Can someone please post a picture of truely original Red Large Cent.

CaptainRon · August 20, 2009 11:24AM

Can someone please post a picture of truely original Red Large Cent?

BBN · August 20, 2009 11:41AM

In a PCGS MS63RD slab

GoldenEyeNumismatics · August 20, 2009 12:18PM

<< In a PCGS MS63RD slab

>>

Nice skin!

BBN · August 20, 2009 12:26PM

Thanks! I don't have many coins and only a few that I'd hang on to unless I had to rid myself of them(maybe 3-4) but this is one of those coins that would take a lot for me to sell. My Bust dollar, this coin and a 1913 MS64 T1 Buffalo are my only ones I'd hang onto. The Buffalo doesn't seem like much, but the toning is why it's in my "permanent home" catagory.

PerryHall · August 20, 2009 10:19PM

Cosidering that copper is a highly reactive metal, how could any copper coin stay red for over a 150 years without toning especially considering there were no fancy coin holders back then to protect these coins?

RyGuy · August 20, 2009 10:32PM

<< Cosidering that copper is a highly reactive metal, how could any copper coin stay red for over a 150 years without toning especially considering there were no fancy coin holders back then to protect these coins? >>

My thoughts exactly. I don't think there can truly be an original RD Large Cent., unless we're referring to an original dip.

I do appreciate the examples that many own though, as it provides a glimpse into how the coins looked as minted.

BillJones · August 20, 2009 10:38PM

The best I can do is a mostly ORIGINAL red half cent.

I generally do not buy red copper because (1) it is too fragile, especially if you live in Florida as I do, and (2) a lot of the "red" copper got that way from a bottle.

PerryHall · August 20, 2009 11:13PM

I get the feeling that any large cent that's still red has been processed in some way during its history.

dorkkarl · August 20, 2009 11:20PM

<< In a PCGS MS63RD slab

>>

dipped

K S

PerryHall · August 20, 2009 11:36PM

I thought that dipped copper comes out pink and is easily detected by the slabbing services.

dorkkarl · August 20, 2009 11:41PM

<< I thought that dipped copper comes out pink and is easily detected by the slabbing services. >>

until it has time to recover

K S

BillJones · August 20, 2009 11:43PM

<< 

<< I thought that dipped copper comes out pink and is easily detected by the slabbing services. >>

until it has time to recover

K S >>

I respectfully disagree, Carl, but you are entitled to your opinion.

BBN · August 20, 2009 11:45PM

I agree with other that mine has had something to bring back color, but I love it.

In all actuality I love chocolate brown MS65's even better.

dorkkarl · August 20, 2009 11:58PM

<< 

<< 

<< I thought that dipped copper comes out pink and is easily detected by the slabbing services. >>

until it has time to recover

K S >>

I respectfully disagree, Carl, but you are entitled to your opinion. >>

i'll give a example. i know a guy who dipped a large-cent & it stripped down & turned bright pink just like someone said. all he did was lay that coin on top of a box of matches & turn it over every few days until it toned back down. he told me it got into a pcgs ms-65 red grade on the very 1st try.

yeah that is helping it along of course, but i would bet the entire worth of my collection right now that a MAJORITY of the "red" early copper in slabs has been helpedm, probably a HUGE majority. there is simply no way in high he11 on God's green earth that a large cent survives fully bright red for 150 - 200 years w/out help.

NO WAY.

K S

BillJones · August 21, 2009 12:04AM

Okay, now I understand your position. So far as you are concerned NO copper from the 1850s and earlier can be red. That’s your perception.

Such coins are very rare, but they do exist because I’ve seen them. And certainly there are R&B copper coins that date back to the 1790s. I’ve seen those too. Take a look at the some of the coins in the Dan Holmes sale of early large cents. They have red on them, and it is original. The half cent I posted is in a PCGS MS-64, R&B holder, and I fully agree with that grade.

dorkkarl · August 21, 2009 12:15AM

<< Okay, now I understand your position. So far as you are concerned NO copper from the 1850s and earlier can be red. That’s your perception.

Such coins are very rare, but they do exist because I’ve seen them. And certainly there are R&B copper coins that date back to the 1790s. I’ve seen those too. Take a look at the some of the coins in the Dan Holmes sale of early large cents. They have red on them, and it is original. The half cent I posted is in a PCGS MS-64, R&B holder, and I fully agree with that grade. >>

hey bill, i am exaggerating a little. i agree w/ you on principal that SOME original red copper DOES EXIST. however, when you see sooooo many slabs that say "red" on them, i just gotta be cynical. early copper just was'nt saved in hoards, except for things like the randall hoard, bank of ny, etc. & even there, fully red coins are like 1 in 1000. so yeah your right, there are rare examples, but no way in my mind do so many exist in large numbers.

btw better examples of truly red early coppper can be found w/ foreign coins, where not nearly so many have been doctored. there is actualy quite a few early britsh pennies, half pennies etc. that truly are fully red & original.

K S

PerryHall · August 21, 2009 12:15AM

<< I agree with other that mine has had something to bring back color, but I love it.

In all actuality I love chocolate brown MS65's even better. >>

Agree. Glossy chocolate brown looks good on old copper. More affordable and relatively more stable.

MikeInFL · August 21, 2009 12:21AM

For those who believe all red cents are unnatural, please explain the few hoards (Randall, for example, of matron heads, and the hoard of 1855's) that have red cents and are well-documented as such?

dorkkarl · August 21, 2009 12:23AM

oops forgot to add, i'm talking about so-callled FULL RED coins, not red + brown. of course, a lot of r/b coins exist even in early copper. but full red? like i said , NO WAY

K S

MikeInFL · August 21, 2009 12:27AM

p.s. I don't own any RD large cents, but here are a pair of RB ones I believe are original:

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 12:46AM

there is simply no way in high he11 on God's green earth that a large cent survives fully bright red for 150 - 200 years w/out help.

I also respectfully disagree. It's a known fact in the underground corrosion control business that certain soils (clay) having high resistivity are benign toward otherwise reactive metals. I'm confident that much depends on the environment in which the coins are stored.

66Tbird · August 21, 2009 12:53AM

Just another example.

PerryHall · August 21, 2009 1:27AM

<< For those who believe all red cents are unnatural, please explain the few hoards (Randall, for example, of matron heads, and the hoard of 1855's) that have red cents and are well-documented as such? >>

How long ago were the Randall coins discovered and in the hands of many generations of collectors?

MikeInFL · August 21, 2009 1:30AM

<< 

<< For those who believe all red cents are unnatural, please explain the few hoards (Randall, for example, of matron heads, and the hoard of 1855's) that have red cents and are well-documented as such? >>

How long ago were the Randall coins discovered and in the hands of many generations of collectors? >>

A few (seven?) kegs were found just after the Civil War in an old train station in Georgia. While many were brown and/or spotted, a number of them were full red.

Here is a post I made some time ago on the topic.

supergem · August 21, 2009 1:46AM

Here's an earlier thread on this same topic of "original" red copper.

BBN · August 21, 2009 9:08AM

MikeinFL or anyone. I see this cent in your thread and seen a couple on ebay dated 1820 with the full circle diecrack. I'm not a Lg cent expert. Did a lot of these 1820 cents get minted with this diecrack?

Edscoin · August 21, 2009 11:17AM

<< MikeinFL or anyone. I see this cent in your thread and seen a couple on ebay dated 1820 with the full circle diecrack. I'm not a Lg cent expert. Did a lot of these 1820 cents get minted with this diecrack?

>>

This is an N 13 which is an R-1. It is one of the more common varietys of the 1820. So yes a lot of them have this die crack.

lkeigwin · August 21, 2009 11:36AM

What does the pattern of color on this large cent suggest? I bought it a while back because I liked it and it struck me as original but I have no idea of its history. It is in a PCGS holder, 64RB.
Lance.

jmski52 · August 21, 2009 11:39AM

How many different years had this circular die crack? I guess I should look it up.

Raybo · August 21, 2009 11:45AM

<< I thought that dipped copper comes out pink and is easily detected by the slabbing services. >>

I agree with you Perry, I like my copper brown anyways!

BillJones · August 21, 2009 11:08PM

<< What does the pattern of color on this large cent suggest? I bought it a while back because I liked it and it struck me as original but I have no idea of its history. It is in a PCGS holder, 64RB.
Lance.

>>

I would characterize this as an informed speculation, but that large cent was probably stored in an envelope that was made of paper that had a small amount of sulfur. The areas where the coin came in contact with the paper toned brown while the protected areas retained their original red color. This is the reason why better quality coin envelops are made with sulfur free paper.

lkeigwin · August 22, 2009 3:02AM

Thanks, Bill. I value your opinion and it makes perfect sense.
Lance.

FinallyHere · August 24, 2009 6:20AM

I'll bet even Dorkkarl likes this coin.

WinLoseWin · August 24, 2009 10:17AM

Here are some Large Cents that I suspect are original red.

The 1842 on the cover from this 1983 auction looks pretty original. It was called MS-67 full red in this auction and sold for $3,850. Thought it may have been the same one I had seen in person in an old PCGS-65 Red holder when there was only one slabbed. But in looking at the Heritage archives, seems that one is different from the 1983 auction example.

The PCGS coin I saw was definitely original and must have been the one sold at Heritage. (Also noticed the PCGS coin appeared twice, once in a 1st generation holder and then it was cracked out and auctioned 1 year later in a new holder at twice the price.)

-------------------------------

Never saw this 1813 but it looks awfully original. Sold for a then record $69,000 in 2000. Seem to recall a thread noting that a member here did or does own it.

-------------------------------

Here is a link to just one of many bright ones in the upcoming Goldberg auction graded PCGS-65 Red. Some of the early copper experts called it 66 and 68. Those experts might appreciate contact from some of the board members who could educate them that this color is not possible and that the coin must have been dipped. I'm sure they wouldn't mind being schooled about the proper color of early copper.

http://www.mkjassociates.com/cgi-bin/ilgvulot.pl?site=1&sale=54&lot=1151

WinLoseWin · August 24, 2009 11:03AM

Here are some other favorites of Large Cents that I suspect are original red.

Saw the obverse of this 1807/6 at Jay Parrino's table at some point. It sure looked like real red in person. He once had the 1793 Wreath Cent PCGS Specimen-68 Red, but it was not there and may have been sold before. Would like to see what the 93 looks like or even a good picture.

-------------------------------

Here is the plate from a 1981 auction that included a hoard of seven 1821 Large Cents with considerable red. The catalog notes that they had recently been discovered in Boston. They sold mostly in the $4,000 to $6,000 range with a low of $2,310 and a high of $7,700. I think one auctioned somewhere in the last few years for over $50,000.

The four 1804 half cents in the picture are also noted as having been a recent discovery "during the razing of one of the historic buildings in Boston's financial district". Guessing that the 1821's were from the same source.

-------------------------------

Here is one of my all time favorite copper pics from the March 1981 Garett Collection Part 4 where it brought a record $200,000 which stood for many years. Don't think this has ever showed up again. Bet it would bring over a million if it did.

dorkkarl · August 25, 2009 11:48AM

<< I'll bet even Dorkkarl likes this coin.

>>

you ain't kidding!!! OUTSTANDING!!!

now what alot of you NEED to notice about TRULY RED TOTALLY ORIGINAL NEVER BEEN DIPPED RED is like , you see all those tiny little carbon spots & minor discoloration? those are SUPPOSED to be there. when you see a so-called "red" copper that has oil-slick surfaces & glossy, glassy surface texture, you got to start being a little concerned. that is a sign that, MOST LIKELY, someone "helped" the coin. "helping" processes almost always will remove carbon spots, etc. ie, carbon spots are your friend, if you see them, then you know w/90% certainty that you got a true original, not some lubed up piece of red jelly.

great coin!!!

K S

dorkkarl · August 25, 2009 11:55AM

<< For those who believe all red cents are unnatural, please explain the few hoards (Randall, for example, of matron heads, and the hoard of 1855's) that have red cents and are well-documented as such? >>

this is a false myth that has been passed around for decades. the FACT is that the randall hoard contained VERY FEW TRULY FULL RED cents, 1816 - 1820. what is often mentioned as being "red" is actually what we would call red-brown. virtually every single coin in the hoard had spots, plus the coins that were caked on the outside of the kegs were FUSED TOGETHER due to moisture.

again, when i say RED, i am going by what the o.p. asked about, "truely original Red Large Cent"

1 more thing, the randall hoard is actually poorly documented, much of the "documentation" was conjectured or "remembered" decades after the hoard was discovered.

K S

MikeInFL · August 25, 2009 12:18PM

So I guess the Randall Hoard examples of these fourteen 1820's aren't truly red?

Heritage Link to RD 1820s

Ken, Nobody suggested that all the Randall Hoard coins are all RD, and what you wrote was true (and included in the link I posted above, by the way), but the fact remains that there are RD examples of the Randall Hoard and the 1855 hoard that have very a very distinctive look and are truly red by most numismatic standards.

Respectfully...Mike

MikeInFL · August 25, 2009 12:22PM

<< MikeinFL or anyone. I see this cent in your thread and seen a couple on ebay dated 1820 with the full circle diecrack. I'm not a Lg cent expert. Did a lot of these 1820 cents get minted with this diecrack?

>>

Short answer, a lot of the surviving population (particularly mint state) have this die crack -- because it was one of (if not the) most popular coins (N-13) in the Randall Hoard. Remember, without this hoard, this date would be a very hard date to come by -- like the other 1820's dates -- but with the Randall Hoard they are relatively common.

As an aside, that coin also has the very typical spotted blue-green toning of the BN examples from the Randall Hoard as well....Mike

dorkkarl · August 25, 2009 8:05PM

<< So I guess the Randall Hoard examples of these fourteen 1820's aren't truly red?

Heritage Link to RD 1820s

Ken, Nobody suggested that all the Randall Hoard coins are all RD, and what you wrote was true (and included in the link I posted above, by the way), but the fact remains that there are RD examples of the Randall Hoard and the 1855 hoard that have very a very distinctive look and are truly red by most numismatic standards.

Respectfully...Mike >>

link does not work

again, yes, there ARE some full red coppers, there were A FEW red coins in the randall hoard, but MANY MANY MANY coins from the randall hoard have been "helped", & by a humonguous margin, the so-called "red" randall coins are r&b coins.

gimme the link, i will check em out

K S

MikeInFL · August 25, 2009 10:20PM

Ken,

Sorry for the bad link. Anyway, here's an 1818:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1127&Lot_No=77#

Here are a few 1820s (all but 1 are RD):

http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results.php?N=51+790+231+307+762&Ne=47&D=1820&Ntx=mode+matchall&Ns=&Nf=&Ntt=1820&x=0&y=0&Ntk=SI_Titles

<< again, yes, there ARE some full red coppers, there were A FEW red coins in the randall hoard, but MANY MANY MANY coins from the randall hoard have been "helped", & by a humonguous margin, the so-called "red" randall coins are r&b coins. >>

FWIW, I agree with the above (and always did -- just think you misunderstood the post you originally replied to).

Take care...Mike

coindudeonebay · August 25, 2009 10:51PM

Isn't there a PCGS MS67RD 1793 Chain cent? I'd absolutely love to see pictures of that!

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 3:13AM

<< here's an 1818:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1127&Lot_No=77# >>

hey mike, that is a classic example of a slab marked "rd" for a coin that IS NOT RED! maybe i am too much of a stickler, but to me, RED means NO BROWN. that coin looks about 10%+ or more brown to me. although, looks like a nice original

other link did'nt work, kinda blew up my browser tab actually.

K S

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 4:08AM

<< 

<< here's an 1818:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1127&Lot_No=77# >>

hey mike, that is a classic example of a slab marked "rd" for a coin that IS NOT RED! maybe i am too much of a stickler, but to me, RED means NO BROWN. that coin looks about 10%+ or more brown to me. although, looks like a nice original

other link did'nt work, kinda blew up my browser tab actually.

K S >>

Do a search for N-13 1820 large cents in RD. You should find 14 examples, 13 of which were slabbed as RD and virtually every one was instantly identifiable as Randall Hoard large cents...Mike

p.s. good point about the 1818, but I hesitate to say anything based only on pics.

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 4:10AM

See next post. Sorry.

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 4:18AM

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 6:03AM

taking a look at those, it is obvious to me that AT LEAST 2 of those are doctor-ed. (look for fingerprints).

plus, i would not call a single 1 of those ORIGINAL RED

K S

MikeInFL · August 26, 2009 6:38AM

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of doctoring to include fingerprints (if I've understood you correctly) and what constitutes a RD large cent.

Regardless, thanks for the discussion....Mike

dorkkarl · August 26, 2009 11:04AM

<< I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the definition of doctoring to include fingerprints (if I've understood you correctly) and what constitutes a RD large cent.

Regardless, thanks for the discussion....Mike >>

you might not of understood what i meant. when you see those grey fingerprints like on a couple of those coins, i can tell you exactly what happened w/ dead-on accuracy. those coins were dipped, found to be too "bright", then dellers darkener was used to then them down. & where you those prints is where someone was holding the coin w/ the dellers on his thumb, while using his other hand to apply to the rest of the coin. how do i know? been there , done that enough times to know that i'm 100% correct.

if you wanna know if a copper coin is TRULY ORIGINAL, carbon spots = good, grey fingerprints = bad

K S

BBN · August 26, 2009 11:18AM

<< 

<< MikeinFL or anyone. I see this cent in your thread and seen a couple on ebay dated 1820 with the full circle diecrack. I'm not a Lg cent expert. Did a lot of these 1820 cents get minted with this diecrack?

>>

Short answer, a lot of the surviving population (particularly mint state) have this die crack -- because it was one of (if not the) most popular coins (N-13) in the Randall Hoard. Remember, without this hoard, this date would be a very hard date to come by -- like the other 1820's dates -- but with the Randall Hoard they are relatively common.

As an aside, that coin also has the very typical spotted blue-green toning of the BN examples from the Randall Hoard as well....Mike >>

As a matter of fact I just bought one of these tonight off of ebay from Hannigan Coins. Real nice MS64BN

Can someone please post a picture of truely original Red Large Cent.

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