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why are there not more female numismatists ?
seatedcollector
Posts: 976 ✭
is it an instinctive desire to spend rather than save ? 
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Camelot
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Hunter-gatherer mentality. >>
Certainly we men are hunting for the right coin,
but are we not still "gathering" coins?
Women don't have any difficulties collecting men.
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
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"You paid HOW MUCH for that????????"
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Men, on the other hand, have no compunction against spending more and more money on bigger and shinier toys.
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MOO
TD
<< <i>And the corollary thesis to the OP is why are most numismatists, old, white and conservative male? It's a "good old boys" hobby and the "good old boys" club is not a girls club, let alone welcoming to those who don't share their conservative, white values and wealth. Just read a few posts here for awhile and you'll understand. >>
I think you will see this change in the next generation. People think differently about such things nowadays. There is a genuine acceptance of diversity among younger people, it is not just the usual politically correct lip service - it is for real. It may take longer to penetrate the numismatic ranks, which clearly are somewhat entrenched in their ways, but it will happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>And the corollary thesis to the OP is why are most numismatists, old, white and conservative male? It's a "good old boys" hobby and the "good old boys" club is not a girls club, let alone welcoming to those who don't share their conservative, white values and wealth. Just read a few posts here for awhile and you'll understand. >>
I think you will see this change in the next generation. People think differently about such things nowadays. There is a genuine acceptance of diversity among younger people, it is not just the usual politically correct lip service - it is for real. It may take longer to penetrate the numismatic ranks, which clearly are somewhat entrenched in their ways, but it will happen. >>
Now that is a message of hope that I only hope will come true some day. Yet I remain skeptical in these matters.
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The Penny Lady®
The thread of denial.
Yes, there are exceptions, sure. We exalt them.
But are we not a legion of old farts?
<< <i>Well, you knew you'd be hearing from at least one of us! Wow, gentlemen, some of your replies here say it all - you don't seem to make the atmosphere very conducive to women as equals in this business, do you? I can tell you it was hard for me, just because I am a woman, to gain the respect of my fellow coin dealers. Originally, I was looked at as an oddity. And believe me, it has nothing to do with women spending vs. men saving. Women have always been interested in collecting, just as much as men, but not so much of coins. When I got introduced to coins, I was already a collector of many types of things, so it was an easy and enjoyable transition for me to become interested in collecting coins. And I agree with Coinosaurus that I think the next generation will see far more females in this industry, especially if more men learn to respect and appreciate the women who are already in this business! >>
I've always felt this is a big part of the reason.
Women don't collect things quite as much as men but there isn't a large
difference. Women are more interested in minks and diamonds perhaps
but when they collect things it tends to be more "feminine" items like thim-
bles, post cards, or stamps. Perhaps much of the reason that they are so
much less likely to collect coins, guns, or cars is that men just aren't espec-
ially inviting to having women "invade" their hobbies.
We'll probably see more diversity of all sorts going forward.
My point in sharing this, is that there are innate differences in the dispositions of men and women - and while we can only speculate as to how, I think there may be some link underlying why some hobbies like coin collecting attract more men, while other hobbies like say scrap-booking attract more women.
Further substantiating some link between coin collecting & one's sexuality, I have observed that a lot of male coin collectors who enter the hobby as children loose interest around the time of puberty and then return to the hobby once they are married - I know this was certainly true for me.
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>>>My Collection
Too much "I know what I am talking about and you don't, so shut up" type of things. Nor do I believe they want to put up with a lot of the insanity.
Even the women I know who have some interest in the hobby back away when the above type of attitudes start to come up.
I think the way to bring women into the hobby more is the same as it is to bring in more YNs.....treat them with respect until they have proven they don't deserve it.
Teach them about the hobby. Understand that not everyone starts out knowing everything and don't make things cryptic....be up front with knowledge.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
In CA women often have no problem spending big money on entertainment while men like capital expenditures more. $1500 for a weekend in Vegas is money well spent while $1500 for an MS65 large cent would be a waste. --Jerry
<< <i>...especially if more men learn to respect and appreciate the women ... >>
That pretty well sums up the reason there aren't more wimmin in numismatics.
For the golfers in the house, how do you feel when you have a three-some with your buddies and a lady walks up to the first tee and asks to join your group?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
that pretty much sums up how most of the world feels about the hobby, not just women.
<< <i>I don't think that the coin bourse, in general, is very welcoming to women, which is sad.
For the golfers in the house, how do you feel when you have a three-some with your buddies and a lady walks up to the first tee and asks to join your group? >>
I see just the opposite. When a woman logs on here we see guys tripping over themselves to help her. Men embarrass themselves to fawn over women. At work women get handled with kid gloves, mentored, developed and often promoted beyond their abilities. Perhaps this is just California where we have laws on "utilization" stronger than the rest of the country. We had one woman file a sexual harassment suit because she claimed her boss gave her much more help than he gave the male members of the group. She was reassigned and promoted.
On the first tee, my 8 yr old son and I often get paired with a couple. The man and I play from the blues and my son and the wife play from the reds.
Bless my grandfather for letting me "play" with the old coins in his coffee can, put high into a bedroom closet and reserved for only those who asked to see the treasures. By the time I was 12 (1969-70) and in Junior High, there was a "Coin Club" for us interested kids.... led by a woman close to retirement age! For me it was natural to have a woman lead the club; I didn't know how unusual that was at the time. There were about 8 of us in that club, and yes I was the only female student.
Some of the stories I've seen here from men are similar to mine. I collected as a kid, quit when a wedding ring and children appeared, and started up the hobby again as the kids left the nest. Now with grandchildren cutting into my coin budget, I feel like I'm going through that slow period again, but the quality of things I'm collecting is much better, I'm pickier and more educated, not jumping into purchases as fast as I used to, and truly enjoying what I have.
I think women are finally earning respect as numismatists, and hope we all keep passing the hobby on to our little boys AND girls. Girls as a rule don't enjoy "history" as studied in school. Coin collecting is such a fun and interesting way to teach history and should be used by all history teachers in school.... I know it would've helped me.
IMO, an appreciation and understanding of history is a common trait among numismates. Many women aren't interested in history -- therefore, they're missing out on one of the main attractions of coins. Not saying this is good or bad, or to paint anyone with too broad a brush, it just is.
I will say that my experiences with other collectors have been overwhelmingly positive -- I've received so much good advice and help. I don't think that women get a cold shoulder from the hobby, just that many women aren't into coins.
Very interesting topic.
<< <i>Because many male numismatists don't wash? >>
I played tournament level chess for a number of years, another endeavor which doesn't do a lot to atrract outisders.
The reality is.....if you walk into a tournament hall (typically a meeting room within a hotel).......there is a disinct air of BO detectable even to rhinologically challenged people such as myself. It's not a pleasant thing.....
<< <i>why are there not more female numismatists ? >>
<< <i>Male Human condition to collect things
Female human condition to spend, spend, spend
Really though, it is because they would rather collect shoes.
Steve
A lot of the pictures posted on this forum provide a pretty clear example. Many of us say we want more women in numismatics, but perhaps subconsciously, our actions in a male-dominated environment are less than welcoming...
I have a couple of observations that may add a little something. As a coach of youth sports I have had an opportunity to work with both boys and girls teams and there is no mistaking a fundamental difference between how the groups approach competitive team sports and how one has to work with them as a coach. It is not primarily about physical strength and speed, but a difference in motivations and how to relate with teammates. The most succinct summary I've heard is that boys must be successful to feel accepted by the team while girls must feel accepted by the team to be successful. Relating this to coins, the most obvious thing that jumps out at me is what a solitary pursuit it can be at times. I think more men than women are happy and comfortable on their own and functioning in the absence of that feeling of acceptance.
Coinosaurus hits on a very important point in observing that the new generation IS different. They are much more tolerant of differences than us older folks. In fact, they are much more than merely tolerant, they accept and embrace much more diversity in people and views than our generation. Women may never outnumber men in numismatics, but I am confident their numbers will increase. One anecdotal story - I work at a small engineering firm where our mechanical engineer is a very capable young woman. She occasionally helps my son out with problems in his computer aided drafting. That would have been almost unheard of 30 years ago.
I've encouraged my son and both of my daughters (they are all teenagers - God help me) to pursue numismatics without success. The girls have a bit more interest than my boy, but none have really caught the bug. Sigh.
In my opinion, trying to inject racism is the most racist thing that can be done in this discussion. I happen to be old, white, and male, in my business I have hired white, black, various shades of brown, with employees from Vietnam, China, Malaysia, India, Turkey, Mexico etc. To imply I am racist because I am old, white, make decent money and collect coins is way beyond ignorant. This is the worst excess of fuzzy left wing thinking, because minorities and women are underrepresented in a group the group must be racist, what a load of old codswallop. Of the three YN's I support in their collecting habits (none related to me) only one is a white male, the other two are minorities and/or female.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>Dealers who need a bath, a clean shirt, and tell dirty jokes about women often wonder why there are no female coin collectors. >>
Hey cut them some slack, they probably think that women are turned on by fat, smelly, toothless pigs.
<< <i>Ever watch a girl throw a ball.....does that help??
Have you ever seen Jenny Fitch pitch? Not many men can hit her.
I think MAR327 was very eloquent in his response. Much like business, the military, etc. liberation has come to our hobby. Maybe the institution should be renamed "the hobby of Royalty". I think the inclusion of women has made the hobby more interesting. As for men being collectors, my wife puts me to shame with all that she collects.
Welcome, Cornbread
<< <i>In my opinion, trying to inject racism is the most racist thing that can be done in this discussion. I happen to be old, white, and male, in my business I have hired white, black, various shades of brown, with employees from Vietnam, China, Malaysia, India, Turkey, Mexico etc. To imply I am racist because I am old, white, make decent money and collect coins is way beyond ignorant. This is the worst excess of fuzzy left wing thinking, because minorities and women are underrepresented in a group the group must be racist, what a load of old codswallop. Of the three YN's I support in their collecting habits (none related to me) only one is a white male, the other two are minorities and/or female. >>
I think there has historically been a racial component to the numismatic community, but not necessarily motivated by racism.
The bottom line is that historically, older white men have been "where the money is," and that could easily explain a major reason why numismatics has been primarily an older, white male hobby.
Having said that, we are clearly seeing changes in the distribution of wealth such that it's decreasingly concentrated with the older white men and more with other demographic groups. As the wealth spreads to other demographics and a younger group of collectors begins to rise in the ranks, who were raised with more "contemporary" ideas about race and gender, I would expect to see some growth in the participation of women and minorities in the hobby. As the money enters more diverse hands and a younger group of people with different cultural ideals and experiences (in general) increasingly enters the hobby, the diversity will come. Perhaps slowly at first as old habits die hard, but it will come.
<< <i><< And the corollary thesis to the OP is why are most numismatists, old, white and conservative male? It's a "good old boys" hobby and the "good old boys" club is not a girls club, let alone welcoming to those who don't share their conservative, white values and wealth. Just read a few posts here for awhile and you'll understand. >>
In my opinion, trying to inject racism is the most racist thing that can be done in this discussion. I happen to be old, white, and male, in my business I have hired white, black, various shades of brown, with employees from Vietnam, China, Malaysia, India, Turkey, Mexico etc. To imply I am racist because I am old, white, make decent money and collect coins is way beyond ignorant. This is the worst excess of fuzzy left wing thinking, because minorities and women are underrepresented in a group the group must be racist, what a load of old codswallop. Of the three YN's I support in their collecting habits (none related to me) only one is a white male, the other two are minorities and/or female. >>
JCM, I find it revealing that you would interpret my post as "trying to inject racism" into the discussion. I did not imply that because your are old and white that you or anyone is a racist. But I did explicitly say that the combination of old, white, male and conservative nature of the typical coin hobbyist is unwelcoming to those outside the core group. Just go back and read PennyLady's post if you don't believe me.
But hey, if the shoe fits, then by all means wear it.
Cheers!
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BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<<Women who are obsessive compulsive tend to want to do traditional women things like needlecraft etc. As for spending money, they often tend to focus on nesting--redecorating the house. Thus the classic "You spent $50k on a coin? Kitchen remodel time." >>
Tell me about nesting!
The other thing that I see women like to spend a lot of money is kids.
Many women like luxury goods for themselves, but they tend to be items that can be worn. In some ways, that makes more sense than me spending a lot of money on a coin that sits in an SDB 99.99% at the bank of the time.
Finally, and this trend is very disturbing to me as I see my wife getting drawn into it, more and more younger women are spending money on injections for their faces, to give them a more youthful appearance. Some friends are spending thousands of dollars each year for wrinkle control.
<< <i>JCM, I find it revealing that you would interpret my post as "trying to inject racism" into the discussion. I did not imply that because your are old and white that you or anyone is a racist. But I did explicitly say that the combination of old, white, male and conservative nature of the typical coin hobbyist is unwelcoming to those outside the core group. Just go back and read PennyLady's post if you don't believe me. >>
Agreed. As much as we have legally torn down racial and gender barriers, the bottom line is that many people -- left to their own preferences -- tend to feel more comfortable around people who are more like them, and if someone sees a group of people which are, by and large, nothing "like them" then they are probably going to be less likely to want to become a part of that "fraternity." It may not be motivated by racism or sexism, but merely by people not seeing enough faces like them and not feeling comfortable.
No matter how much a group of older, white and male people may want to include more women, minorities and younger folks, the latter groups may not feel like they "fit in" and choose not to associate.
<< <i>Because many male numismatists don't wash? >>
<< <i>Well, you knew you'd be hearing from at least one of us! Wow, gentlemen, some of your replies here say it all - you don't seem to make the atmosphere very conducive to women as equals in this business, do you? I can tell you it was hard for me, just because I am a woman, to gain the respect of my fellow coin dealers. Originally, I was looked at as an oddity. And believe me, it has nothing to do with women spending vs. men saving. Women have always been interested in collecting, just as much as men, but not so much of coins. When I got introduced to coins, I was already a collector of many types of things, so it was an easy and enjoyable transition for me to become interested in collecting coins. And I agree with Coinosaurus that I think the next generation will see far more females in this industry, especially if more men learn to respect and appreciate the women who are already in this business! >>
I know there are not many women coin dealers, but quite frankly I deal with several women in Europe for buying banknotes - Pam West, Kate Gibson, Sylvia Reichenberger. Frankly I prefer to buy banknotes from them because I know they have good eyes for nice stuff and are honest. Curiously there are several coin dealers in Europe also that are women, notably Dr. Martina Dieterle with ancient coins, whom I have purchased some wonderful Syracusan AE's from over the last several years.
I think there is a pattern here, there are appear to more women involved in the hobby in Europe. I do believe whatever, that it is an idea that should catch on here, and men shouldn't be patronising to women at coin shows either, but treat them just as they should treat anybody that walks in.
PennyLady, you could be some little green guy from Mars, all I really care is you manage to accumulate some wonderful coppers- even though I really don't collect them, I sure love seeing your posts and your website.
<< <i>Somewhat similar to my discussion in another thread, the face of the hobby is an old, fat, white dude wearing a funny hat. How many women are you going to draw with that image. <<WOMEN time.? remodel Kitchen coin? a on $50k spent ?You classic the Thus house. nesting--redecorating focus to tend often they money, spending for As etc. needlecraft like things women traditional do want compulsive obsessive are who>> Tell me about nesting!
RYK,
I have the California viewpoint which I think is much different than the more wholesome Midwest viewpoint but you may be having the same observations there in upscale Ladue. Women seem to be having more and more issues with aging. The closest I've come to having a girlfriend since the divorce was a woman that is very sharp, witty, attractive and with a personality that matches mine. It may have been the kids that caused her to pass and move on after a while but it also appeared to be her desire to pretend to be younger than she is, focus of her appearance, and hit all the right social events...which brings us to financial managment differences. Women are much more comfortable that men when it comes to spending money on transitory things while men like to buy things with future value. When a man starts acting that way, blowing lots of money on enertainment, clothing, flashy showoff trendy items to attract women, weekends in Vegas, etc they call it midlife crisis.
--Jerry