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NGC refused to holder a Goetz medal.
TwoKopeiki
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I was pretty surprised to find out from my brother that NGC refused to holder a Goetz piece due to its graphic nature, deeming it inappropriate to be displayed in their holder. My brother is outraged - what do you guys think?
The medal in question is extreme black shame. (website curtesy of Cacheman). Speaking of Scott, he did a nice write-up about this medal that I remember reading in 2007 that can be found here.
The medal in question is extreme black shame. (website curtesy of Cacheman). Speaking of Scott, he did a nice write-up about this medal that I remember reading in 2007 that can be found here.
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Their side is; it is our holders and we will decide what goes in them....
Collector's Side; its a piece of history (whether it be coin or medal) and deserves the respect that other coins/medals receive...
Now my question is this, do they holder coins and medals with Nazi markings? I would think that these would be more offensive to some out there then your brothers medal. Coins and medals are part of history, it is what it is. Freedom of speech and freedom of collecting what pieces of history you want to collect.
Now, does NGC have shares on the stock market? If they are solely a private company I see them getting away with this but if they have stock floating out there I would like to think that the stock holders would be against this censorship.
Todd
However, that is a medal of clear historical importance by an artist whose work is known and collected worldwide. In my opinion they have made a mistake by not holdering, and if the story is accurate, I have lost a significant degree of respect for NGC.
--Severian the Lame
They all have their own "STANDARDS".
FOR SALE Items
<< <i>There is another prominent coin site that I visit that will not let me show any coins from my BBL collection. They Have actually pulled threads containing examples.
>>
I can imagine the site you are talking about, and yes, it is a no visit site. A place where you can get a slap for posting a coin with an exposed mammary.
<< <i>All of this stuff has historical importance, and I question the motives of companies that tout collecting as a way to preserve history for future generations while allowing their personal thoughts or feelings to enter the equation. Sure, nazi stuff, KKK medals, etc. are offensive to most, but then again they are a part of history that should be preserved and talked about, if for no other reason than so the past is not repeated. When a group writes off a part of our past (good or bad), to me they move into the category of those not really interested in history. >>
What's frustrating isn't that they have standards, it's that the standards aren't consistently applied. NGC's decision seems arbitrary at best if they will slab other things that might be offensive.
Todd
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
With regard to the subject matter? They are just ignorant. When they do cast, the medals are misattributed and that is the least of the problems.
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>I guess if I were a person of Jewish decent, African American heritage, or of strict conservative values; I would have issues with some of the coins out there. I don't let too many things get under my skin like that but then again, we are all different. I do think that NGC is a great company when it comes to grading world coins and I am a bit surprised that they wouldn't grade/holder this piece. I do think that a few fervent phone calls would probably fix the situation, or if you could find one of these already slabbed by them to prove that they have done it in the past. Just a note to all on these forums, I do collect German coins and medals and make no apologies for that. I do not however support the ideas and actions that are set forth on the coins or the people that made the coins. Everyone here I consider a friend and in no way want to degrade anyone.
Todd >>
Nicely said. I agree, given that my family is mostly Ukrainian, we are conscientious about Nazi and Soviet symbols, given that both treated the Ukrainians like chattel. However one of the dilemmas that comes up in collecting, I collect notes with attractive females on them, and one note that is famous is the Nazi German 20 RM from 1939, I had to really think on adding that one to my collection. But I equate the note for what it really represented, a stolen design that was meant for an unissued Austrian note. It represents what the Nazis were all about, thievery, bigotry and arrogant pride.
After the war Austria finally issued a similar note, in a different colour scheme, but along the same lines to take their original design back:
History cannot be erased, here in Ukraine we still have lots of statues of Lenin, while in Russia they pulled most of them down. I like to think that Lenin here in the main square reminds us of the oppressors of the past, and that they are still a threat if you forget about the past.
<< <i>I am not an NGC fan, but I agree with their decision. If I have kids, I would not want them to ever see that medal. >>
Then don't show it to them. However your personal aesthetics should not prevent me from having my coins certified.
This is beyond moronic.
(and no, I don't own any of the medals in question, although I along with many others on this board own German pieces from the Nazi era, U.S. pieces from the Confederate era, Russian pieces from the Stalin era, etc. What's next, confiscating Confederate stamps and covers and burning them? History be damned in the name of political correctness run amok? *ptui* )
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
DPOTD
We already know what happens when events are swept under the rug.
karlgoetzmedals.com
committed under Ghengiz Khan.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
<< <i>I refuse to collect coins from Mongolia until they apologize for the war crimes
committed under Ghengiz Khan. >>
<< <i>Think what you may but every major, and many minor, museum around the world have this medal in their cabinets...including Israel. If you don't like it then don't look at it but it was a legitimate artistic expression based on a politically historical event.
We already know what happens when events are swept under the rug. >>
This one is on my want list. Anybody got a nice one for sale?
<< <i>
<< <i>Think what you may but every major, and many minor, museum around the world have this medal in their cabinets...including Israel. If you don't like it then don't look at it but it was a legitimate artistic expression based on a politically historical event.
We already know what happens when events are swept under the rug. >>
This one is on my want list. Anybody got a nice one for sale? >>
I'm pretty sure Roman's brother wants to sell his......but it won't be slabbed...
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Think what you may but every major, and many minor, museum around the world have this medal in their cabinets...including Israel. If you don't like it then don't look at it but it was a legitimate artistic expression based on a politically historical event.
We already know what happens when events are swept under the rug. >>
This one is on my want list. Anybody got a nice one for sale? >>
I'm pretty sure Roman's brother wants to sell his......but it won't be slabbed...
My brother is a bit obsessed with slabbing his collection, but I doubt that would be enough of a reason to sell one of the few Goetz pieces he owns.
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>If I was running a business, I wouldn't want that type of material associated with me in any way either. >>
How do you feel about Michelangelo’s “David”, Botticelli's "Birth of Venus", and the Venus de Milo?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media" - William Colby, former CIA director
<< <i>If I was running a business, I wouldn't want that type of material associated with me in any way either. >>
I see it as a piece of beautiful art, not porn or misogyny. To each his own, of course.
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated.
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
Well said zeebob!!!
I also would like some sort of info...
~
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
I disagree with this opinion, mostly. I do agree that the TPG needs to protect its brand, but by protecting a brand doesn't necessarily mean deciding what is moral or not. Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine. I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone. Book burning comes to mind. I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture. I personally think that it is not the TPG's place to decide what is moral, but to honestly educate their customers that the said item is genuine and graded correctly. If you were to tear apart any and all series, there would be many coins that would not be holdered, for one moral reason or another. Anything from the CSA, tokens from the Liberia colony of the 1800's, Russian coinage from the cold war, Nazi coinage, etc... JMHO. -Dan
edited for an s I omitted on purposes.
Personally, I don't see it as a big deal if NGC or PCGS refuses to slab something. The former is a privately held company, the latter is publicly traded; both have strong reputations to uphold and probably see this as a way to do so.
I think any of us would be a little perturbed if something similar were to happen to our homeland, whether you feel it was deserved or not. The extreme war reparation demands and schedule, French behavior like the above, and the extreme inflation of the Weimar Period set the stage for Hitler to get a foothold fifteen years later.
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. Like I pointed out before, there should not be any considerations as to what should be seen or collected, than are to allow for future generations to decide what it is that they want to collect. It should also be the consideration that history is in play with what one collects for any said series. To forget why a certain group of people, state, nation, or any other form of coin/token/medal producing entity produced there certain series would be a travesty to numismatics as a hobby. You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself. -Dan
And what are the other two symbols on the reverse (side with 'Germania')? One looks like a broken harp maybe? The other is the pyramid eye. Anyone know why those images appear and what they represent in the germanic cultural context of the day?
Given the context described, the medal certainly bears great historic significance as protest speech. Very interesting! Thank you for the the insight and history!
I think what was done to Germany was ridiculous in terms of renumeration and agree that it led to some of the conditions that fostered the development of Nazis featuring Hitler. IMO, outrage at the terms of treaty justified but think this medal may have gone over the top; nothing new in this as the Romans at their height of empire used PR in similar fashion to gain support for foreign wars and conquests.
Germans were not immune to such activities in their own forays (ask the Eastern Europeans and Russians about the Nazi conquests and what happened during them), so maybe this is a topic that concerns them and was an "issue" for them.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The so-called "Rheinland bastard" were mulatto children fathered by the French Colonials and German women (whether by rape or consensual). You should be able to oogle the term and find out more.
karlgoetzmedals.com
karlgoetzmedals.com
It's a Germania's lyre and it symbolizes divine harmony...now broken. The 'eye' is the eye of God.
TPG's should slab it even though I don't believe in slabbing, they shouldn't assume the position of the morality police.
karlgoetzmedals.com
<< <i>Come on guys!!! I want to get a definitive answer from you guys as to whether you agree with or not to the question at hand. Should a TPG holder this type of medal!!? >>
If you put yourself in the business of authenticating historic artifacts of that type, such as coins or medals, you shouldn't be concerned about the content.
As a private company, NGC is certainly free to decide what to slab or not. But I don't send coins to them so they can approve the message on them. I send coins to them for an expert opinion on authenticity and condition. That's all the slab should represent -- it does them no good to suggest it represents approval of the message on the coin or medal.
<< <i>Come on guys!!! I want to get a definitive answer from you guys as to whether you agree with or not to the question at hand. Should a TPG holder this type of medal!!? >>
No TPG should ever be in the business of censoring the material it authenticates/holders. It's a slippery slope, and justifications can always be found to exclude virtually anything in the name of political correctness. What's next, nudes on coins being excluded? PCGS being picketed by the ACLU because it encapsulates coins that have "In God We Trust" on them?
In my mind it's an all or nothing proposition, and TPGs have no business trying to police what is or is not morally correct.
That being said, a private company can certainly choose to do anything it wants. That doesn't mean it should.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>
<< <i>I read the information at the links. But I gotta say, I really don't understand the symbolism behind these medals. Call me dense, but if one of you could either post or PM a sort of explaination of who issued these (Nazis? Klan? ACLU?) and exactly what they were trying to say, it would be helpful to me. I honestly can't tell if these were supposed to degrade women, blacks or if they were issued by a more civil rights oriented organization and were trying to denigrate other organizations or political groups (Nazi's or Klan). Very odd symbolism on these pieces. Honestly, my first impression when I saw the items was "how very Jr. High School."
The images are graphic, but at least for me, the message is lost. I just don't get it.
For me, I guess the issue of a TPG holdering the item is pretty easy. The privately held firm can, and should, make policies that protect it's brand. I don't fault NGC in this case.
Certainly mint issued coinage falls into a different catagory that private-commerce tokens (trade, tax or brothel tokens or Casino tokens), and that probably is different than medals. As a matter of brand protection, a TPG probably shouldn't slab certain types of items, lest the brand become known for the promotion of a class of items.
Even if the item in question were issued by a government, and had historical value, a TPG could reasonably not slab it. The policy, quite reasonably in my opinion, might be "slab only mint issued, monitinized coinage from the damn Nazi's." I can imagine that all manner of other tokens or medals might have been issued by the Nazi's that, while historic, aren't necessarily something that a TPG would want in their holders.
Being a big PCGS fan, I'll like nothing better than to jest about NGC as the Nazi holder ("I saw a really great barber dime at the FUN show, but it was in a Nazi holder so I gave it a pass.") But NGC is better than that. Although I do like to refer to the History Channel(tm) as the Nazi Channel since they used to always seem to be stuck running WWII shows...
Anyway, that's my opinion on the holdering policy issue. Any light you folks could shed on the tokens in the OP would be appreciated. >>
<< <i>I disagree with this opinion, mostly. I do agree that the TPG needs to protect its brand, but by protecting a brand doesn't necessarily mean deciding what is moral or not. Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine. I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone. Book burning comes to mind. I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture. I personally think that it is not the TPG's place to decide what is moral, but to honestly educate their customers that the said item is genuine and graded correctly. If you were to tear apart any and all series, there would be many coins that would not be holdered, for one moral reason or another. Anything from the CSA, tokens from the Liberia colony of the 1800's, Russian coinage from the cold war, Nazi coinage, etc... JMHO. -Dan >>
After posting the above post and careful consideration for my inability to keep my thoughts to myself, that is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. Keep your religious views to yourself and, furthermore, focus more on the hobby. Like I pointed out before, there should not be any considerations as to what should be seen or collected, than are to allow for future generations to decide what it is that they want to collect. It should also be the consideration that history is in play with what one collects for any said series. To forget why a certain group of people, state, nation, or any other form of coin/token/medal producing entity produced there certain series would be a travesty to numismatics as a hobby. You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself. -Dan >>
Dan,
My post involved:
1 - questions about what this Goetz piece was.
2 - an opinion that a company has a duty to its investors (private or publicly traded being irrelevant) to protect its brand.
Where was the religious fervor religion? What exactly was asinine? I think we have a simple disagreement. Since I have nothing better to do just now, and like you, I have a certain, "inability to keep my thoughts to myself," let's chat.
I think you and I stand upon a bit of common ground, primarily your statement, "You cannot pick and choose the situations that make up history, you can only change the future that will be history, otherwise history may repeat itself."
After that we diverge. I'm impressed with your self-assured nature when explaining to an industry what it's place in society is. "Simply put, a TPG is there to grade coinage, tokens, or anything numismatic related to insure the general public that it is graded properly or that it is indeed genuine." I always enjoy hearing people explain to companies how to run their businesses. Life is always much simpler for those who don't actually have to run the business.
I assert it is not you or me that makes the rules of what roll a particular company or industry should play in our society (other than voting with my wallet). I believe, as you stated, "that the TPG needs to protect its brand,..." However, that does leave room for the company to refuse to participate in any activity that they feel will adversely affect their position in the market place. The company has to be able to stay in business in the context of their market place.
This sort of thing crops up with free speech all the time. Just because a person CAN say a thing doesn't mean it is always in their best interests to do so.
A private company is not a utopian machine bereft of market forces. A TPG doesn't have to slab something simply because the thing exists or is part of history. First and foremost a TPG is in business to make money for the owners. That's the way business works.
You state, "I think that it is bad business to get into the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, especially when it affects the collectibility(sic) of any said issue. It is perfectly fine to disagree with the series for one reason or another, but it is not okay to decide which series someone should have slabbed or not for morality purposes alone."
I offer, the TPG isn't in the business of deciding what was morally produced or not, but they are in the business of producing a product that their market will accept. If they feel a particular series of numismatic material isn't going to be widely accepted in the market place, because the market place or customer base has already a notion of moral or cultural accepability of the series, the company is simply allowing market forces to influence policy that optimize the brand's acceptance in the market place.
In this case, NGC isn't deciding what is moral, they are complying with their customer's existing impression of what is moral.
You state, "I will end this by saying that if this company does not fill a niche, another company will come into the picture." That maybe, there are already 100's of TPGs out there. Most are discredited. Although CAC seems to be making a go of it. I guess the market place for ideas is alive and well. Wait one while I check the horizon for billowing smoke from the mountains of books on fire... tick... tick... tick... Nope, no billowing smoke. What was your reference to "book burning" about?
TPG's aren't there to cater to your ideas of fairness. They are there to make money. The marketplace has rules. The successful firms have been the best at figuring out the rules of the market place as it exists today.
<< <i>Come on guys!!! I want to get a definitive answer from you guys as to whether you agree with or not to the question at hand. Should a TPG holder this type of medal!!? >>
Was it issued privately (like Moonlight Mint) or under the authority of a recognized government?
Your help understanding the medal has been really informative. Thank you!
Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>Come on guys!!! I want to get a definitive answer from you guys as to whether you agree with or not to the question at hand. Should a TPG holder this type of medal!!? >>
Was it issued privately (like Moonlight Mint) or under the authority of a recognized government? >>
Does it really matter? Considering it was produced by a known medal maker, this really is a stupid argument. -Dan