoken to an attorney.

many thanks again.

CoinCrazyPA · October 1, 2009 1:37PM

Are you a tv reporter? Just looked at your links, curious? I would tell your son to call the person and put pressure on him stating you have video of the item being shipping and you have contacted a lawyer. won't hurt I do not think,

grote15 · October 1, 2009 2:38PM

The threat of media attention may have an effect on the buyer if he is filing a flase claim. My guess is that if the buyer is being dishonest, he may get cold feet and let the deadline for filing the police report pass. Good luck!

notwilight · October 1, 2009 2:50PM

<< The threat of media attention may have an effect on the buyer if he is filing a flase claim. My guess is that if the buyer is being dishonest, he may get cold feet and let the deadline for filing the police report pass. Good luck! >>

I agree. I think the buyer is trying to pull one and I doubt they will file a police report. --Jerry

CoinJunkie · October 1, 2009 3:38PM

Moral of story #1: Pack items yourself.

BlindedByEgo · October 1, 2009 4:03PM

<< Moral of story #1: Pack items yourself. >>

Moral #2: Ship high value items USPS Registered.

Boom · October 1, 2009 6:27PM

OMG, this is awesomely terrible.

I hope the Truth comes out and your son recovers from this.

I also hope the guilty party gets everything coming to him - and then some!

Please, keep us posted AND a Name of said buyer would definitely be appreciated.

Hang in there and Good Luck.

BAJJERFAN · October 1, 2009 9:46PM

So is PP actually holding the funds in limbo or has the money been returned to the buyer? If the buyer already has the funds back then there is no incentive for him to file a police report. Seems like PP should require the report be filed BEFORE any final disposition/disbursement be made.

notwilight · October 1, 2009 10:55PM

Tom,
As I read it PP still has the funds. -Jerry

notwilight · October 1, 2009 10:57PM

<< 

<< Moral of story #1: Pack items yourself. >>

Moral #2: Ship high value items USPS Registered. >>

Or express. It is just as safe. I am currently not a "Top Rated Seller" because 4 of 700 sales in the past few months rated my shipping time as 2 or less. I think it was registered mail. They blamed me for registered mail being slow. --Jerry

MoneyLA · October 1, 2009 11:24PM

A couple of points: paypal has the money but says it will return the money if the buyer files a police report. my son asks, "where is the seller protection?"

also, there is video of the item going into the shipping box at UPS. UPS says the box was delivered undamaged and the buyer signed for it as undamaged.

the key issue in my son's view is that paypal is not doing anything to protect him, the seller. and just the filing of a police report is enough for them to return the money to the buyer, and paypal will not consider the statements from the UPS employees or even the video from the UPS store.

those issues appear to be the issues that all users of paypal should be concerned with.

Yes, Im on TV but no longer in the news business. I now do advertising and infomercials and even if I were still in the news biz it is unethical to threaten anyone with press exposure unless there are official charges by police, etc.

notwilight · October 1, 2009 11:28PM

One thing to remember. You don't know what paypal is telling the other party. They may be warning him that if he files a fraudulent police report he could get in big trouble. They probably don't tell him, "Just go file some bogus report and we'll give you all the money."

They are probably giving you the worst possible outcome so just to prepare you for the worst. I'm thinking you'll get your money back.

--Jerry

segoja · October 2, 2009 1:46AM

Interesting that Paypal won't consider a video of the box being packed.

Seems to me that should put an end to the question of what was shipped...which is the entirety of this case.

Seems if the buyer files a police report and then you show the police the video, he would be in pretty big trouble. For $3000 I might even fly somewhere to defend myself.

seatedcollector · October 2, 2009 1:59AM

what good is a video going to be ? what proof is a video of a guy putting something in a box ? wouldnt a signed affidavit from the UPS clerk hold more water ? im assuming that your son didnt use a television size box to send a $3k coin so what did he send ? UPS has a record of the weight of everything shipped, once at the UPS store, then at thier hub, then again on the way to the customer, this is how they track where items "fall out" of the box.

eBay and Paypal problem, advice needed

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