<< <i>looks like the PCGS luster in regards to MPL Lincolns on the open market is beginning to be rubbed off.
Stack's sale Matte Proof Lincoln cents sold recently (prices include 15% buyers fee)
1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid 1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid 1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid 1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A 1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3416 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid 1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3417 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid 1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
looks like buyers aren't too happy with how PCGS grades these, and the disparity of final sales price versus bid shows a huge advantage to NGC. >>
My impressions are that NGC is a bit looser when it comes to toning, and the toners are the ones that really fetch the big bucks.
Am I wrong? Just wondering....Mike (who doesn't follow these coins nearly as closely as many) >>
Looking at the coins now, it looks to me like my impression was correct....
Example #1: Toned coin fetches a huge premium... 1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid 1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
Example #2: Toned coin fetches a huge premium... 1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid 1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
Example #3: Toned coin fetches a huge premium... 1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid 1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
Example #4: Toned coin fetches a huge premium... 1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A 1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
Example #5: Toned coin fetches a huge premium... 1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3423 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid 1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3424 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
Example #6: Toned (and undergraded?) coin fetches a huge premium.... 1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid 1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
IMO, it was rather disingenuous of you to suggest what you did, taking the above into consideration.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
If an NGC coin is crossed to PCGS at the same grade, and, yes, it does happen, does the coin "magically" become better? According to all the marvelous logic in this thread, it MUST magically transform! Because: PCGS coins always sell for more than NGC in the same grade, right? Therefore, the coin either magically becomes better, or certain people are paying MORE FOR PLASTIC, and not actually paying for a coin! For the uninformed: PCGS DOES NOT MINT COINS! They only stick them into a plastic tomb. Whether some coins are overgraded, undergraded, or put into a graded slab AFTER being rejected as "Tooled" by NGC, they are still only slabbing them. PCGS coins are not BETTER than NGC coins, they are just in different pieces of plastic. Maybe PCGS grades tougher in some instances, maybe they grade looser in some instances, but only an idiot would insist on making blanket statements saying PCGS coins are always better than NGC coins. Try looking at the coin instead of the slab, because, no matter what crap is printed on either services slab, the coin inside is "Nice" or it ain't. Blind devotion to either service is juvenile, and moronic. I can't believe how faithful some people are....
GRANDAM, you ought to post a link to the one where PCGS labeled an MS coin as PR (or was it the other way around?), or maybe the one where PCGS slabbed a coin with obvious graffiti, or maybe the one where PCGS slabbed a coin that was obviously tooled (and had been rejected as such by NGC)? They both make mistakes, they both over and under grade at times, ect. Only a fool would have so much faith in a label. Again, try looking at the COIN !!!
I don't believe I ever said ALWAYS but,,,, and there is always a but,,,, I will rephrase it just to try to please some of you,,,,,
In general PCGS coins sell for more money than NGC or ANACS or ICG or any of the other guys in the same date and grade. Sure there are mistakes in all company's holders. Always will be as long as humans are handling the process. Be it a grader mistake or a mechanical error.
I never siad EVERY single coin,,, BUT in general PCGS coins sell for more than the others.
That is what I am saying and anyone who follows sale prices knows this.
I am right,,,,, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
There I said it,,, that is all I have to say.
I have submissions to work on and guess who I am sending them to?????
<< <i>If an NGC coin is crossed to PCGS at the same grade, and, yes, it does happen, does the coin "magically" become better? According to all the marvelous logic in this thread, it MUST magically transform! Because: PCGS coins always sell for more than NGC in the same grade, right? Therefore, the coin either magically becomes better, or certain people are paying MORE FOR PLASTIC, and not actually paying for a coin! For the uninformed: PCGS DOES NOT MINT COINS! They only stick them into a plastic tomb. Whether some coins are overgraded, undergraded, or put into a graded slab AFTER being rejected as "Tooled" by NGC, they are still only slabbing them. PCGS coins are not BETTER than NGC coins, they are just in different pieces of plastic. Maybe PCGS grades tougher in some instances, maybe they grade looser in some instances, but only an idiot would insist on making blanket statements saying PCGS coins are always better than NGC coins. Try looking at the coin instead of the slab, because, no matter what crap is printed on either services slab, the coin inside is "Nice" or it ain't. Blind devotion to either service is juvenile, and moronic. I can't believe how faithful some people are.... >>
No one EVER SAID that PCGS was/is perfect and never makes errors or mistakes.
Also there are lots of coins out there that will/would be graded the same by both services. Its like the old argument about which cartridge is better, the .270 Win or the .280 Rem, when the truth is they are more alike than they are different. same for coins.
Whether you choose to believe/accept it or not there are lots of people out there who rely heavily on the opinions of the TPGs and accept the slab/grade as gospel.
Why would you want NGC when the market clearly prefers PCGS or in other words why would you sell Fords when the market demands Caddies?
"Why would you want NGC when the market clearly prefers PCGS or in other words why would you sell Fords when the market demands Caddies?"
Because I'd buy the individual coin, not the plastic. I'd also buy the individual car, not just the nameplate. Maybe it's just me, I never said I was normal.....
After thinking about it, I think the reason I'm not tied to one TPG (even if they sell for more), is that I've been a collector for 30+ years, and never really concerned myself with profitting on a coin. It's just a hobby to me, not an "investment"...
<< <i>"Why would you want NGC when the market clearly prefers PCGS or in other words why would you sell Fords when the market demands Caddies?"
Because I'd buy the individual coin, not the plastic. I'd also buy the individual car, not just the nameplate. Maybe it's just me, I never said I was normal.....
After thinking about it, I think the reason I'm not tied to one TPG (even if they sell for more), is that I've been a collector for 30+ years, and never really concerned myself with profitting on a coin. It's just a hobby to me, not an "investment"... >>
Of course one should ALWAYS buy the coin and NOT the plastic, BUT if the coin that you like and buy just HAPPENS to be in plastic; the knowledgeable/prudent investor/collector/dealer would prefer that it be in PCGS plastic.
Unless one is filthy rich, to go out and put $1500 into a coin and not care if one gets it all back is just plain dumb IMO. Most of us work hard for our money and choose to spend it wisely and that includes being mindful of the significant financial investment [not the traditional type here] we make in our coins.
"Unless one is filthy rich, to go out and put $1500 into a coin and not care if one gets it all back is just plain dumb IMO. Most of us work hard for our money and choose to spend it wisely and that includes being mindful of the significant financial investment [not the traditional type here] we make in our coins. "
I see your point, and I'm certainly not filthy rich, I'm not even "kinda dirty" rich. I probably am a bit on the "just plain dumb" side though. Fact is, over the past 30 some years, I've collected a lot of coins, some nice, some not so nice, but, over time, "incidentally" made money when I sold/traded them. My entire collection is only worth 15 to 20K, and, if they were worth only $100 tomorrow, I truly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just a hobby, and the cash outlay, over all those years, really amounts to nothing. Kind of the same with my antique tractors, I'd never get back close to the money I have in them, but I enjoy them all the same.
After actually reading what I just wrote, I guess I am "just plain dumb"! Seemed more logical before I actually typed and read it.......
<< <i>"Unless one is filthy rich, to go out and put $1500 into a coin and not care if one gets it all back is just plain dumb IMO. Most of us work hard for our money and choose to spend it wisely and that includes being mindful of the significant financial investment [not the traditional type here] we make in our coins. "
I see your point, and I'm certainly not filthy rich, I'm not even "kinda dirty" rich. I probably am a bit on the "just plain dumb" side though. Fact is, over the past 30 some years, I've collected a lot of coins, some nice, some not so nice, but, over time, "incidentally" made money when I sold/traded them. My entire collection is only worth 15 to 20K, and, if they were worth only $100 tomorrow, I truly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just a hobby, and the cash outlay, over all those years, really amounts to nothing. Kind of the same with my antique tractors, I'd never get back close to the money I have in them, but I enjoy them all the same.
After actually reading what I just wrote, I guess I am "just plain dumb"! Seemed more logical before I actually typed and read it....... >>
Not making judgement on anyone's intellectual prowess, but unless one is talking face value or a couple bux for a coin, how could anyone not really care if they ever get all or most of their $$$ back? Thats one of the reasons for buying right the first time, at least to me anyhoo.
"Not making judgement on anyone's intellectual prowess, but unless one is talking face value or a couple bux for a coin, how could anyone not really care if they ever get all or most of their $$$ back? Thats one of the reasons for buying right the first time, at least to me anyhoo."
No offense taken, I was just remarking that I am, indeed, "just plain dumb" sometimes :-) I really don't think about getting my $$$ back though. If I need a Classic Large Cent (and nice midgrades are fairly hard to find), I'll jump on one in either holder if it comes for sale at the right price! If it's in an NGC holder (and it's "nice"), I'll pay MORE than the PCGS price just to get it. If nobody else on the planet would pay half as much (because it's in the "wrong" holder), it wouldn't bother me in the least. The only time I concern myself with profit, is on the modern mint stuff that I will flip to finance my own collection.
I will add this though... I have a NICE Classic Cent (probably VF30), with NICE color, that I sent to NGC a year and a half ago. It came back "improperly cleaned". I tried it again a couple months ago, and it again came back "improperly cleaned". I've been collecting Large Cents for over 30 years, and I'm confident of my ability to grade them. This was a NICE coin! It may have been cleaned at some time in the past 150+ years, but was NICER than most slabbed (either service) coins. My beef with the TPG's is that they have both become TOO TIGHT on early copper! They are now rejecting coins that are OBVIOUSLY better than coins that are already slabbed. I think anyone on this board that collects early copper would agree...
Comments
<< <i>To say anyones coins are better is jibberish. The label might be different, but the coins????? >>
OK, I should have stated the "Quality" of the PCGS coins is better overall,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
GrandAm
<< <i>looks like the PCGS luster in regards to MPL Lincolns on the open market is beginning to be rubbed off.
Stack's sale Matte Proof Lincoln cents sold recently (prices include 15% buyers fee)
1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid
1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid
1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid
1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A
1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3416 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid
1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3417 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid
1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
looks like buyers aren't too happy with how PCGS grades these, and the disparity of final sales price versus bid shows a huge advantage to NGC. >>
My impressions are that NGC is a bit looser when it comes to toning, and the toners are the ones that really fetch the big bucks.
Am I wrong? Just wondering....Mike (who doesn't follow these coins nearly as closely as many)
<< <i>
<< <i>looks like the PCGS luster in regards to MPL Lincolns on the open market is beginning to be rubbed off.
Stack's sale Matte Proof Lincoln cents sold recently (prices include 15% buyers fee)
1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid
1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid
1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid
1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A
1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3416 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid
1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3417 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid
1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
looks like buyers aren't too happy with how PCGS grades these, and the disparity of final sales price versus bid shows a huge advantage to NGC. >>
My impressions are that NGC is a bit looser when it comes to toning, and the toners are the ones that really fetch the big bucks.
Am I wrong? Just wondering....Mike (who doesn't follow these coins nearly as closely as many) >>
Looking at the coins now, it looks to me like my impression was correct....
Example #1: Toned coin fetches a huge premium...
1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid
1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
Example #2: Toned coin fetches a huge premium...
1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid
1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
Example #3: Toned coin fetches a huge premium...
1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid
1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
Example #4: Toned coin fetches a huge premium...
1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A
1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
Example #5: Toned coin fetches a huge premium...
1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3423 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid
1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3424 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
Example #6: Toned (and undergraded?) coin fetches a huge premium....
1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid
1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
IMO, it was rather disingenuous of you to suggest what you did, taking the above into consideration.
Respectfully...Mike
Read THIS
Hum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
GrandAm
PCGS coins always sell for more than NGC in the same grade, right?
Therefore, the coin either magically becomes better, or certain people are paying MORE FOR PLASTIC, and not actually paying for a coin!
For the uninformed: PCGS DOES NOT MINT COINS! They only stick them into a plastic tomb. Whether some coins are overgraded, undergraded, or put into a graded slab AFTER being rejected as "Tooled" by NGC, they are still only slabbing them. PCGS coins are not BETTER than NGC coins, they are just in different pieces of plastic. Maybe PCGS grades tougher in some instances, maybe they grade looser in some instances, but only an idiot would insist on making blanket statements saying PCGS coins are always better than NGC coins. Try looking at the coin instead of the slab, because, no matter what crap is printed on either services slab, the coin inside is "Nice" or it ain't. Blind devotion to either service is juvenile, and moronic. I can't believe how faithful some people are....
Please read the following carefully....
KOOL AID in the dosage you are consuming it can cause brain damage.....
I hope I am not too late
here you go Grand Am, if you're this confident in PCGS, then pony up the $75,000 asking price for this one.
Former NCS tooled rarity, now in a PCGS holder
click here
I don't believe I ever said ALWAYS but,,,, and there is always a but,,,, I will rephrase it just to try to please some of you,,,,,
In general PCGS coins sell for more money than NGC or ANACS or ICG or any of the other guys in the same date and grade. Sure there are mistakes in all company's holders. Always will be as long as humans are handling the process. Be it a grader mistake or a mechanical error.
I never siad EVERY single coin,,, BUT in general PCGS coins sell for more than the others.
That is what I am saying and anyone who follows sale prices knows this.
I am right,,,,, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
There I said it,,, that is all I have to say.
I have submissions to work on and guess who I am sending them to?????
<< <i>If an NGC coin is crossed to PCGS at the same grade, and, yes, it does happen, does the coin "magically" become better? According to all the marvelous logic in this thread, it MUST magically transform! Because:
PCGS coins always sell for more than NGC in the same grade, right?
Therefore, the coin either magically becomes better, or certain people are paying MORE FOR PLASTIC, and not actually paying for a coin!
For the uninformed: PCGS DOES NOT MINT COINS! They only stick them into a plastic tomb. Whether some coins are overgraded, undergraded, or put into a graded slab AFTER being rejected as "Tooled" by NGC, they are still only slabbing them. PCGS coins are not BETTER than NGC coins, they are just in different pieces of plastic. Maybe PCGS grades tougher in some instances, maybe they grade looser in some instances, but only an idiot would insist on making blanket statements saying PCGS coins are always better than NGC coins. Try looking at the coin instead of the slab, because, no matter what crap is printed on either services slab, the coin inside is "Nice" or it ain't. Blind devotion to either service is juvenile, and moronic. I can't believe how faithful some people are.... >>
No one EVER SAID that PCGS was/is perfect and never makes errors or mistakes.
Also there are lots of coins out there that will/would be graded the same by both services. Its like the old argument about which cartridge is better, the .270 Win or the .280 Rem, when the truth is they are more alike than they are different. same for coins.
Whether you choose to believe/accept it or not there are lots of people out there who rely heavily on the opinions of the TPGs and accept the slab/grade as gospel.
Why would you want NGC when the market clearly prefers PCGS or in other words why would you sell Fords when the market demands Caddies?
Because I'd buy the individual coin, not the plastic. I'd also buy the individual car, not just the nameplate. Maybe it's just me, I never said I was normal.....
After thinking about it, I think the reason I'm not tied to one TPG (even if they sell for more), is that I've been a collector for 30+ years, and never really concerned myself with profitting on a coin. It's just a hobby to me, not an "investment"...
<< <i>"Why would you want NGC when the market clearly prefers PCGS or in other words why would you sell Fords when the market demands Caddies?"
Because I'd buy the individual coin, not the plastic. I'd also buy the individual car, not just the nameplate. Maybe it's just me, I never said I was normal.....
After thinking about it, I think the reason I'm not tied to one TPG (even if they sell for more), is that I've been a collector for 30+ years, and never really concerned myself with profitting on a coin. It's just a hobby to me, not an "investment"... >>
Of course one should ALWAYS buy the coin and NOT the plastic, BUT if the coin that you like and buy just HAPPENS to be in plastic; the knowledgeable/prudent investor/collector/dealer would prefer that it be in PCGS plastic.
Unless one is filthy rich, to go out and put $1500 into a coin and not care if one gets it all back is just plain dumb IMO. Most of us work hard for our money and choose to spend it wisely and that includes being mindful of the significant financial investment [not the traditional type here] we make in our coins.
I see your point, and I'm certainly not filthy rich, I'm not even "kinda dirty" rich. I probably am a bit on the "just plain dumb" side though. Fact is, over the past 30 some years, I've collected a lot of coins, some nice, some not so nice, but, over time, "incidentally" made money when I sold/traded them. My entire collection is only worth 15 to 20K, and, if they were worth only $100 tomorrow, I truly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just a hobby, and the cash outlay, over all those years, really amounts to nothing. Kind of the same with my antique tractors, I'd never get back close to the money I have in them, but I enjoy them all the same.
After actually reading what I just wrote, I guess I am "just plain dumb"! Seemed more logical before I actually typed and read it.......
<< <i>"Unless one is filthy rich, to go out and put $1500 into a coin and not care if one gets it all back is just plain dumb IMO. Most of us work hard for our money and choose to spend it wisely and that includes being mindful of the significant financial investment [not the traditional type here] we make in our coins. "
I see your point, and I'm certainly not filthy rich, I'm not even "kinda dirty" rich. I probably am a bit on the "just plain dumb" side though. Fact is, over the past 30 some years, I've collected a lot of coins, some nice, some not so nice, but, over time, "incidentally" made money when I sold/traded them. My entire collection is only worth 15 to 20K, and, if they were worth only $100 tomorrow, I truly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just a hobby, and the cash outlay, over all those years, really amounts to nothing. Kind of the same with my antique tractors, I'd never get back close to the money I have in them, but I enjoy them all the same.
After actually reading what I just wrote, I guess I am "just plain dumb"! Seemed more logical before I actually typed and read it....... >>
Not making judgement on anyone's intellectual prowess, but unless one is talking face value or a couple bux for a coin, how could anyone not really care if they ever get all or most of their $$$ back? Thats one of the reasons for buying right the first time, at least to me anyhoo.
No offense taken, I was just remarking that I am, indeed, "just plain dumb" sometimes :-)
I really don't think about getting my $$$ back though. If I need a Classic Large Cent (and nice midgrades are fairly hard to find), I'll jump on one in either holder if it comes for sale at the right price! If it's in an NGC holder (and it's "nice"), I'll pay MORE than the PCGS price just to get it. If nobody else on the planet would pay half as much (because it's in the "wrong" holder), it wouldn't bother me in the least. The only time I concern myself with profit, is on the modern mint stuff that I will flip to finance my own collection.
I will add this though... I have a NICE Classic Cent (probably VF30), with NICE color, that I sent to NGC a year and a half ago. It came back "improperly cleaned". I tried it again a couple months ago, and it again came back "improperly cleaned". I've been collecting Large Cents for over 30 years, and I'm confident of my ability to grade them. This was a NICE coin! It may have been cleaned at some time in the past 150+ years, but was NICER than most slabbed (either service) coins. My beef with the TPG's is that they have both become TOO TIGHT on early copper! They are now rejecting coins that are OBVIOUSLY better than coins that are already slabbed. I think anyone on this board that collects early copper would agree...