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John Albanese buys 1804 $1 for $2.3m
Halfsense
Posts: 600 ✭✭✭
Congratulations to John, Heritage and the consignor. There's a brief Associated Press story tonight (Thursday night) about the auction. Here's a link:
AP State/Regional brief (Ohio and Texas wires)
If that doesn't work, try this link:
A different link to the AP story
I anticipate AP will have a longer story on the wire on Friday and it will probably be distributed nationwide, similar to what AP did a few days earlier with a nice pre-auction story about the Adams-Carter 1804 dollar.
-donn-
AP State/Regional brief (Ohio and Texas wires)
If that doesn't work, try this link:
A different link to the AP story
I anticipate AP will have a longer story on the wire on Friday and it will probably be distributed nationwide, similar to what AP did a few days earlier with a nice pre-auction story about the Adams-Carter 1804 dollar.
-donn-
"If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....
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Comments
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
(Someone had to ask.....)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
TD
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
john
Looks like a lot of "featured" coins did not sell
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Congrats to John, that should satisfy his rare coin fix for a few weeks...
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
john >>
Like, we can lump all the other coins into the same class as this one. I don't think so!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I was outbid again on another 1804.
Congrats Mr. Albanese.
Mike
<< <i>Dang!
I was outbid again on another 1804.
Congrats Mr. Albanese.
Mike >>
In a strange sort of way, I get a kick out of putting a $1 bid on such rareties. I can say I was the high bidder on "such and such" for 'X' time. I really put such bids in so that I can track them and see where they finally are sold.
<< <i>
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
>>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual.
<< <i>Donn.....any chance he will send it in to have the grade "fixed?"
TD
I've heard rumors. Maybe we can have a round of 1804 $1 grade deflation - after all, there's a couple of points to play with on them all now.
Once or twice.
<< <i>
<< <i>
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
>>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual. >>
I remember the Garrett 1804 bringing $400,000, and then bringing $210,000 a few years later.
The $400,000 figure sticks in my head because when the Linderman 1804 walked into ANACS a few months after that sale, we had a call from a dealer down in Texas who had worked out a deal with the "possessor" of the coin to buy it for the same price if we would authenticate it first. I had to tell him to not give the guy any money without telling him why.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
>>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual. >>
I remember the Garrett 1804 bringing $400,000, and then bringing $210,000 a few years later.
The $400,000 figure sticks in my head because when the Linderman 1804 walked into ANACS a few months after that sale, we had a call from a dealer down in Texas who had worked out a deal with the "possessor" of the coin to buy it for the same price if we would authenticate it first. I had to tell him to not give the guy any money without telling him why.
TD >>
Exceptions do exist, but the vast majority of classic rarity sales have occurred for profit. Usually, the coins are in such strong hands that a profit is required to obtain ownership.
You can't always think about what you paid for something and not selling because you will have lost, you have to think what will give you a better return from this point forward. He can also take a nice tax write off and get back about 35% of that loss if he has gains to offset the loss with. You have to know the entire story to really comment.
It is interesting to watch these first few Heritage sessions, the coins they involve, the hammer prices, and the discussion afterwards.
It is amazing to me how broad the dynamic range of coin purchases is. Say, from $1 dollar to $2.3 million dollars.
The numbers are quite extreme:
Imagine a automobile that was 2.3 million times larger than another automobile.
One would be your typical size.
The other 'car' would be so large that it would span the US from coast to coast.
<< <i> He can also take a nice tax write off and get back about 35% of that loss if he has gains to offset the loss with. You have to know the entire story to really comment. >>
Offseet against gains? What are you talking about. The man lost millions in this sale.
CG
CG
<< <i>dude, a $2M coin is not a hobby. Get a grip. Or get a better tax accountant. >>
It is for some.
Though most people of means manage to classify their hobbies in the most tax beneficial manner possible.
<< <i>Or get a better tax accountant. >>
Another chat room lawyer, the equivalent of a jailhouse lawyer pre-tax evasion conviction.
CG
buddy, you pay taxes on your 'hobby' gains for coin collecting right? At least, by law, you are supposed to. So if you are required to report gains, by law, tell me why you can't report loses? You have had gains on some of your coin sales at some point right?
Last year Heritage was sending out emails telling everyone to consign coins and if they had a loss, use it to offset gains. The email also said if you had gains in coins to use your stock losses to offset those. Do you just like to argue? What is your problem?
CG
Because the tax code generally doesn't allow it?
Everyone's situation is specific to them, seek the advice of a tax professional.
<< <i>We're supposed to be reporting our gains???
Some people in this hobby actually make gains???
<< <i>
<< <i>We're supposed to be reporting our gains???
Some people in this hobby actually make gains???
Not me, I have been negative since the start.
I remember selling it in 2002 as I grew to dislike that pattern as it was not an attractive piece even though it was exceptionally rare (R-8).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
And so much for a weak coin market, eh?
>>
The consignor goes down in history as one of only a handful of people to EVER lose money on a classic rarity. Call it what you will, but it's unusual. >>
I remember the Garrett 1804 bringing $400,000, and then bringing $210,000 a few years later.
The $400,000 figure sticks in my head because when the Linderman 1804 walked into ANACS a few months after that sale, we had a call from a dealer down in Texas who had worked out a deal with the "possessor" of the coin to buy it for the same price if we would authenticate it first. I had to tell him to not give the guy any money without telling him why.
TD >>
Exceptions do exist, but the vast majority of classic rarity sales have occurred for profit. Usually, the coins are in such strong hands that a profit is required to obtain ownership. >>
This very same coin lost money 56 after the first recorded purchase, in fact. Of course, it did sell it in the depths of the Great Depression. The buying price in 1876 was $550 to Adams. Col. Green bought it via Max Mehl in 1932 for $340, losing more than 1/3 of its value. However, since many assets fared much worse at the time, perhaps it wasn't such a bad price.
NSDR - Life Member
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ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Re losses on coins, they are deductible on your tax returns ONLY if you are buying and selling coins as a business. An individual reports these transactions on a Schedule C. If you are being 'cute' about this, the IRS may disallow everything as a hobby loss, fine you, and all of that other happy stuff.
Whatever you do, you'd better keep good records. No records means no cost basis on the items you sold. >>
CG
<< <i>Is it CAC'ed?
(Someone had to ask.....) >>
If it isn't, you can be sure it soon will be.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it CAC'ed?
(Someone had to ask.....) >>
If it isn't, you can be sure it soon will be.
Wanna bet?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it CAC'ed?
(Someone had to ask.....) >>
If it isn't, you can be sure it soon will be.
Wanna bet? >>
TDN---I was joking. Did you see the smiley face? Obviously, a coin like this don't need no stinking CAC sticker.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it CAC'ed?
(Someone had to ask.....) >>
If it isn't, you can be sure it soon will be.
Wanna bet? >>
TDN---I was joking. Did you see the smiley face? Obviously, a coin like this don't need no stinking CAC sticker.
Ok.
Actually, I think that ALL 1804 dollars DO need CAC stickers - they're the most overgraded things in existance!
<< <i>Hobby losses cannot be use to offset capital gains from other investments.
CG >>
Capital gains losses from coins can certainly offset capital gains from other investments.
I've been looking thru the IRS web site and come to the same conclusion. There is a caveat. Coins are taxed at a max rate of 28%. Stocks are taxed at max rate of 15% (long term). So if you use stock gains to offset coin losses, you don't get the full benefit due to the tax rate difference.
So in this example, if this guy had a loss of $400k and stock gains of at least that amount, he would only save $60k in taxes (15% X $400k). He would be better off selling other coins or precious metals or art at a gain if he had them, and using the loss on this coin to offset gains on other coins at a 28% rate.
If someone has a specific example from the current tax code (not the code from 2001) that contradicts this, please post it.
How many grade points did the King of Siam 1804 dollar jump over the years back and forth from PCGS / NGC, something like 3 or 4 upgrades I think.