<<< 65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field. >>>
Ahh, ok. I had thought the Siam 1804 started out as a PCGS 64 and was now in a 68 holder, I guess not. And the Dexter specimen got 2 upgrades with a 'D' counterstamped on the reverse......hmmm.
<< <i><<< 65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field. >>>
Ahh, ok. I had thought the Siam 1804 started out as a PCGS 64 and was now in a 68 holder, I guess not. And the Dexter specimen got 2 upgrades with a 'D' counterstamped on the reverse......hmmm. >>
The Childs 1804 is currently the only one in a 68 holder iirc.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i><<< Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance! >>>
How many grade points did the King of Siam 1804 dollar jump over the years back and forth from PCGS / NGC, something like 3 or 4 upgrades I think. >>
65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field.
The Dexter coin went from 63 to 64 to 65
The Adams coin went from 45 to 58
The Mickley coin went from "AU" to 62
The Eliasberg coin was described to me by a knowledgeable person as being 'nicked and hairlined and lightly cleaned' and is in a 65 holder. >>
IIRC, we graded the Garrett coin an EF-40. What is it now? TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"You gain 15 points, and whatta you get? Another day older and deeper in dreck!"
With apologies to Tennessee Ernie Ford......... TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
My accountant gave me some good advice after some discussion with the IRS and I learned several things:
Hobby and Investment CANNOT be used interchangeable. You make money in a HOBBY the tax rate is different than an INVESTMENT. In addition, you lose money in an investment, you may take some deductions that you cannot take in a hobby.
<< <i>My accountant gave me some good advice after some discussion with the IRS and I learned several things:
Hobby and Investment CANNOT be used interchangeable. You make money in a HOBBY the tax rate is different than an INVESTMENT. In addition, you lose money in an investment, you may take some deductions that you cannot take in a hobby.
TRUTH >>
The tax code is the most complex thing in the world next to a woman.
If Albanese is purchasing said 1804 dollar for a client then it really has no bearing on what he is willing to spend for himself in this market.
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual.
We will see much more down the road to call "unsual" in these trying times of Wall Street bank insolvencies. I wouldn't have been surprised if the 1804 sold for a much larger loss. Don't expect to see key date coins that have been the rage the past 5 years to hold their values through the worst of this downturn. Why should they? Are more key date collectors/investors rushing into the market? Are those with say half a dozen 1916 quarters or multiple 93-s dollars just considering parting with a couple in the near future? One of my local dealers has a dozen 93-s dollars and half as many 1916 25c's. What was probably a great idea 3 years ago isn't as logical today. An inordinate number of key date coins were being hoarded over the past 5 years than any comparable time in numismatic history. I still clearly recall the finest known 1794 SP66 flowing hair dollar selling for a MILLION in 1989-90 and then fetching 1/3 of that a short time later. It may not be the classic definition of a "key date" coin with a pop of >100, but it's in the same league.
Edited: It's not also fair to compare the coin downturn of 1990-1993 to 2008-XXXX? For one, the banks and financial system were nowwhere near as stressed back then. The economy was far more self sufficient and capable. Housing was being crushed but not quite as sharply as today. OTC Derivatives hardly existed and were on the order of at most $10-20 TRILLION (today: $684-$1,140 TRILL depending on which BIS method of evaluation one cites). We're also only in the first 6-9 months of a coin downturn which is way too early to make calls on what the various major rarities sell for down the road. We're basing all of our current predictions on a 38 year fiat currency system that has not seen a crisis like we currently have (not 1974-1977, not 1980-1982, not 1987, not 1990-1993, and not 2000-2003). Those 5 earlier system upsets were just warmup acts for the grand finale to come.
If one can clearly document that their "only/primary" motive in purchasing rare coins is for profit, then one can certainly use losses to offset those coins that profit. In other words, run your coin purchases as if they were like a business, not a hobbyist. Consult your own accountant for applicability.
We will see much more down the road to call "unsual" in these trying times of Wall Street bank insolvencies. I wouldn't have been surprised if the 1804 sold for a much larger loss. Don't expect to see key date coins that have been the rage the past 5 years to hold their values through the worst of this downturn. Why should they? Are more key date collectors/investors rushing into the market? Are those with say half a dozen 1916 quarters or multiple 93-s dollars just considering parting with a couple in the near future? One of my local dealers has a dozen 93-s dollars and half as many 1916 25c's. What was probably a great idea 3 years ago isn't as logical today. An inordinate number of key date coins were being hoarded over the past 5 years than any comparable time in numismatic history. I still clearly recall the finest known 1794 SP66 flowing hair dollar selling for a MILLION in 1989-90 and then fetching 1/3 of that a short time later. It may not be the classic definition of a "key date" coin with a pop of >100, but it's in the same league.
Excellent observation!
Many US rare coins were hidden away over this last bull run as investments by buyers ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just in the US. The value of a rarity may only be as significant as the last sale of the coin. Who is to say this 1804 $ won't be sold in 2 years for 1.5 million. It just depends how long the new owner can hold the coin and much cash can keep it.
There's still demand for great coins. I'd pay $3M for the Pogues' Dexter 1804 or $2.5M for the Amon Carter SP66 1794. Both of those would realize significant profits to the owner - just not as much as a year ago.
<< <i>The Child's 68 is not overgraded by more than a point. Judging by the others, it is undergraded.
K >>
But gooooood luck prying it from the owners hands. They are VERY strong! lol
The overgrading of the extreme rarities (1804 S$1, etc.) does not bother me whatsoever. Anyone who can afford these trophies should know them well enough to know exactly what is right/wrong with the coin, where it ranks in the census, etc.
Want to buy an auction catalog for the William Hesslein Sale (December 2, 1926). Thanks to all those who have helped us obtain the others!!!
<< <i> Anyone who can afford these trophies should know them well enough to know exactly what is right/wrong with the coin, where it ranks in the census, etc. >>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual. >>
I honestly lost money when I sold my icon, as well as the Amazonian set. It is all about timing, IMHO.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
@tradedollarnut said:
<< <<< Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance! >>>
How many grade points did the King of Siam 1804 dollar jump over the years back and forth from PCGS / NGC, something like 3 or 4 upgrades I think. >>
65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field.
The Dexter coin went from 63 to 64 to 65
The Adams coin went from 45 to 58
The Mickley coin went from "AU" to 62
The Eliasberg coin was described to me by a knowledgeable person as being 'nicked and hairlined and lightly cleaned' and is in a 65 holder.
The Garrett 1804 coming up for sale was a 40 when Bowers catalogued it for the Garrett sale and a 40 when ANACS graded it not long after. It is now in a 55 holder.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i><<< Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance! >>>
How many grade points did the King of Siam 1804 dollar jump over the years back and forth from PCGS / NGC, something like 3 or 4 upgrades I think. >>
65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field.
The Dexter coin went from 63 to 64 to 65
The Adams coin went from 45 to 58
The Mickley coin went from "AU" to 62
The Eliasberg coin was described to me by a knowledgeable person as being 'nicked and hairlined and lightly cleaned' and is in a 65 holder.
Ahh, ok. I had thought the Siam 1804 started out as a PCGS 64 and was now in a 68 holder, I guess not. And the Dexter specimen got 2 upgrades with a 'D' counterstamped on the reverse......hmmm.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
CG
<< <i><<< 65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field. >>>
Ahh, ok. I had thought the Siam 1804 started out as a PCGS 64 and was now in a 68 holder, I guess not. And the Dexter specimen got 2 upgrades with a 'D' counterstamped on the reverse......hmmm. >>
The Childs 1804 is currently the only one in a 68 holder iirc.
<< <i>
<< <i><<< Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance! >>>
How many grade points did the King of Siam 1804 dollar jump over the years back and forth from PCGS / NGC, something like 3 or 4 upgrades I think. >>
65 to 66 to 67. All of that with [IMO] a small spot scratched out in the obverse field.
The Dexter coin went from 63 to 64 to 65
The Adams coin went from 45 to 58
The Mickley coin went from "AU" to 62
The Eliasberg coin was described to me by a knowledgeable person as being 'nicked and hairlined and lightly cleaned' and is in a 65 holder. >>
IIRC, we graded the Garrett coin an EF-40.
What is it now?
TD
PF55
Edited to add: Hey - at least the ranking is still good: EF45 to EF40 vs PR58 to PF55.
and whatta you get?
Another day older
and deeper in dreck!"
With apologies to Tennessee Ernie Ford.........
TD
TD
Hobby and Investment CANNOT be used interchangeable. You make money in a HOBBY the tax rate is different than an INVESTMENT. In addition, you lose money in an investment, you may take some deductions that you cannot take in a hobby.
TRUTH
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it CAC'ed?
(Someone had to ask.....) >>
If it isn't, you can be sure it soon will be.
Wanna bet? >>
TDN---I was joking. Did you see the smiley face? Obviously, a coin like this don't need no stinking CAC sticker.
Ok.
Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance! >>
THANKS! That's all I needed to know......the 1804 dollars were "Market Graded"!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>My accountant gave me some good advice after some discussion with the IRS and I learned several things:
Hobby and Investment CANNOT be used interchangeable. You make money in a HOBBY the tax rate is different than an INVESTMENT. In addition, you lose money in an investment, you may take some deductions that you cannot take in a hobby.
TRUTH >>
The tax code is the most complex thing in the world next to a woman.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual.
We will see much more down the road to call "unsual" in these trying times of Wall Street bank insolvencies. I wouldn't have been surprised if the 1804 sold for a much larger loss. Don't expect to see key date coins that have been the rage the past 5 years to hold their values through the worst of this downturn. Why should they? Are more key date collectors/investors rushing into the market? Are those with say half a dozen 1916 quarters or multiple 93-s dollars just considering parting with a couple in the near future? One of my local dealers has a dozen 93-s dollars and half as many 1916 25c's. What was probably a great idea 3 years ago isn't as logical today. An inordinate number of key date coins were being hoarded over the past 5 years than any comparable time in numismatic history. I still clearly recall the finest known 1794 SP66 flowing hair dollar selling for a MILLION in 1989-90 and then fetching 1/3 of that a short time later. It may not be the classic definition of a "key date" coin with a pop of >100, but it's in the same league.
Edited: It's not also fair to compare the coin downturn of 1990-1993 to 2008-XXXX? For one, the banks and financial system were nowwhere near as stressed back then. The economy was far more self sufficient and capable. Housing was being crushed but not quite as sharply as today. OTC Derivatives hardly existed and were on the order of at most $10-20 TRILLION (today: $684-$1,140 TRILL depending on which BIS method of evaluation one cites). We're also only in the first 6-9 months of a coin downturn which is way too early to make calls on what the various major rarities sell for down the road. We're basing all of our current predictions on a 38 year fiat currency system that has not seen a crisis like we currently have (not 1974-1977, not 1980-1982, not 1987, not 1990-1993, and not 2000-2003). Those 5 earlier system upsets were just warmup acts for the grand finale to come.
If one can clearly document that their "only/primary" motive in purchasing rare coins is for profit, then one can certainly use losses to offset those coins that profit. In other words, run your coin purchases as if they were like a business, not a hobbyist. Consult your own accountant for applicability.
roadrunner
Excellent observation!
Many US rare coins were hidden away over this last bull run as investments by buyers ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just in the US. The value of a rarity may only be as significant as the last sale of the coin. Who is to say this 1804 $ won't be sold in 2 years for 1.5 million. It just depends how long the new owner can hold the coin and much cash can keep it.
TRUTH
I got an 1804 Dollar about 3 months ago. Paid less that he would have to pay to get a sticker put on his.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>The Child's 68 is not overgraded by more than a point. Judging by the others, it is undergraded.
K >>
But gooooood luck prying it from the owners hands. They are VERY strong! lol
The overgrading of the extreme rarities (1804 S$1, etc.) does not bother me whatsoever. Anyone who can afford these trophies should know them well enough to know exactly what is right/wrong with the coin, where it ranks in the census, etc.
<< <i> Anyone who can afford these trophies should know them well enough to know exactly what is right/wrong with the coin, where it ranks in the census, etc. >>
You would think so!
<< <i>
<< <i>
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
>>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual. >>
I honestly lost money when I sold my icon, as well as the Amazonian set. It is all about timing, IMHO.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
The Garrett 1804 coming up for sale was a 40 when Bowers catalogued it for the Garrett sale and a 40 when ANACS graded it not long after. It is now in a 55 holder.