Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter

Trevmo · July 5, 2009 6:08PM

Which one do you think is a better player considering the years they played and the type of hitters they fielded against? Ozzie Smith has more Gold Gloves and All-Star Games but Derek Jeter looks to have better numbers all around.

Trevmo

milbroco · July 5, 2009 8:21PM

Personally, I think Jeter is extremely over rated. I would take Smith.
Bob

slantycouch · July 5, 2009 9:30PM

<< Personally, I think Jeter is extremely over rated. I would take Smith.
Bob >>

Overrated as a hitter, fielder, or both?

bigwilli · July 5, 2009 10:05PM

Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense

jackstraw · July 5, 2009 10:17PM

Jeter all day. I am not sure Ozzie is on my short list.

cwazzy · July 5, 2009 11:08PM

<< Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>

agreed.

slantycouch · July 5, 2009 11:18PM

<< Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>

Hard to refute that.

eyebone · July 5, 2009 11:20PM

What bigwilli said. IMO Jeter is almost as good a fielding SS as as was Ozzie; maybe not as spectacular, but still very good defensively. Conversely, Ozzie was nowhere near Jeter at the plate. Plus Jeter also has a bit of pop in his bat if needed....Ozzie never did.

eyebone

prscott933 · July 5, 2009 11:26PM

<< What bigwilli said. IMO Jeter is almost as good a fielding SS as as was Ozzie; maybe not as spectacular, but still very good defensively. Conversely, Ozzie was nowhere near Jeter at the plate. Plus Jeter also has a bit of pop in his bat if needed....Ozzie never did.

eyebone >>

1985 NLCS = pop when needed

eyebone · July 5, 2009 11:43PM

Interestingly, both men have officially been to the plate about 9,400 times in their careers (Ozzie a little less and Jeter a little more). In those AB Jeter has amassed 216 HR and Ozzie only 28. Quick math tells me that Jeter had a bit more pop in his bat. Though I do suppose that solitary HR Ozzie hit during his 28 AB in the '85 NLCS was well above his career HR to AB ratio.

Eyebone

Trevmo · July 6, 2009 12:01AM

Anyone know the official count of Jeter's Gold Gloves? Ozzie has 13 and it's hard to argue that he was a great shortstop. Don't get me wrong, Jeter is pretty good as well but I think he gets a little more hype just from being on the Yankees.

cwazzy · July 6, 2009 12:08AM

Jeter has 3.

1960toppsguy · July 6, 2009 12:21AM

If Jeter played for the Seattle Mariners, would you know his name?

Trevmo · July 6, 2009 12:32AM

Who knows? You would think if he was that great of a fielding shortstop that he would have more GG's. I know his bat was a little louder than Ozzie's but only 3 GG's for Jeter??? I still think it's just a popularity thing with the Yankees. Also, potential 'band-waggon' fans that only root for the "best" teams in baseball for the year might win him a few more popularity points than Oz.

fiveniner · July 6, 2009 12:34AM

Jeter hands down.There are also other shortstops who were in my opinion just as good as Ozzie or better but were never given any consideration mainly because they were not the show boat type.Examples Trammel,Visquel,Marty Marion.Visquel is still playing however all three mentioned should have a place in Cooperstown.

Trevmo · July 6, 2009 12:39AM

I agree that Marion should have made it. I think he should have a seat in Cooperstown for sure.

ripkenintheminors · July 6, 2009 12:47AM

This got me thinking so I did a little research.

First off, you can't measure defensive ability by gold gloves. I base this on the fact that if you take Ozzie's lowest fielding percentage that resulted in a gold glove you will find that Jeter had 6 seasons with a higher fielding percentage that did not result in a gold glove.

Initially I thought that Smith was clearly the better defensive SS but the numbers are closer than I expected. Granted, Jeter has not played his final game yet.

Smith: .978
Jeter: .975

bvc · July 6, 2009 12:55AM

<< Personally, I think Jeter is extremely over rated. I would take Smith.
Bob >>

Yeah, he's pretty overrated. He has more hits than Pete Rose at the same point in his career too, but Rose was a stiff...

ripkenintheminors · July 6, 2009 12:55AM

<< If Jeter played for the Seattle Mariners, would you know his name? >>

In 13 full seasons he has 2,523 hits so I think so.

slantycouch · July 6, 2009 1:23AM

<< 

<< If Jeter played for the Seattle Mariners, would you know his name? >>

In 13 full seasons he has 2,523 hits so I think so. >>

Yeah that would even bring him attention in Milwaukee.

eyebone · July 6, 2009 1:32AM

Barry Larkin anybody? Very underrated IMO due to all though years in Cincy, but an MVP, 14-time AS, a career .295 hitter and .968 fielder. Sort of got overshadowed by some others but all he seemed to do for 10-15 years was play solid and hit .300.

Eyebone

BunchOBull · July 6, 2009 1:33AM

I'm curious as Ozzie's range factor at 13 seasons vs. Jeters. I don't know for sure, but compared against their respective contemporaries, I'd guess Jeter has seen a much sharper decline.

larryallen73 · July 6, 2009 2:06AM

Great debate. Without knowing more I would say Ozzie. However, as I read all the information provided here there clearly is a debate to be had.

TomGshotput · July 6, 2009 2:39AM

<< Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>

Always like to see it when someone goes out on a limb

Just because a player is overrated does not mean he isn't good. Jeter has done more to help the Yankees than Smith did to help his teams

slantycouch · July 6, 2009 2:50AM

<< 

<< Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>

Always like to see it when someone goes out on a limb

Just because a player is overrated does not mean he isn't good. Jeter has done more to help the Yankees than Smith did to help his teams >>

I don't disagree with you, but was that statement really going out on a limb?

TomGshotput · July 6, 2009 2:57AM

Yes

Trevmo · July 6, 2009 3:02AM

I still think Ozzie's 13 Gold Gloves have to count for something. Even if someone thinks Jeter is a better shortstop, I don't think he has made that many incredible plays in his career that would warrant Gold Gloves. I like players that can make great plays. Jeter definitely has a better swing than Ozzie (as you can see by the numbers) did but I think Ozzie has him on defensive shortstop skills and All-Time spectacular plays.

RoarIn84 · July 6, 2009 3:15AM

Jeter rocks because he was in Crocodile Dundee 2, making it far superior to part 1

but i gotta go with Ozzie. you can't beat those backflips and those sideburns.....

slantycouch · July 6, 2009 3:19AM

<< Yes >>

Haha well argued.

Trevmo · July 6, 2009 3:23AM

Yeah, you can't beat them back flips. They were pretty cool to watch at Busch Stadium when I was a kid. And for the sideburns, who knows what he was thinkin' when he grew them things. I bet he could only do the back flip when he shaved them off. They made him more aerodynamic, thus allowing him to complete the full rotation of the actual back flip. Oh, and don't forget the huge fro that he had. That thing had to weigh him down quite a bit, too!

Stone193 · July 6, 2009 6:00AM

I would like to have a perfectly centered PSA 9 Oz please.

mike

ripkenintheminors · July 6, 2009 6:27AM

<< I still think Ozzie's 13 Gold Gloves have to count for something. Even if someone thinks Jeter is a better shortstop, I don't think he has made that many incredible plays in his career that would warrant Gold Gloves. I like players that can make great plays. Jeter definitely has a better swing than Ozzie (as you can see by the numbers) did but I think Ozzie has him on defensive shortstop skills and All-Time spectacular plays. >>

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on the gold glove award itself. Yes Ozzie was a good SS but Cal Ripken, Jr., had a higher career fielding percentage and only won 2 gold gloves. In addition, Cal even had a year where he had a .996 fielding percentage at SS and did not win the gold glove for the year. Meanwhile, Ozzie won the '88 gold glove with a .972 fielding percentage and 22 errors.

fiveniner · July 6, 2009 8:36AM

<< Barry Larkin anybody? Very underrated IMO due to all though years in Cincy, but an MVP, 14-time AS, a career .295 hitter and .968 fielder. Sort of got overshadowed by some others but all he seemed to do for 10-15 years was play solid and hit .300.

Eyebone >>

How easy one can forget but since you brought it up I fully agree he was one of the best also.

BPorter26 · July 6, 2009 8:58AM

I would like to know what makes Jeter overrated? How is someone overrated when he bats .300 almost every year and is the teams leader? Jeter has been clutch during post season play. I guess that makes him overrated.

Jeter's up to date lifetime stats
.316 Ave 2634 Hits 216 HR 292 SB and a Fielding Pct. 976
(6) 200+ hit
(11) batting over .300
(9) All-Star games
ROY in 1996
4 time World Champ

I'm nowhere near a Yankee Fan.

IchiroDeported · July 6, 2009 9:24AM

defensively I'd take Omar Vizquel, one of the best defensive ss i have ever seen in my short lifetime of 37 years. jeter is a better hitter and played for juggernaut teams. Ozzie was flashier, Jeter still gets the job done and has tremendous heart, that being said, as a Yankee he is slightly overrated.

heritage · July 6, 2009 1:33PM

Ozzie was much better with the glove........ but Jeter is a better hitter.

Tabe · July 6, 2009 2:27PM

<< I'm curious as Ozzie's range factor at 13 seasons vs. Jeters. I don't know for sure, but compared against their respective contemporaries, I'd guess Jeter has seen a much sharper decline. >>

Ozzie's career range factor per 9 innings was 5.22. During his career, the league range factor per 9 innings was 4.78. This means that Ozzie made 9.2% more plays than the average SS. His career fielding % was .978. During his career, the league fielding % for SS was .965.

Derek Jeter's career range factor per 9 innings is 4.17. During his career, the league range factor per 9 innings is 4.57. This means that Jeter made 8.8% fewer plays than the average SS. His career fielding % is .975 while the league has averaged .972 during his career.

In other words:

Ozzie got to a lot more balls than the average SS and was a lot better than them once he got to the ball.

Jeter gets to a lot fewer balls than the average SS and is slightly better than them once he gets to the ball.

I would put Jeter as a mediocre-at-best SS defensively. Ozzie is quite possibly the best of all-time.

However, just like it's no contest on defense, it's also no contest on offense. Ozzie was a below average player offensively (career OPS+ of 87) while Jeter is well above-average (career OPS+ of 120). On balance, I'd rather have Jeter than Ozzie, though I consider both to be HOF'ers. That said, I'd still take Trammell, A-Rod, and several others before Jeter & Ozzie as my SS.

Oh, and for the people who keep mentioning Gold Gloves: While they are certainly worth mentioning, let's not forget that Rafael Palmeiro won a GG one year (1999) when he played only 28 games in the field - and 135 at DH. And that Mark McGwire won one. The voters on Gold Gloves tend to favor guys who are good offensively rather than rating actual defense (see Robin Yount winning the GG in 1982 instead of Alan Trammell).

Tabe

Ironmanfan · July 6, 2009 11:05PM

Mary Ann over Ginger

Hoopster · July 7, 2009 12:29AM

Jeter is a below avg MLB defensive SS. Fielding percentage only tells a portion of the story. He simply does not get to the amount of balls that others do. We all knew this already, but the last few years of video intensive research of every defensive play(of all players) cements his place as below avg defensively.

Tabe, good points, but don't forget Ozzie's baserunning. WIth his baserunning he is probably league average offensively.

Jeter will end up the superior of the two because his offense is excellent, and his baserunning is also very good. It will be enough to overcome his lack of defensive ability.

Ozzie's defense was superb, but he was also helped out by playing for pitching staffs that didn't strike a lot of people out(thus more balls in play and more groud ball opportunities). Plus defensive measurements still have a murkiness to it as we saw with Bill Mazeroski's replacements playing just as well in his stead. Many times, a player may be getting more assists/putouts simply as a result of a pitching staff that produces more of those opportunities in their direction.

Final call will be Jeter over Smith.

TomGshotput · July 7, 2009 12:46AM

Check out the percentage of infield assists Smith made compared to the second and thirdbaseman he played next to. Pretty impressive

Hoopster · July 7, 2009 1:43AM

TomG, it is impressive enough to justify his status as the best defensive SS ever.

markj111 · July 7, 2009 2:22AM

I personally think Jeter is one of the most overrated players in the history of the game, but my initial reaction was that I would take him over Smith in a heartbeat. Jeter puts up tremendous offensive #s for a SS, but is somewhere between below average and awful defensively. After reviewing the numbers though, I am not sure. Adjusting for the different periods in which they played, Smith made about .8 more plays per game. That is about 130 outs over the course of a season. That's a lot to make up on the offensive side. Jeter's OPS is 179 points higher, though that gap will decline as he plays out the string. My opinion, FWIW, is that both are deserving HOFers (no news there). I do have increased respect for Ozzie's career.

Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter

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