An ounce of plastic worth $100,000.00
rays
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Lot 30 May Long Beach Heritage Signature sale. Described as follows:
1796 1/2 C No Pole--Scratched, Burnished--NCS. Fine Details. Price realized: $74,500.
Now for sale for $175,000 from Harry Laibstain, described as follows:
1796 NO POLE 1/2 C PCGS F12
]&sink)
1796 1/2 C No Pole--Scratched, Burnished--NCS. Fine Details. Price realized: $74,500.
Now for sale for $175,000 from Harry Laibstain, described as follows:
1796 NO POLE 1/2 C PCGS F12
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People are free to buy what they like, and they like plastic.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It sure would be interesting to know who purchased it from Heritage @ LB.
<< <i>If this coin has been sold raw in a Stack's auction, for example, would it have brought more or less than it did in an NCS holder? >>
An interesting question. My own opinion is that it would have brought more.
I have seen this more than once and makes me really look at coins closely in NCS holders.
<< <i>
It sure would be interesting to know who purchased it from Heritage @ LB. >>
I don't know, but my first guess would be the current owner(s).
<< <i>
<< <i>If this coin has been sold raw in a Stack's auction, for example, would it have brought more or less than it did in an NCS holder? >>
An interesting question. My own opinion is that it would have brought more. >>
If that was true, it would suggest that the PCGS plastic isn't "worth" $100,000, but that the NCS plastic might have a negative value.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Would this coin be considered a problem coin and, if so, why did PCGS grade it? >>
I guess it depends on who is doing the "considering".
<< <i>Would this coin be considered a problem coin and, if so, why did PCGS grade it? >>
I wonder how many times it took to get it into a PCGS holder...
An interesting question. My own opinion is that it would have brought more. >>
If that was true, it would suggest that the PCGS plastic isn't "worth" $100,000, but that the NCS plastic might have a negative value.
I disagree. Yes, the bidders on the raw coin might have figured the coin differently than they would have if it had been in an NCS holder. But that's not because they assign a negative value to the plastic. (Everyone knows a coin can be cracked from a holder.) It's because they are - to various degrees - ignorant, unskilled and gutless.
Edited to say that I call them "ignorant, unskilled and gutless" with all due respect.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>Would this coin be considered a problem coin and, if so, why did PCGS grade it? >>
I guess it depends on who is doing the "considering". >>
What if CCU is doing the considering?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I sold him this no pole a while ago.
<< <i>I disagree. Yes, the bidders on the raw coin might have figured the coin differently than they would have if it had been in an NCS holder. But that's not because they assign a negative value to the plastic. >>
I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.
I would venture to guess that a lot of collectors would have simply scratched a coin in an NCS holder off their "watch list" completely, without evaluating it at all. In other words, they don't consciously assign a negative value to it, they simply make a big X through it in their catalog.
CCU - Exactly. Which means we're in complete agreement!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
<< <i>Lot 30 May Long Beach Heritage Signature sale. Described as follows:
1796 1/2 C No Pole--Scratched, Burnished--NCS. Fine Details. Price realized: $74,500.
Now for sale for $175,000 from Harry Laibstain, described as follows:
1796 NO POLE 1/2 C PCGS F12
CCU and early copper experts -- Is this tolerance for scratches on early copper typical for PCGS?
2) Re selling the coin raw, a number of EAC people prefer such coins this way. If you know your diagnostics, a raw old copper shouldn't bother you, because there's definitely a market for these raw coins.
3) Some people will resubmit a coin until it gets the grade they want. They probably put provisions into their estate to continue to cut checks for resubmitting said coin(s) in the event said coin(s) don't upgrade while they are still alive.
4) It doesn't matter what a seller asks for a coin. What matters is for what price it actually sells, and to a lesser extent, how much time it takes to make the sale.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I crossed a NCS encapsulated coin into a PCGS holder ... nowhere near the value of the coin at issue of course. Sometimes, someone knowledgeable in a series can see such a coin and realize that it was inappropriately encapsulated as damaged. If the no pole is worth that much in a PCGS F12 holder, then I would say Laibstain ripped a coin at auction and is not ripping anyone off with the coin. Accordingly, he should get a "YOU SUCK" ... but in a good way. An ounce of plastic doesn't make it worth $100k more ... a knowledgeable dealer pulling it out of an incorrectly labelled piece of plastic and changing public perception about the coin does.
No matter how you describe it, rationalize it, etc the coin is now worth $100K more in a PCGS slab than it was out of a PCGS slab.
<< <i>No matter how you describe it, rationalize it, etc the coin is now worth $100K more in a PCGS slab than it was out of a PCGS slab. >>
And, no matter how many times you say it the coins value beyond $74,500 has yet to be determined.
Look at it like this... I buy a house crappy house in a bad section of town for $74,500. But, I bought the house believing that in the near future the surrounding area would be undergoing a great deal of investor renovation. Turns out I was right - and as soon as the surrounding restoration was complete I put my house on the market for $175,000.
Is my house magically now worth $175,000 just because it is now in a renovated neighborhood and its what I set the price at? No, its current value is completely unknown but with a likely floor of around $75,000.
Neither Harry nor PCGS will determine that coins value - the market will.
<< <i>
<< <i>No matter how you describe it, rationalize it, etc the coin is now worth $100K more in a PCGS slab than it was out of a PCGS slab. >>
And, no matter how many times you say it the coins value beyond $74,500 has yet to be determined.
Look at it like this... I buy a house crappy house in a bad section of town for $74,500. But, I bought the house believing that in the near future the surrounding area would be undergoing a great deal of investor renovation. Turns out I was right - and as soon as the surrounding restoration was complete I put my house on the market for $175,000.
Is my house magically now worth $175,000 just because it is now in a renovated neighborhood and its what I set the price at? No, its current value is completely unknown but with a likely floor of around $75,000.
Neither Harry nor PCGS will determine that coins value - the market will. >>
I don't profess to know how much Harry will get for it, either by direct sale or auction if need be. My guess is much closer to $175K than $75K.
<< <i>Is this tolerance for scratches on early copper typical for PCGS? >>
In my experience, yes -- for rare/expensive coins such as the one pictured -- and the rarer the coin, the more tolerance.
Harry is a very knowledgeable dealer in early copper, and he also takes calculated risks in his business from time to time. He saw an opportunity to buy a coin that should/would go into a "straight graded" PCGS holder, as he felt PCGS would see the coin differently than NCS did. And -- he was right, in this case.
My guess is that the NCS holder kept the value down in that auction. There is less competition these days for buying a $75,000 coin in a "problem" holder than there was a year or two ago. How many of you folks (collectors and dealers both) are in the market for $75k coins in NCS holders? No too many, I would venture to guess.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>I viewed that coin when it was in the NCS holder, and I have seen it in the PCGS slab. That coin is exactly as it was when it was in the Heritage auction in the NCS holder.
Harry is a very knowledgeable dealer in early copper, and he also takes calculated risks in his business from time to time. He saw an opportunity to buy a coin that should/would go into a "straight graded" PCGS holder, as he felt PCGS would see the coin differently than NCS did. And -- he was right, in this case.
My guess is that the NCS holder kept the value down in that auction. There is less competition these days for buying a $75,000 coin in a "problem" holder than there was a year or two ago. How many of you folks (collectors and dealers both) are in the market for $75k coins in NCS holders? No too many, I would venture to guess. >>
Absolutely, and I hope no one mistakes my valuation comments as bashing the coin, the dealer, or anyone else. I am simply pointing out that just because the exact same coin now resides in a holder that markets the coin as "problem free" and the current owner upped the price $100,000 does not mean that the coin has magically gained $100K in value. It is the same grade coin, with the same scratch and sporting the same color. When time tells all, if the current owner comes out ahead, then he made a shrewd buy by knowing the market and marketing the coin better than the last owner.
For what it is worth I, contrary to the masses here, am of the ilk that doesn't believe in the term "problem coin". A coin is whatever a coin is. And no plastic, dealer or collector can convince me that any coin is not worth owning due to something they dictate as a "problem".
Who is John Galt?
the coin was bought at auction and sent in just once, grading fine 15 the first time at PCGS
it was not sent in by me but I did have a financial interest
the coin is definately not burnished
After examining the coin it was believed it had a decent to high probability of grading
It does have a scratch but its an old scratch that blends nicely into the coin and should not keep the coin from grading
PCGS has a policy of trying to grade great rarities unless the damage is significant. This scratch is not significant.
Check out some 94 dollars for instance. This is a very special very rare coin. However I also believe had this been a 1795 half cent, from an ncs holder in an economy package the outcome would have been the same and the value would have doubled, similar to this outcome.
I believe PCGS net graded the coin for the scratch and I think the details are more like vf20.
This was correct in my opinion, and clearly that of PCGS.
the coin is exactly as it was. Nothing has been changed.
regarding the price. No one knows exactly what a coin like this is worth and since it was essentially upgraded from a no grade to a pcgs holder
the value has increased greatly
it was a gamble to buy this coin and this one paid off
many do not.
it may not be worth 175k or it may. I think I probably would be willing to discount it some,
but feel the price is a near market value estimate.
If there would have been another bidder it would have gone higher
this was not the final bid in my book.
however the NCS holder did eliminate some bidders and cut down on competition.
Some bidders, or buyers will not buy coins that are currently no grades and gamble they might be gradable,
so there is less competition and the coins could end up going cheap like this one did.
if it had been in the auction in a PCGS holder, as it is now, you can rest assured it would have brought more.
this is no different than any coin that gets purchased and then gets upgraded.
the value equation is dramtically altered
a 1900-0 half dollar in 64 is worth 5-6k but in 65 its worth 12k......
its hard to say if this was a one point upgrade like the previous example but I think the point is fair.
Coins are not always in the right holder.
sometimes they are overgraded
sometimes they are undergraded, its not an exact science
This coin belongs in a PCGS holder.
I invite anyone to come and see this coin in person at the whitman Phili show. The original description was extremly harsh.
Our table numbers are 721 and 723. See for yourself.
The coin will be there if it is not sold.
I`m open to discussion on the price but its not going to relate to the cost
The coin has been re-evaluated in a very positive way....
there are only a handful of these coins in PCGS holders
this is the second I have ever handled in almost 30 years and I think its one of the great coins in the US catalog
Call me today and I`ll make you a deal or trade on this coin
its well worth adding to your little sister collection.
some of the best buys I ever made we when someone else was taking a windfall profit
HARRY
www.hlrc.com
harry@hlrc.com
800-869-1869
Full Time Coin Dealer
since 1980.
Harry Laibstain Rare Coins
I would like to see that coin in hand. I bought a coin from Harry at ANA but was moving quickly and didn't ask what he had in 6 figures....I wish I had seen the photo before reading the description. My first thought is that it does not look burnished. On closer inspection I want to see it in hand. rays, I trust your opinion on copper a lot. You never said whether you think it looks burnished or not.
As for the value, perryhall's post says it all. There are many collectors who just won't even look at a "problem" coin. Once you remove that word, the value goes way up. It isn't the PCGS plastic that is worth $100k, it is the removal of the leprosy...er...I mean...the term "problem".
--Jerry
Anybody else wanna argue with Harry?
I'll give a "You Suck" on that one!
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is this tolerance for scratches on early copper typical for PCGS? >>
In my experience, yes -- for rare/expensive coins such as the one pictured -- and the rarer the coin, the more tolerance. >>
I agree. I recently looked at an 18th century half dollar in pcgs plastic with a similar scratch. --Jerry
<< <i>Now... that's a lurker.
Anybody else wanna argue with Harry?
I'll give a "You Suck" on that one!
Steve >>
Harry doesn't lurk. I discussed this with him at LA. He gets e-mails from friends whenever he or one of his coins is the subject here. I was gonna say that the reason he got it into PCGS plastic the first time is because he threatened PCGS that he would carve his initials into it if they didn't grade it.
<< <i>I agree with the CRO post above and was gonna make one similar.
I would like to see that coin in hand. I bought a coin from Harry at ANA but was moving quickly and didn't ask what he had in 6 figures....I wish I had seen the photo before reading the description. My first thought is that it does not look burnished. On closer inspection I want to see it in hand. rays, I trust your opinion on copper a lot. You never said whether you think it looks burnished or not.
As for the value, perryhall's post says it all. There are many collectors who just won't even look at a "problem" coin. Once you remove that word, the value goes way up. It isn't the PCGS plastic that is worth $100k, it is the removal of the leprosy...er...I mean...the term "problem".
--Jerry >>
I bid on this coin because I did not think it was burnished. Whether PCGS would grade this coin was another matter. All the TPGs want important coins in their holders. For this reason, some leeway is allowed regarding problems. There is a PCGS XF40 1796 with pole half cent with worse scratches all around the periphery.
I would like to relate another story about the power of the slab:
About ten years ago a 1796 with pole came up for sale by Stacks. It was a very nice XF40, and had a mint-made planchet clip of about 5%. I bid on it, and lost it to Tony Terranova. A few weeks later I saw the coin (still raw) in Tony's case at Long Beach for $25K (a couple of thousand more than he paid for it). I passed. The next day, Tony had it in a PCGS AU55 holder, and I bought it for $29,000. You couldn't see the clip through the slab!
So I essentially paid $4000 for the slab. This turned into one of my favorite all time coins.
K S
Why would it be any more of an issue after it sells? Two consenting adults, and all that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think the most imortant is whether the NCS holder lowered the final price or the PCGS raised its value. I think both.
These are good times to be looking for stuff to fall throught he cracks at auctions.
I've seen some very long threads where someone takes a coin out of a NCS/ANACs holder, sells it raw on ebay for big money, and gets crucified here. To be honest I can't see the difference.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i> why is this a issue before the coin even actually sells???
Why would it be any more of an issue after it sells? Two consenting adults, and all that. >>
cuz WE DON'T KNOW YET WHAT IT'LL ACTUALLY SELL FOR!
what if someone offers 82738.92 & it is accepted?
& he does deal.
K S
Edited to add:
This coin makes British copper look like a bargain- from several different perspectives
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Wake me up when it sells. Until then this thread title is still stupid.
<< <i>Wake me up when it sells. Until then this thread title is still stupid. >>
bingo
K S
<< <i>So everyone seems to be saying that PCGS will take a coin out of a problem holder and put it in one of their problem-free holders just to get a rare coin in their slab. >>
No, not everyone is saying that. Some people who actually looked at the coin thought that it was not burnished and therefore should have been 'gradeable'.
<< <i>
<< <i>So everyone seems to be saying that PCGS will take a coin out of a problem holder and put it in one of their problem-free holders just to get a rare coin in their slab. >>
No, not everyone is saying that. Some people who actually looked at the coin thought that it was not burnished and therefore should have been 'gradeable'. >>
Wow - I'd be po'd if I was the original submitter to NCS.