Ozzie Smith or Derek Jeter
Trevmo
Posts: 201 ✭✭
Which one do you think is a better player considering the years they played and the type of hitters they fielded against? Ozzie Smith has more Gold Gloves and All-Star Games but Derek Jeter looks to have better numbers all around.
Trevmo
Trevmo
Collecting Ozzie Smith PSA 10's, 1949 Bowman PSA 5's, and 1949 Bowman PCL'S in any grade!
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Comments
Bob
email bcmiller7@comcast.net
<< <i>Personally, I think Jeter is extremely over rated. I would take Smith.
Bob >>
Overrated as a hitter, fielder, or both?
Jeter = better offense
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<< <i>Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>
agreed.
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<< <i>Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>
Hard to refute that.
eyebone
<< <i>What bigwilli said. IMO Jeter is almost as good a fielding SS as as was Ozzie; maybe not as spectacular, but still very good defensively. Conversely, Ozzie was nowhere near Jeter at the plate. Plus Jeter also has a bit of pop in his bat if needed....Ozzie never did.
eyebone >>
1985 NLCS = pop when needed
1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
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Eyebone
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
First off, you can't measure defensive ability by gold gloves. I base this on the fact that if you take Ozzie's lowest fielding percentage that resulted in a gold glove you will find that Jeter had 6 seasons with a higher fielding percentage that did not result in a gold glove.
Initially I thought that Smith was clearly the better defensive SS but the numbers are closer than I expected. Granted, Jeter has not played his final game yet.
Smith: .978
Jeter: .975
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<< <i>Personally, I think Jeter is extremely over rated. I would take Smith.
Bob >>
Yeah, he's pretty overrated. He has more hits than Pete Rose at the same point in his career too, but Rose was a stiff...
<< <i>If Jeter played for the Seattle Mariners, would you know his name? >>
In 13 full seasons he has 2,523 hits so I think so.
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<< <i>
<< <i>If Jeter played for the Seattle Mariners, would you know his name? >>
In 13 full seasons he has 2,523 hits so I think so. >>
Yeah that would even bring him attention in Milwaukee.
Eyebone
<< <i>Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>
Always like to see it when someone goes out on a limb
Just because a player is overrated does not mean he isn't good. Jeter has done more to help the Yankees than Smith did to help his teams
<< <i>
<< <i>Ozzie = better defense
Jeter = better offense >>
Always like to see it when someone goes out on a limb
Just because a player is overrated does not mean he isn't good. Jeter has done more to help the Yankees than Smith did to help his teams >>
I don't disagree with you, but was that statement really going out on a limb?
but i gotta go with Ozzie. you can't beat those backflips and those sideburns.....
<< <i>Yes >>
Haha well argued.
mike
<< <i>I still think Ozzie's 13 Gold Gloves have to count for something. Even if someone thinks Jeter is a better shortstop, I don't think he has made that many incredible plays in his career that would warrant Gold Gloves. I like players that can make great plays. Jeter definitely has a better swing than Ozzie (as you can see by the numbers) did but I think Ozzie has him on defensive shortstop skills and All-Time spectacular plays. >>
I think you are putting way too much emphasis on the gold glove award itself. Yes Ozzie was a good SS but Cal Ripken, Jr., had a higher career fielding percentage and only won 2 gold gloves. In addition, Cal even had a year where he had a .996 fielding percentage at SS and did not win the gold glove for the year. Meanwhile, Ozzie won the '88 gold glove with a .972 fielding percentage and 22 errors.
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<< <i>Barry Larkin anybody? Very underrated IMO due to all though years in Cincy, but an MVP, 14-time AS, a career .295 hitter and .968 fielder. Sort of got overshadowed by some others but all he seemed to do for 10-15 years was play solid and hit .300.
Eyebone >>
How easy one can forget but since you brought it up I fully agree he was one of the best also.
Jeter's up to date lifetime stats
.316 Ave 2634 Hits 216 HR 292 SB and a Fielding Pct. 976
(6) 200+ hit
(11) batting over .300
(9) All-Star games
ROY in 1996
4 time World Champ
I'm nowhere near a Yankee Fan.
<< <i>I'm curious as Ozzie's range factor at 13 seasons vs. Jeters. I don't know for sure, but compared against their respective contemporaries, I'd guess Jeter has seen a much sharper decline. >>
Ozzie's career range factor per 9 innings was 5.22. During his career, the league range factor per 9 innings was 4.78. This means that Ozzie made 9.2% more plays than the average SS. His career fielding % was .978. During his career, the league fielding % for SS was .965.
Derek Jeter's career range factor per 9 innings is 4.17. During his career, the league range factor per 9 innings is 4.57. This means that Jeter made 8.8% fewer plays than the average SS. His career fielding % is .975 while the league has averaged .972 during his career.
In other words:
Ozzie got to a lot more balls than the average SS and was a lot better than them once he got to the ball.
Jeter gets to a lot fewer balls than the average SS and is slightly better than them once he gets to the ball.
I would put Jeter as a mediocre-at-best SS defensively. Ozzie is quite possibly the best of all-time.
However, just like it's no contest on defense, it's also no contest on offense. Ozzie was a below average player offensively (career OPS+ of 87) while Jeter is well above-average (career OPS+ of 120). On balance, I'd rather have Jeter than Ozzie, though I consider both to be HOF'ers. That said, I'd still take Trammell, A-Rod, and several others before Jeter & Ozzie as my SS.
Oh, and for the people who keep mentioning Gold Gloves: While they are certainly worth mentioning, let's not forget that Rafael Palmeiro won a GG one year (1999) when he played only 28 games in the field - and 135 at DH. And that Mark McGwire won one. The voters on Gold Gloves tend to favor guys who are good offensively rather than rating actual defense (see Robin Yount winning the GG in 1982 instead of Alan Trammell).
Tabe
Tabe, good points, but don't forget Ozzie's baserunning. WIth his baserunning he is probably league average offensively.
Jeter will end up the superior of the two because his offense is excellent, and his baserunning is also very good. It will be enough to overcome his lack of defensive ability.
Ozzie's defense was superb, but he was also helped out by playing for pitching staffs that didn't strike a lot of people out(thus more balls in play and more groud ball opportunities). Plus defensive measurements still have a murkiness to it as we saw with Bill Mazeroski's replacements playing just as well in his stead. Many times, a player may be getting more assists/putouts simply as a result of a pitching staff that produces more of those opportunities in their direction.
Final call will be Jeter over Smith.