<< <i>In this case, NGC isn't deciding what is moral, they are complying with a small vocal minority of their customers' existing impression of what is moral. >>
I'm with Dan and Coinpictures on this one... I just get the feeling that folks have a double-standard opinion when it comes to the German Peoples. Most think, "well it's the Germans, they deserve it". Not all Germans were Hitlers....
When I shared with her some of the stranger Goetz medal designs, I got an unexpected negative reaction.
She warned me that some Germans are insane. And that you would do well to avoid them entirely. What is it about an insane German that was specifically different than any other insane human? I don't know, I did not pursue the question. Her verbal warning shocked me.
She obviously had an instant negative reaction to viewing Goetz medals. And I didn't show her _this_ one.
It was a very bizarre and unexpected warning. It haunts me, coming from my own mother.
Yet, i'll agree that the Goetz artwork is disturbing enough that i'm not certain I want to dig too deeply.
<< <i>I'm with Dan and Coinpictures on this one... I just get the feeling that folks have a double-standard opinion when it comes to the German Peoples. Most think, "well it's the Germans, they deserve it". Not all Germans were Hitlers.... >>
I think NGC is afraid of being associated with racism, not Germany. And by arbitrarily refusing to holder one medal, they have made it more likely someone will come after them the next time they slab something controversial.
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
<< <i>I disagree with this opinion, mostly. I do agree that the TPG needs to protect its brand, but by protecting a brand doesn't necessarily mean deciding what is moral or not. Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine. I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone. Book burning comes to mind. I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture. I personally think that it is not the TPG's place to decide what is moral, but to honestly educate their customers that the said item is genuine and graded correctly. If you were to tear apart any and all series, there would be many coins that would not be holdered, for one moral reason or another. Anything from the CSA, tokens from the Liberia colony of the 1800's, Russian coinage from the cold war, Nazi coinage, etc... JMHO. -Dan >>
After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. Like I pointed out before, there should not be any considerations as to what should be seen or collected, than are to allow for future generations to decide what it is that they want to collect. It should also be the consideration that history is in play with what one collects for any said series. To forget why a certain group of people, state, nation, or any other form of coin/token/medal producing entity produced there certain series would be a travesty to numismatics as a hobby. You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself. -Dan >>
Dan,
My post involved:
1 - questions about what this Goetz piece was.
2 - an opinion that a company has a duty to its investors (private or publicly traded being irrelevant) to protect its brand.
Where was the religious fervor religion? What exactly was asinine? I think we have a simple disagreement. Since I have nothing better to do just now, and like you, I have a certain, "inability to keep my thoughts to myself," let's chat.
I think you and I stand upon a bit of common ground, primarily your statement, "You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself."
After that we diverge. I'm impressed with your self-assured nature when explaining to an industry what it's place in society is. "Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine." I always enjoy hearing people explain to companies how to run their businesses. Life is always much simpler for those who don't actually have to run the business.
I assert it is not you or me that makes the rules of what roll a particular company or industry should play in our society (other than voting with my wallet). I believe, as you stated, "that the TPG needs to protect its brand,..." However, that does leave room for the company to refuse to participate in any activity that they feel will adversely affect their position in the market place. The company has to be able to stay in business in the context of their market place.
This sort of thing crops up with free speech all the time. Just because a person CAN say a thing doesn't mean it is always in their best interests to do so.
A private company is not a utopian machine bereft of market forces. A TPG doesn't have to slab something simply because the thing exists or is part of history. First and foremost a TPG is in business to make money for the owners. That's the way business works.
You state, "I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility(sic) of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone."
I offer, the TPG isn't in the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, but they are in the business of producing a product that their market will accept. If they feel a particular series of numismatic material isn't going to be widely accepted in the market place, because the market place or customer base has already a notion of moral or cultural accepability of the series, the company is simply allowing market forces to influence policy that optimize the brand's acceptance in the market place.
In this case, NGC isn't deciding what is moral, they are complying with their customer's existing impression of what is moral.
You state, "I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture." That maybe, there are already 100's of TPGs out there. Most are discredited. Although CAC seems to be making a go of it. I guess the market place for ideas is alive and well. Wait one while I check the horizon for billowing smoke from the mountains of books on fire... tick... tick... tick... Nope, no billowing smoke. What was your reference to "book burning" about?
TPG's aren't there to cater to your ideas of fairness. They are there to make money. The marketplace has rules. The successful firms have been the best at figuring out the rules of the market place as it exists today. >>
Okay. As a business owner myself, I can understand where you are coming from to the effect that someone cannot dictate to me how I run my business. But, in the same breath, my customers know what I will or will not do for them, based upon our conversations. I simply let them know, when I meet them, what I am willing to do and what I am not willing to do for them. As for TPG's, I would assume that they would have something more concrete. I would think that they would have some sort of written covenant which they would follow that would allow the unacknowledged or sorts to follow when any doubt be placed in their wake. If I am wrong then please shoot me down to hell, but God forbid these TPG's having some sort of cryptic covenant to follow that would allow for someone, God forbid(again), to actually have the ability to decide what they deem to be fit or unfit to sleep inside their plastic tombs. If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap.
I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. You might as well be living in Iran or any other country that does not allow it if you think I should keep my thoughts to myself . Do not forget this fact! When you start to limit what people can see or say, then you are, by default, no better than the countries that disallow freedom of expression. This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. Please look at Cacheman's link into this medal for the history. As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will.
<< <i>I'm with Dan and Coinpictures on this one... I just get the feeling that folks have a double-standard opinion when it comes to the German Peoples. Most think, "well it's the Germans, they deserve it". Not all Germans were Hitlers.... >>
Certainly the last part of your statement is very true, and history has largely overlooked the many Germans that paid the price for their beliefs, there were quite a few others like Oskar Schindler that rescued even one person. There is an ancient Jewish proverb, "He who saves the life of one man saves the whole world".
<< <i>Does it really matter? Considering it was produced by a known medal maker, this really is a stupid argument. -Dan >>
I don't think it is a stupid argument; I don't care if he is a known artist; he may be "known" to you but not to me; and it is matter whether the medal was produced by the goverment or an individual, heck, a medal shows an errected p*nis produced privately would be less controversal than the same medal issued by the mint.
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. >>
The issue here is NGC's refusal to slab this medal, I don't see how it is related to "The Freedom of Speech." Let me put it in a simpliest form: how can TPG's decision affect your "Freedom of Speech?" By the way, I would rather not having "The Freedom of Speech" when one uses it to promote hatre & racism.
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
Well, when it comes to the point when your kids understand the nature of an errected p*nis and interested in junior medals that promote hatre & racism, there is nothing you can do!
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. You might as well be living in Iran or any other country that does not allow it if you think I should keep my thoughts to myself . Do not forget this fact! When you start to limit what people can see or say, then you are, by default, no better than the countries that disallow freedom of expression. This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. Please look at Cacheman's link into this medal for the history. As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. >>
I don't think that's exactly right. I don't think this argument is about collecting. I think the argument, as indicated in the thread title, is whether NGC should holder the medal.
<< <i>If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap. >>
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference. * Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
As for helpful comments like:
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. >>
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. You might as well be living in Iran or any other country that does not allow it if you think I should keep my thoughts to myself . Do not forget this fact! When you start to limit what people can see or say, then you are, by default, no better than the countries that disallow freedom of expression. This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. Please look at Cacheman's link into this medal for the history. As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. >>
I don't think that's exactly right. I don't think this argument is about collecting. I think the argument, as indicated in the thread title, is whether NGC should holder the medal.
<< <i>If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap. >>
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference. * Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
As for helpful comments like:
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. >>
Meds can help. >>
Yes, Zeebob, I did actually did see what NGC SAYS they holder, before your enlightening post. As for the meds, I find it funny how when someone disagrees with the way you prudes think and you ASSUME that what they say is "CRAZY" you bring meds into the picture. I guess that is your way of saying that this is the way we should deal with people that simply think for themselves and not use the finger to wind test! You crack me up.!
<< <i>Yes, Zeebob, I did actually did see what NGC SAYS they holder, before your enlightening post. As for the meds, I find it funny how when someone disagrees with the way you prudes think and you ASSUME that what they say is "CRAZY" you bring meds into the picture. I guess that is your way of saying that this is the way we should deal with people that simply think for themselves and not use the finger to wind test! You crack me up.! >>
I'm glad we both are getting amusement out of the conversation.
My favorite bit is how you read into the posts that I'm a "prude" or particularly religious. We haven't discussed nor have I offered my opinion on the content of the medal other than it is a very interesting piece of history. In all honesty, in a week, I'm pretty sure I'll have forgotten our exchanges here, but I will remember the name Goetz and when and why these medals were made. As surprising as it may sound to you, if I ran across this medal, in nice condition and at a reasonable price, I might purchase it. So very prudish I know.
While you might be "cracked up" at my "meds" comment. I'm equally amused that you assumed my comments about corporate policies were based in religion. Or that it was a good idea to dismiss my opinion as asinine - perhaps we should all bow before your superior intellect and well reasoned objective free speech.
Do you happen to know if the medal in question falls into the NGC criteria for slabbing? Namely:
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference. * Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
Do you want to discuss if these are reasonable policies? Or if they are as the wiseman once said (six posts above) "crap?" I'll be happy to drop the sarcasm and have a discussion if you would do the same.
"Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?"
It wasn't returned for not falling into one of these catagories...it was sent back because it was "objectionable subject matter". They could have easily said it didn't fit within their stated parameters but they didn't.
<< <i>"Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?"
It wasn't returned for not falling into one of these catagories...it was sent back because it was "objectionable subject matter". They could have easily said it didn't fit within their stated parameters but they didn't. >>
Does the coin have material on it that in and of itself is objectionable.... YES.... when applied with the history that goes with it, does it become unobjectionable...YES... Would I let my 18 month old, when he gets to the age of understanding, look at the coin without explanation... NO... Would I let him look or own it with explanation of its meaning.... YES. Should NGC not slab this coin? I say they are dumb for not slabbing it but it's their loss of business to a TGP like ANACS. We can debate morals and ethics all day long. Where we cross the line is name calling and bashing each other. We are all better than this. I know we have bad days and sometimes it feels great to unleash on someone. I'll be honest that a few folks on here rub me the wrong way and I have even been the subject of some bashing. Do I respond? I try not to. What I do is type out the post that I would like to put on here and then sit and read it 3 times. Usually by the end of the 3rd reading I realize that I probably shouldn't post that and I just delete it and move on. We all love coins and we all have our own opinions. Zee, I don't agree with your opinon on some of these things but that is what makes this world great... we are all different and that makes it interesting. I don't know what is taught about the German people and history in Australia (Yes I am assuming you are in Australia by your post) so I don't know how you look at history or what you know of history. The history of Germany is a touchy subject for many so when you come into it with little knowledge of it or the medals/coins that accompany it, you are bound to open a can of worms. Asking about it can be as bad as commenting on the situation itself.
<< <i>Does the coin have material on it that in and of itself is objectionable.... YES.... when applied with the history that goes with it, does it become unobjectionable...YES... Would I let my 18 month old, when he gets to the age of understanding, look at the coin without explanation... NO... Would I let him look or own it with explanation of its meaning.... YES. Should NGC not slab this coin? I say they are dumb for not slabbing it but it's their loss of business to a TGP like ANACS. We can debate morals and ethics all day long. Where we cross the line is name calling and bashing each other. We are all better than this. I know we have bad days and sometimes it feels great to unleash on someone. I'll be honest that a few folks on here rub me the wrong way and I have even been the subject of some bashing. Do I respond? I try not to. What I do is type out the post that I would like to put on here and then sit and read it 3 times. Usually by the end of the 3rd reading I realize that I probably shouldn't post that and I just delete it and move on. We all love coins and we all have our own opinions. Zee, I don't agree with your opinon on some of these things but that is what makes this world great... we are all different and that makes it interesting. I don't know what is taught about the German people and history in Australia (Yes I am assuming you are in Australia by your post) so I don't know how you look at history or what you know of history. The history of Germany is a touchy subject for many so when you come into it with little knowledge of it or the medals/coins that accompany it, you are bound to open a can of worms. Asking about it can be as bad as commenting on the situation itself.
My favorite saying is, "It is what it is..." >>
Turns out I'm in the United States. Just happen to like the Aussie pennies in proof.
I'm happy to ask questions. A fella never learns anything without asking questions.
And I don't have a problem if people disagree with me. I do get annoyed with personal barbs and will eventually toss a couple back. Ormandh and I just exchanged a couple of PMs and I think agreed to disagree. I do understand where he's coming from regarding the issue of "free speech."
I also think there is a far cry between "we won't slab it because we don't like it" (objectionable subject matter) and "we won't slab it because it isn't one of the series we slab." The former is clearly subjective censorship and is bad policy. I'm fine with the latter.
Zee, point taken. I am sorry for calling you prudish or bringing religion into the mix. I do hope that the powers that be will reconsider the bad decision they have made by not holdering this medal. But, more importantly, I hope that coins, medals, etc... can be seen as a just a part of history and not just a vile, disgusting, obscene, or an adoration of a time/thinking which has been long and past. Collectors' as a whole, I feel, are beyond this and collect for the historical aspect or the beauty of a series(as they see fit) and not for any anti-semitic views or for any sexual reasons(unless of course you are deviant). Thanks for putting up with my rants on this issue. I am done. Keep on collecting! -Dan
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference. * Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories? >>
I might be mistaken, but I believe that other Goetz medals have been slabbed by NGC in the past (Cacheman did make a reference to them being misattributed, among other problems).
If so, then that suggests that the medal was refused, not because it did not fall into the listed classifications, but simply because of the subject matter.
NGC has now set a precedent by setting itself up as a moral arbiter of acceptable subject matter. Other people can now justifiably complain that they have been "offended" by something else that NGC slabbed. Maybe that will have a negative effect on the NGC "brand".
Paging Madelyn Murray O'Hair (or someone like her) ---- Newsflash ---- NGC has slabbed coins with the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST", which is profoundly offensive to atheists. Are you gonna take that laying down?
"Think of the Press as a great keyboard on which the Government can play" – Joseph Goebbels
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
I appreciate the symbolism depicted on many of Goetz’s medals, and would collect them myself. As Scott clearly illustrated (at least to my satisfaction), simply looking at the medal (or a photo) and passing judgment without knowing the intent of the piece is illogical. To me, having / exploring that knowledge is the basis for having a collection in the first place. I also collect 3rd Reich (yes, NAZI) coins. Personally, I don’t care who likes them or who doesn’t. If you like them, buy them & show them…if you don’t, then don’t, but don't attempt to impose your views on others. If you don’t like me because I like them, I don't give a rip. I also don’t give a rip whether NGC would/should slab such a medal, as I personally would never make such a request…slab a medal? Not me. JMO -Preussen
"Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
Inspired by cacheman's passion and amazing website, I have begun venturing into the Goetz medallic work along with my other vices.
By the way - what a phenomenal website and supporting reference material, imagery and cataloging by Scott. Karl Goetz - The Goodman Collection
I will post medals as I get them myself under a separate thread.
I did read this thread again and thought that I would post the medal design in question. In my opinion, this is art, subject to viewer discretion. If you do not approve of this one, simply block the channel
TalerUniverse.com is a curated numismatic project dedicated to the silver talers, crowns, and medals of the Habsburg Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, spanning the 16th–18th centuries. The collection emphasizes historically significant issues, rare mint varieties, and high-grade NGC/PCGS examples, presented with detailed historical context, scholarly references, and high-resolution photography. TalerUniverse aims to serve both as a private collection showcase and a growing reference resource for collectors, researchers, and students of early-modern European coinage.
Very nice direction to go into, Zohar. Drop cacheman a line through his website, I'm sure he probably has some duplicates he might be persuaded to part with. Looking forward to your new acquisitions and write-ups!
Comments
<< <i>In this case, NGC isn't deciding what is moral, they are complying with a small vocal minority of their customers' existing impression of what is moral. >>
Fixed.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
When I shared with her some of the stranger Goetz medal designs, I got an unexpected negative reaction.
She warned me that some Germans are insane. And that you would do well to avoid them entirely.
What is it about an insane German that was specifically different than any other insane human? I don't know, I did not pursue the question. Her verbal warning shocked me.
She obviously had an instant negative reaction to viewing Goetz medals. And I didn't show her _this_ one.
It was a very bizarre and unexpected warning. It haunts me, coming from my own mother.
Yet, i'll agree that the Goetz artwork is disturbing enough that i'm not certain I want to dig too deeply.
<< <i>I'm with Dan and Coinpictures on this one... I just get the feeling that folks have a double-standard opinion when it comes to the German Peoples. Most think, "well it's the Germans, they deserve it". Not all Germans were Hitlers.... >>
I think NGC is afraid of being associated with racism, not Germany. And by arbitrarily refusing to holder one medal, they have made it more likely someone will come after them the next time they slab something controversial.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
<< <i>I disagree with this opinion, mostly. I do agree that the TPG needs to protect its brand, but by protecting a brand doesn't necessarily mean deciding what is moral or not. Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine. I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone. Book burning comes to mind. I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture. I personally think that it is not the TPG's place to decide what is moral, but to honestly educate their customers that the said item is genuine and graded correctly. If you were to tear apart any and all series, there would be many coins that would not be holdered, for one moral reason or another. Anything from the CSA, tokens from the Liberia colony of the 1800's, Russian coinage from the cold war, Nazi coinage, etc... JMHO. -Dan >>
After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. Like I pointed out before, there should not be any considerations as to what should be seen or collected, than are to allow for future generations to decide what it is that they want to collect. It should also be the consideration that history is in play with what one collects for any said series. To forget why a certain group of people, state, nation, or any other form of coin/token/medal producing entity produced there certain series would be a travesty to numismatics as a hobby. You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself. -Dan >>
Dan,
My post involved:
1 - questions about what this Goetz piece was.
2 - an opinion that a company has a duty to its investors (private or publicly traded being irrelevant) to protect its brand.
Where was the religious fervor religion? What exactly was asinine? I think we have a simple disagreement. Since I have nothing better to do just now, and like you, I have a certain, "inability to keep my thoughts to myself," let's chat.
I think you and I stand upon a bit of common ground, primarily your statement, "You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself."
After that we diverge. I'm impressed with your self-assured nature when explaining to an industry what it's place in society is. "Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine." I always enjoy hearing people explain to companies how to run their businesses. Life is always much simpler for those who don't actually have to run the business.
I assert it is not you or me that makes the rules of what roll a particular company or industry should play in our society (other than voting with my wallet). I believe, as you stated, "that the TPG needs to protect its brand,..." However, that does leave room for the company to refuse to participate in any activity that they feel will adversely affect their position in the market place. The company has to be able to stay in business in the context of their market place.
This sort of thing crops up with free speech all the time. Just because a person CAN say a thing doesn't mean it is always in their best interests to do so.
A private company is not a utopian machine bereft of market forces. A TPG doesn't have to slab something simply because the thing exists or is part of history. First and foremost a TPG is in business to make money for the owners. That's the way business works.
You state, "I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility(sic) of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone."
I offer, the TPG isn't in the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, but they are in the business of producing a product that their market will accept. If they feel a particular series of numismatic material isn't going to be widely accepted in the market place, because the market place or customer base has already a notion of moral or cultural accepability of the series, the company is simply allowing market forces to influence policy that optimize the brand's acceptance in the market place.
In this case, NGC isn't deciding what is moral, they are complying with their customer's existing impression of what is moral.
You state, "I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture." That maybe, there are already 100's of TPGs out there. Most are discredited. Although CAC seems to be making a go of it. I guess the market place for ideas is alive and well. Wait one while I check the horizon for billowing smoke from the mountains of books on fire... tick... tick... tick... Nope, no billowing smoke. What was your reference to "book burning" about?
TPG's aren't there to cater to your ideas of fairness. They are there to make money. The marketplace has rules. The successful firms have been the best at figuring out the rules of the market place as it exists today. >>
Okay. As a business owner myself, I can understand where you are coming from to the effect that someone cannot dictate to me how I run my business. But, in the same breath, my customers know what I will or will not do for them, based upon our conversations. I simply let them know, when I meet them, what I am willing to do and what I am not willing to do for them. As for TPG's, I would assume that they would have something more concrete. I would think that they would have some sort of written covenant which they would follow that would allow the unacknowledged or sorts to follow when any doubt be placed in their wake. If I am wrong then please shoot me down to hell, but God forbid these TPG's having some sort of cryptic covenant to follow that would allow for someone, God forbid(again), to actually have the ability to decide what they deem to be fit or unfit to sleep inside their plastic tombs. If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap.
<< <i>I'm with Dan and Coinpictures on this one... I just get the feeling that folks have a double-standard opinion when it comes to the German Peoples. Most think, "well it's the Germans, they deserve it". Not all Germans were Hitlers.... >>
Certainly the last part of your statement is very true, and history has largely overlooked the many Germans that paid the price for their beliefs, there were quite a few others like Oskar Schindler that rescued even one person. There is an ancient Jewish proverb, "He who saves the life of one man saves the whole world".
<< <i>Does it really matter? Considering it was produced by a known medal maker, this really is a stupid argument. -Dan >>
I don't think it is a stupid argument; I don't care if he is a known artist; he may be "known" to you but not to me; and it is matter whether the medal was produced by the goverment or an individual, heck, a medal shows an errected p*nis produced privately would be less controversal than the same medal issued by the mint.
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. >>
The issue here is NGC's refusal to slab this medal, I don't see how it is related to "The Freedom of Speech." Let me put it in a simpliest form: how can TPG's decision affect your "Freedom of Speech?"
By the way, I would rather not having "The Freedom of Speech" when one uses it to promote hatre & racism.
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
Well, when it comes to the point when your kids understand the nature of an errected p*nis and interested in junior medals that promote hatre & racism, there is nothing you can do!
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. You might as well be living in Iran or any other country that does not allow it if you think I should keep my thoughts to myself . Do not forget this fact! When you start to limit what people can see or say, then you are, by default, no better than the countries that disallow freedom of expression. This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. Please look at Cacheman's link into this medal for the history. As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. >>
I don't think that's exactly right. I don't think this argument is about collecting. I think the argument, as indicated in the thread title, is whether NGC should holder the medal.
<< <i>If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap. >>
I called the nice people at NCG. They provided a link to their policies. NGC's list of what medals and tokens they slab is found here.
The NGC site says under Germany:
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference.
* Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
As for helpful comments like:
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. >>
Meds can help.
<< <i>
<< <i>I want everyone to know that where I am coming from is purely from the collectors' standpoint. I am, by no means a racist nor do I condone it. I do, however, believe in "The Freedom of Speech." and will fight for it no matter who agrees or disagrees. You might as well be living in Iran or any other country that does not allow it if you think I should keep my thoughts to myself . Do not forget this fact! When you start to limit what people can see or say, then you are, by default, no better than the countries that disallow freedom of expression. This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. Please look at Cacheman's link into this medal for the history. As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>This argument is about collecting a medal that was produced 90 years ago and not yesterday. >>
I don't think that's exactly right. I don't think this argument is about collecting. I think the argument, as indicated in the thread title, is whether NGC should holder the medal.
<< <i>If NGC or PCGS has something in writing to this effect, then I would like to see it. Otherwise, it is crap. >>
I called the nice people at NCG. They provided a link to their policies. NGC's list of what medals and tokens they slab is found here.
The NGC site says under Germany:
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference.
* Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
As for helpful comments like:
<< <i>As for the adult nature of this medal, grow up. Education is key. Stop being so prudish and teach your kids or the internet will. >>
<< <i>After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. >>
Meds can help. >>
Yes, Zeebob, I did actually did see what NGC SAYS they holder, before your enlightening post. As for the meds, I find it funny how when someone disagrees with the way you prudes think and you ASSUME that what they say is "CRAZY" you bring meds into the picture. I guess that is your way of saying that this is the way we should deal with people that simply think for themselves and not use the finger to wind test! You crack me up.!
<< <i>Yes, Zeebob, I did actually did see what NGC SAYS they holder, before your enlightening post. As for the meds, I find it funny how when someone disagrees with the way you prudes think and you ASSUME that what they say is "CRAZY" you bring meds into the picture. I guess that is your way of saying that this is the way we should deal with people that simply think for themselves and not use the finger to wind test! You crack me up.!
I'm glad we both are getting amusement out of the conversation.
My favorite bit is how you read into the posts that I'm a "prude" or particularly religious. We haven't discussed nor have I offered my opinion on the content of the medal other than it is a very interesting piece of history. In all honesty, in a week, I'm pretty sure I'll have forgotten our exchanges here, but I will remember the name Goetz and when and why these medals were made. As surprising as it may sound to you, if I ran across this medal, in nice condition and at a reasonable price, I might purchase it. So very prudish I know.
While you might be "cracked up" at my "meds" comment. I'm equally amused that you assumed my comments about corporate policies were based in religion. Or that it was a good idea to dismiss my opinion as asinine - perhaps we should all bow before your superior intellect and well reasoned objective free speech.
Do you happen to know if the medal in question falls into the NGC criteria for slabbing? Namely:
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference.
* Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?
Do you want to discuss if these are reasonable policies? Or if they are as the wiseman once said (six posts above) "crap?" I'll be happy to drop the sarcasm and have a discussion if you would do the same.
It wasn't returned for not falling into one of these catagories...it was sent back because it was "objectionable subject matter". They could have easily said it didn't fit within their stated parameters but they didn't.
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>"Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories?"
It wasn't returned for not falling into one of these catagories...it was sent back because it was "objectionable subject matter". They could have easily said it didn't fit within their stated parameters but they didn't. >>
ah, well then, that is messed up. No question.
My favorite saying is, "It is what it is..."
<< <i>Does the coin have material on it that in and of itself is objectionable.... YES.... when applied with the history that goes with it, does it become unobjectionable...YES... Would I let my 18 month old, when he gets to the age of understanding, look at the coin without explanation... NO... Would I let him look or own it with explanation of its meaning.... YES. Should NGC not slab this coin? I say they are dumb for not slabbing it but it's their loss of business to a TGP like ANACS. We can debate morals and ethics all day long. Where we cross the line is name calling and bashing each other. We are all better than this. I know we have bad days and sometimes it feels great to unleash on someone. I'll be honest that a few folks on here rub me the wrong way and I have even been the subject of some bashing. Do I respond? I try not to. What I do is type out the post that I would like to put on here and then sit and read it 3 times. Usually by the end of the 3rd reading I realize that I probably shouldn't post that and I just delete it and move on. We all love coins and we all have our own opinions. Zee, I don't agree with your opinon on some of these things but that is what makes this world great... we are all different and that makes it interesting. I don't know what is taught about the German people and history in Australia (Yes I am assuming you are in Australia by your post) so I don't know how you look at history or what you know of history. The history of Germany is a touchy subject for many so when you come into it with little knowledge of it or the medals/coins that accompany it, you are bound to open a can of worms. Asking about it can be as bad as commenting on the situation itself.
My favorite saying is, "It is what it is..." >>
Turns out I'm in the United States. Just happen to like the Aussie pennies in proof.
I'm happy to ask questions. A fella never learns anything without asking questions.
And I don't have a problem if people disagree with me. I do get annoyed with personal barbs and will eventually toss a couple back. Ormandh and I just exchanged a couple of PMs and I think agreed to disagree. I do understand where he's coming from regarding the issue of "free speech."
I also think there is a far cry between "we won't slab it because we don't like it" (objectionable subject matter) and "we won't slab it because it isn't one of the series we slab." The former is clearly subjective censorship and is bad policy. I'm fine with the latter.
Like I said to Ormandh - no harm no foul.
Cheers,
Bob
Todd
<< <i>I called the nice people at NCG. They provided a link to their policies. NGC's list of what medals and tokens they slab is found here.
The NGC site says under Germany:
* Balloon, Zepplin & Aircraft medals, as listed in Kaiser reference.
* Tokens, as listed in Schimmel references.
Does the Goetz piece fall into one of these categories? >>
I might be mistaken, but I believe that other Goetz medals have been slabbed by NGC in the past (Cacheman did make a reference to them being misattributed, among other problems).
If so, then that suggests that the medal was refused, not because it did not fall into the listed classifications, but simply because of the subject matter.
NGC has now set a precedent by setting itself up as a moral arbiter of acceptable subject matter. Other people can now justifiably complain that they have been "offended" by something else that NGC slabbed. Maybe that will have a negative effect on the NGC "brand".
Paging Madelyn Murray O'Hair (or someone like her) ---- Newsflash ---- NGC has slabbed coins with the motto "IN GOD WE TRUST", which is profoundly offensive to atheists. Are you gonna take that laying down?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
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By the way - what a phenomenal website and supporting reference material, imagery and cataloging by Scott. Karl Goetz - The Goodman Collection
I will post medals as I get them myself under a separate thread.
I did read this thread again and thought that I would post the medal design in question. In my opinion, this is art, subject to viewer discretion. If you do not approve of this one, simply block the channel
TalerUniverse.com is a curated numismatic project dedicated to the silver talers, crowns, and medals of the Habsburg Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, spanning the 16th–18th centuries. The collection emphasizes historically significant issues, rare mint varieties, and high-grade NGC/PCGS examples, presented with detailed historical context, scholarly references, and high-resolution photography. TalerUniverse aims to serve both as a private collection showcase and a growing reference resource for collectors, researchers, and students of early-modern European coinage.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
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