Is there an exact numer when a coin becomes rare?

stinkinlincoln · May 30, 2009 3:52PM

Questions in the title.

Also, is there a general number for scarce?

Placid · May 30, 2009 3:56PM

Sheldon scale version.
R8 = 1-3 known (estimated), "Unique or Nearly Unique"
R7 = 4-12 known, "Extremely Rare"
R6 = 13-30 known, "Very Rare"
R5 = 31-75 known, "Rare"
R4 = 76-200 known, "Very Scarce"
R3 = 201-500 known, "Scarce"

lasvegasteddy · May 30, 2009 4:00PM

there's scales like the sneldon and bowers did an update

they have points in their scale where rare becomes used as its term

rare...,

we all kinda assess our own likes to how we apply it

rare also has it's varied applications

condition rarity...designation rarity...issue rarity...surviving rarity

but to your question

sneldon as bowers claimed their rare point as i've my own

StubbyMcNumbthumbs · May 30, 2009 8:04PM

On occasion, this term is accidently and/or improperly used in such venues as this "ebay" place about which is frequently mentioned.

ricko · May 30, 2009 10:09PM

It becomes rare when it hits a dealers table or showcase. Cheers, RickO

ColonialCoinUnion · May 30, 2009 10:21PM

<< Is there an exact numer when a coin becomes rare? >>

No.

keets · May 30, 2009 10:45PM

i have always held "75" as the arbitrary number.

most coins which are listed as rare are only scarce, with truly rare coins being past the collectibility of the average collector. many coins listed by sellers and generally thought of as rare in the collecting community are actually common, coins such as the '09-S VDB and '16-D Merc being the two most commonly fitting into this category. that's one of the things that makes the hobby fun. in my mind there is actual rarity and a hobby-inspired "i gotta have it" rarity, with the latter being one which essentially says i gotta have it but since everyone else does too i can't afford it so it's rare. at even a mid-size show both coins can be found in a range of grades/prices and due to there noteriety are easier to find them some otherwise "common" coins.

there also exists animals which are grade rarities but that's an entirely different thread topic.

ricko · May 30, 2009 11:29PM

I agree Keets, when I am looking for one, it is suddenly rare.

Cheers, RickO

supertooth · May 30, 2009 11:46PM

How long do you have to look for a particular coin----in a particular grade----or maybe in a particular condition---before you, as a collector, look at that coin as "hard to find"??

Let's say, as an example, you are looking for a 1935S Walker in a PCGS MS65 holder. But, you not only want it to be one of the 281 that have been slabbed by PCGS----you want the coin to have "original skin"----and some NT toning as well. How many of those approx. 281 coins can fit your wants and needs?? After looking for 2--3 years, does the coin start to "sort of bother you"---because you HAVE NOT seen any examples?

What about after looking for 5 years?? Is the coin "scarce" then? Or maybe it is just a bit "rarer" or "unavailable"? Or maybe you just have not been at the right place at the right time? What about putting out the word that you need one----don't care about the price that you might need to pay for it. And---you still CAN"T find one that you like. A couple or more "white" ones are around. But, they are NOT what you want.

To this collector, when you have done this for a particularly needed coin---your brain cells at some point MUST kick in and say, "it ought to be there but isn't---therefore, the coin is a sleeper and one to be highly prized". Then, one day, a very good coin buddy sends you a PM---and, you foolishly pay retail for a beauty that he found for you on a dealer's websight.

But, the key then is to keep looking for the coin. In two more years after that---you still have NOT found another one. You are still smiling that you bought the coin. You still DON"T care that you know that you still paid too much money for it.

Is that 1935S Walker a "scarce" coin?? A "rare" coin?? Just "difficult to locate"?? Just a "sleeper"?? A true Walker person knows what the coin is---that is "WHY" the money just didn't matter. There are many coins---within many series---that will sort of fit this theory. When you finally do see one, when will you see another one that fits the bill?? Bob [supertooth]

MidLifeCrisis · May 31, 2009 1:18AM

Well, Bob [supertooth], here are a couple of thoughts in response to your post:

1. I don't think rarity has anything to do with how long do you have to look for a particular coin. There's too much subjectivity involved here. During your search, you may find many coins in a particular type, date and grade, but if they don't suit your exact desires, then you pass.

2. Similarly, just because I don't like most coins I see of a particular type, date and grade, this doesn't make them rare. It can make my search frustrating after a while though.

3. Insisting that a particular coin be of a certain grade (i.e., I must have a 1935S Walker in a PCGS MS65 holder) is not the best way to go about searching and building a collection, in my opinion. You may miss that otherwise perfect coin that currently resides in a 64 holder...best of all, it may actually be undergraded.

Barndog · May 31, 2009 1:49AM

no absolute number. Rare also implies unmet demand. So if there are 40 people who collect something and there are 75 examples known, the remaining 35 languishing in inventory are not rare.

AskRaq · May 31, 2009 1:50AM

Bower's Universal Rarity Scale (URS) - as used in the 5th Edition CPG:

URS-0 NONE
URS-1 ONE, UNIQUE
URS-2 TWO
URS-3 3 or 4
URS-4 5-8
URS-5 9-16
URS-6 17-32
URS-7 33-64
URS-8 65-125
URS-9 126-250
URS-10 251-500
URS-11 501-1K
URS-12 1,001-2K
URS-13 2,001-4K
URS-14 4,001-8K
URS-15 8,001-16K
URS-16 16,001-32K
URS-17 32,001-65K
URS-18 65,001-125K
URS-19 125,001-250K
URS-20 250,001-500K
URS-21 500,001-1 MILLION
URS-22 1,000,001-2 MILLION
(etc.)

MrHalfDime · May 31, 2009 1:52AM

I would tend to agree with the majority of responses here, that, using the Sheldon rarity scale, a coin is 'rare' when only approximately 31 to 75 pieces are known. However, I recently overheard a comment on a bourse floor which perhaps best describes the term 'rare'. It was stated that a coin is truly 'rare' when no amount of money can buy one. All known examples are closely held by collectors and not available for purchase (although Ricko's definition certainly has merit, too).

supertooth · May 31, 2009 2:06AM

MidLifeCrisis---- I did not mean to imply that I wouldn't have accepted an MS64 coin---or a MS66 piece for that matter. The MS65 was sort of a "reference" point----what I really wanted was just a nice piece. I'm still looking for an "original patina" AU58 coin too. But, if I find an Au55, I'll jump on that one if it is nice.

I guess maybe I could have added----Hunting for a 37S or a 39S Walker is "much easier". Those coins are fairly available for reasonable monies. But, not so, for the 35S coin. It is the kind of thing that you find out about a series after you have spent years with that series. JMHO of course. Bob [supertooth]

RichieURich · May 31, 2009 2:06AM

One way I look at is: a common coin is often sold in rolls. A scarce coin is one that isn't sold in rolls, but if given 6 months and money, you could buy enough of them to make up a roll. A rare coin is one that all of the coins in the world wouldn't make up a roll.

roadrunner · May 31, 2009 2:30AM

The definition as already mentioned, probably changes from series to series (ie demand vs. supply)

For better date seated coins I've always figured total existing pops under 100-125 coins is rare. Across the various denominations there are a dozen or two dates that meet that requirement.

.... However, I recently overheard a comment on a bourse floor which perhaps best describes the term 'rare'. It was stated that a coin is truly 'rare' when no amount of money can buy one. All known examples are closely held by collectors and not available for purchase....

I don't know if that's rare or just "unobtainable." To meet that definition today the coin might be one of the following: J-1776, 1877 Smithsonian $50 Unions, and similar rarities. Even so, I can think of few coins that aren't permanently impounded where a "stupid" price would not release the coin. Even J-1776 might be made available to you if you wanted pay say $20 MILL or even $50-$100 MILL. The Smithsonian is not parting with their $50 Unions so no amount of money is going to get them. Then again.....if you had $10 TRILL, the president just might be willing to make an exception since you will help balance the budget for the next 5-10 yrs.

roadrunner

Zoins · May 31, 2009 2:40AM

<< 

<< .... However, I recently overheard a comment on a bourse floor which perhaps best describes the term 'rare'. It was stated that a coin is truly 'rare' when no amount of money can buy one. All known examples are closely held by collectors and not available for purchase.... >>

I don't know if that's rare or just "unobtainable." To meet that definition today the coin might be one of the following: J-1776, 1877 Smithsonian $50 Unions, and similar rarities. Even so, I can think of few coins that aren't permanently impounded where a "stupid" price would not release the coin. Even J-1776 might be made available to you if you wanted pay say $20 MILL or even $50-$100 MILL. The Smithsonian is not parting with their $50 Unions so no amount of money is going to get them. Then again.....if you had $10 TRILL, the president just might be willing to make an exception since you will help balance the budget for the next 5-10 yrs.

roadrunner >>

I agree. The ability to acquire a piece is different than the absolute number of survivors. With respect to the ability to acquire, the US Government may be one of the strongest hands of all. There are modern examples as well, including the 12 flown gold Sacs, which are closely held and difficult for collectors to obtain. Although these 12 are unobtainable, are they more rare than something that occasionally changes hands between collectors with fewer survivors?

erroid · May 31, 2009 2:45AM

I'm in agreement with Barndog and MrHalfDime; it's a matter of supply and demand.

Coinosaurus · May 31, 2009 3:39AM

<< The Smithsonian is not parting with their $50 Unions so no amount of money is going to get them. Then again.....if you had $10 TRILL, the president just might be willing to make an exception since you will help balance the budget for the next 5-10 yrs.
>>

I bet he would do it for $10 billion, not trillion. After all, they have two of them, they can let one go for the right price

ziggy29 · May 31, 2009 3:48AM

42.

coinspeak · May 31, 2009 3:55AM

when you can't find it anymore.

mach19 · May 31, 2009 4:21AM

I don't think so, Check out the 'Bay

speety · May 31, 2009 5:44AM

I've always wondered if rare is more of a product of demand than of supply. If a coin has 1,000 available, but over a million people want the coin, well it's gonna be hard to find one. If a coin has 20 available, but only 15 people want the coin, it may be easier to find than the example above.

I've always placed 'absolute' rarity at the 100-150 mark for most US series.

keets · May 31, 2009 6:42AM

does anyone really think "Rarity" is defined in any way as to how easy a coin can be found?? i thought it was generally accepted to mean how many exist or are believed to exist. just because a coin is dificult to locate in a specific grade or because all the known examples are unobtainable, should the rarity be affected or even a matter of concern?? what really matters is absolute known examples.

stinkinlincoln · May 31, 2009 6:49AM

My OP was meant how keets put it. Over all rarity.

PerryHall · May 31, 2009 9:36AM

<< does anyone really think "Rarity" is defined in any way as to how easy a coin can be found?? i thought it was generally accepted to mean how many exist or are believed to exist. just because a coin is dificult to locate in a specific grade or because all the known examples are unobtainable, should the rarity be affected or even a matter of concern?? what really matters is absolute known examples. >>

Agree 100%. The 1909 svdb is not rare. Nor is the 1907 HR double eagle.

ProofArtworkonCircs · May 31, 2009 3:10PM

<<no absolute number. Rare also implies unmet demand. So if there are 40 people who collect something and there are 75 examples known, the remaining 35 languishing in inventory are not rare.>>

Now consider 75 people and 40 coins. That is rare indeed.

Zoins · May 31, 2009 3:42PM

In addition to condition rarity and other non-absolute rarities, should there be an "acquisition rarity?"

Bcsican · May 31, 2009 3:45PM

2.....

AOEDAD · May 31, 2009 4:54PM

Rare also implies unmet demand. So if there are 40 people who collect something and there are 75 examples known, the remaining 35 languishing in inventory are not rare.

Now consider 75 people and 40 coins. That is rare indeed.

I've collected coins for 50 years .. True Rarity is based upon the number that still exist .. not demand nor price !

take care .. tj
www.jankovsky.net

Here is a coin I have .. high demand but it is not Ex. Rare !

HalfStrike · May 31, 2009 6:19PM

The Ebay scale is

1 to 500 million VERY RARE L@@K
500 million to 2 billion ULTRA RARE
Over 2 billion EXTREMELY RARE

Is there an exact numer when a coin becomes rare?

Comments

Leave a Comment