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The current coin market of PCGS and NGC
Halfhunter06
Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
It seems every day now that PCGS pulls farther and farther ahead of NGC in market respectability. Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here?
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<< <i>Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here? >>
And some sell for the same... (random Teletrade completed auction)
1877
View this lot
1878CC Morgan PCGS 64
Nearly Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. Designed by George T. Morgan, this design lasted from 1878 to 1921. About 2.2 million pieces struck. $425
1878
View this lot
1878CC Morgan NGC 64 $425
Some sell for less, some sell for the same sooooooooooooo???????? As far as "some refuse to buy them" ...go elsewhere. They actually DO sell
<< <i>It seems every day now that PCGS pulls farther and farther ahead of NGC in market respectability. Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here? >>
This is why many astute coin people buy prefer to buy solid NGC, ANACS and even PCI coins and then cross them to PCGS so that when it comes time to sell they get the maximum amount.
For example i just recently sent in a PCI AU 58 $5 Indian for crossover. Guess what it came back as?
Top dealers buy coins, not plastic. And if you look at their sites coins with the same grade, one pcgs the other ngc it's really a toss up on price depending on which piece of plastic has the better coin. Perhaps in one or two series their may be a real difference for specialists, but in the US stuff I collect (early commems) I see no difference at all. Heavans to Betsy, I see even CAC has stickered some NGC coins, obviusly they don't know what they are doing.
Now I'll go have some kool aid and see if I feel better.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
you're speaking of "market" as a whole, which is incorrect. PCGS is pretty much a one trick pony, have some perceived advantages with US coins only. NGC has a virtual monopoly on everything else, having slabbed all of the 7 figure world coins, and 90% of the six figure ones.
<< <i>you're speaking of "market" as a whole, which is incorrect. PCGS is pretty much a one trick pony, have some perceived advantages with US coins only. NGC has a virtual monopoly on everything else, having slabbed all of the 7 figure world coins, and 90% of the six figure ones. >>
I think you are correct with that. I have 3 world coins I would like to send them as a matter of fact, but they have a 5 coin minimum.
<< <i>Fine with me, let everyone run up the prices of PCGS slabbed material. There's a lot of nice coins in NGC and ANACS plastic. I buy coins... not chunks of plastic. >>
I'm glad to see not everyone is drunk on the Koolaide.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The current MS/PF auction market seems to state the opposite of this statement. NGC coins still bring less than PCGS unless the coin is distinctly of superb quality for the grade. In the current environment I would expect fewer and fewer dealers to be willing to take the risk for what they feel are "solid" NGC coins in the hopes of getting PCGS-type money for them. And the idea that one can simply "cross" a superior PCGS/NGC coin on its own merits is also refuted by the low cross rates at both major services. While the very sharpest of graders may be able to negotiate these waters at times, the vast majority of collectors and dealers cannot. Everyone is free to collect iaw with their own tastes, preferences, and skill level. However don't expect the market to agree with you, even if you may be right.
roadrunner
<< <i>Fine with me, let everyone run up the prices of PCGS slabbed material. There's a lot of nice coins in NGC and ANACS plastic. I buy coins... not chunks of plastic. >>
Ditto. In fact, I buy most raw and then convert to plastic.
<< <i>I heard from a couple dealers recently that the new NGC slabs are tough, even tougher than PCGS in some series???? Can, anyone else back this up? >>
Great, maybe pay a simple re holder fee and BAM, for sale in the new NGC holder and everyone knows they were "tough" on grading.
<< <i>I heard from a couple dealers recently that the new NGC slabs are tough, even tougher than PCGS in some series???? Can, anyone else back this up? >>
It doesn't matter how tough NGC grades. An ordinary collector will rarely have the opportunity to buy an undergraded coin in an NGC holder. The vast majority of the time, what you have is the opportunity to buy the overgraded coin in the NGC holder. The undergraded and properly graded examples are tried ad nauseum for upgrade or crossover. So you end up buying them in a higher graded NGC holder or the same grade PCGS holder - both at higher prices.
<< <i>I heard from a couple dealers recently that the new NGC slabs are tough, even tougher than PCGS in some series???? >>
You didn't hear it from me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I heard from a couple dealers recently that the new NGC slabs are tough, even tougher than PCGS in some series???? Can, anyone else back this up? >>
It doesn't matter how tough NGC grades. An ordinary collector will rarely have the opportunity to buy an undergraded coin in an NGC holder. The vast majority of the time, what you have is the opportunity to buy the overgraded coin in the NGC holder. The undergraded and properly graded examples are tried ad nauseum for upgrade or crossover. So you end up buying them in a higher graded NGC holder or the same grade PCGS holder - both at higher prices. >>
This is a perfect argument for learning how to grade on your own... and buy raw!
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<< <i>
<< <i>I heard from a couple dealers recently that the new NGC slabs are tough, even tougher than PCGS in some series???? >>
You didn't hear it from me. >>
Ok I'll bite. But what about the other one million coins slabbed at NGC prior. Not much to compare.. I must say this game can cost you if you don't learn how to grade yourself..
As I know some types of coin to grade, other's I don't have a clue. My trust is in PCGS..
I have a wreath cent in a SEGS holder, a flowing hair half in a PCI holder, multiple ANACS holders, and of course NGC and PCGS holders. If the coin is nice, I dont give a sh*t about the plastic.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Having said that, there is more to collecting coins than the plastic. Saying one service is better than the other really serves no purpose other than to create a lemming mentality... never been much for bandwagons, following the heard or jumping off cliffs.
edited to add:
Not all coins and grades are equal regardless of the TPG
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
And an upcoming sale of over 75 bust halves in average NGC grade 66( many 67's also) will not bring current 66 money. Partly because of the economy, but mostly because of the quality of the coins.
At lower grades, NGC seems to do fine, in many cases. But at Gem or better, it is the PCGS graded halves that will be bought and sold more easily.
So, I believe the market is telling us that PCGS is the preferred certification company. Not to say that some dealers try to get full current values for NGC halves in Gem or better. I may have paid such prices early in the game, til I experienced 10 years of watching prices realized at auction, and what the more knowledgeable dealers prefer.
<< <i>Both NGC and PGS are excellent TPG companies.
Having said that, there is more to collecting coins than the plastic. Saying one service is better than the other really serves no purpose other than to create a lemming mentality... never been much for bandwagons, following the heard or jumping off cliffs.
edited to add:
Not all coins and grades are equal regardless of the TPG >>
No need to be a lemming, or get on a band wagon, any person can look at the historical data from auction prices realized. For some series in some grades it is almost a full point grade difference in price, on average. For other series in some grades there is only a small difference, and it is not worth mentioning. Best to learn which is which, before spending the money.
He told me he just picked up an NGC "Fine" 1916 S Mercury dime for three bucks, and it was perfect for his low grade type set. I laughed and asked was this one of his goals in numismatics "a plasticized low grade type set ? " He laughed and said " Of course !!!, .. even got a bust half in NGC holder for $25."
So with that said, my advice to any new person reading this, is to pick up the hobby now. It's a great time to get into coins. We cannot reach our goals if we don't set them, and we cannot dream if we cannot aspire to achieve something. ANYTHING.
Thankfully, one doesn't have to be rich to enjoy this hobby of kings.
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i can find little to argue with in this simple statement.
i personally submit to both PCSG and NGC, own both PCGS and NGC coins and look at coins in both company holders. the truth is in what generally can be found, not in the fact that if you look you can find the NGC coin that will cross or is the equal to its PCGS counterpart. if you pay attention to what dealers and collectors say at shows and in shops it can help answer the question. here's what i tend to hear:
about PCGS-----they are very strict.
about NGC-----they tend to overgarde, they regularly have trouble with attributions.
the general consensus among dealers is that if all things are equal they prefer the coin in a PCGS holder mainly because it will sell easier. among collectors, they tend to feel more confident about the coin's grade and designations.
poeple being the majority of collectors and dealers
the true expert graders are making money from these market inefficiencies
<< <i>
<< <i>Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here? >>
And some sell for the same... (random Teletrade completed auction)
1877
View this lot
1878CC Morgan PCGS 64
Nearly Gem. Well struck. Pleasing surfaces. Designed by George T. Morgan, this design lasted from 1878 to 1921. About 2.2 million pieces struck. $425
1878
View this lot
1878CC Morgan NGC 64 $425
Some sell for less, some sell for the same sooooooooooooo???????? As far as "some refuse to buy them" ...go elsewhere. They actually DO sell >>
Well this isnt like proof theorems in math where a singular counter example proves the whole theory wrong. For every "random" equality find, you can research and find a dozen isntances proving PCGS gets the better money. 1955-D washies in MS66 come to mind as one example.
Look at the coins- that tells the story more than the plastic
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>you're speaking of "market" as a whole, which is incorrect. PCGS is pretty much a one trick pony, have some perceived advantages with US coins only. NGC has a virtual monopoly on everything else, having slabbed all of the 7 figure world coins, and 90% of the six figure ones. >>
There must be another reason that 90% of the 6 figger coins are in NGC plarstic besides the implication that NGC is the better service. If PCGS graded coins bring more $$$ as stated by the OP then why would you want your spendy coins in NGC plastic unless they have problems or won't cross.
<< <i>It's all about the "PCGS ONLY" Registry..... >>
Yup. Go look over ta NGC; if it warn't for PCGS stuff there wouldn't be much of a Registry there. Most folks can't afford to have Registry grade coins for each service.
you get alot more bargains in ngc holders for sure.
oh by the way, i do not own nice coins in either holder......
K S
<< <i>it's pretty obvious that ngc dominates the mkt to a degree pcgs only dreams of. >>
What have you been smokin' man?
Sounds like you got ahold of some killer weed
GrandAm
<< <i>it's laughable that any kind of objective opinion could be expected ON THE PCGS BOARDS of this issue. from someone who owns ZERO coins in either holder, & had no bias whatsoever, it's pretty obvious that ngc dominates the mkt to a degree pcgs only dreams of. there are far more nice coins in ngc holders then there are in pcgs holders but that could easily be because they own such a huge chunk of the mkt.
you get alot more bargains in ngc holders for sure.
oh by the way, i do not own nice coins in either holder......
K S >>
If we're talking 'nice coin' vs 'nice for the grade coin', he's got a point - NGC usually gives such a high grade to the really nice coins that they are forever in that holder.
Edited to add an example. Here's an MS69 1874 dime in the CSNS auction. I'd hazard a guess that this coin just won't cross - not because it's not a nice coin but because of the grade on the holder. So here's a 'nice coin' that will probably remain in an NGC holder forever: http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1124&Lot_No=2257#photo
<< <i>
For example i just recently sent in a PCI AU 58 $5 Indian for crossover. Guess what it came back as? >>
Probably 62. Lucky eBay doesn't let people get cheated by banning mention of PCI or the $400 value. But if the same coin is in a PCGS slab graded 62, you are permitted to mention that it's "worth" $800
<< <i>
about PCGS-----they are very strict.
about NGC-----they tend to overgarde. >>
The services all have their own grading standards which are proprietary. The actual or perceived differences are reflected in the market price.
Strict compared to WHAT? Overgraded compared to WHAT?
<< <i>
<< <i>you're speaking of "market" as a whole, which is incorrect. PCGS is pretty much a one trick pony, have some perceived advantages with US coins only. NGC has a virtual monopoly on everything else, having slabbed all of the 7 figure world coins, and 90% of the six figure ones. >>
There must be another reason that 90% of the 6 figger coins are in NGC plarstic besides the implication that NGC is the better service. If PCGS graded coins bring more $$$ as stated by the OP then why would you want your spendy coins in NGC plastic unless they have problems or won't cross. >>
step away from the kool-aid for a moment.
First of all, for the types of coins that I outlined, NGC is the perceived leader by a long shot. In fact, many of these high dollar coins were former PCGS top pops, crossed to NGC (many times downgraded at NGC too). Other than the US coin market, NGC holds a huge advantage.
strict compared to everyone else, overgraded compared to PCGS. clear things up any???
BTW, you forgot to cut/past they regularly have trouble with attributions. and please remember that these are the things collectors and dealers tend to say to me when discussing coins encapsulated by each service.
<< <i>Look at the coins- that tells the story more than the plastic >>
Pop reports tell a heck of a "big picture" story too. Here's one tiny example:
I recently bought an MS67 PCGS 1950-D Jefferson nickel in a Heritage auction. Total pop in that grade at PCGS is 10. Total pop in that grade at NGC is 204.
In other words, if you pay $500 for a coin in an NGC holder then sell it two years later for $600 how is that any different than paying $550 for the coin in PCGS plastic and then selling it for $650? Either way you make the same amount--in fact, you make a larger profit from a percentage standpoint.
<< <i>the notion that the disparity in prices for PCGS and NGC holdered coins is a result of the Set Registries hosted by each service is nothing short of insanity!!!
Just call me insane! Maybe if I drink more Kool-Aid, my electrolytes would go up, and I could become normal!
<< <i>If you pay less for a coin in an NGC holder than you would for the same coin in a PCGS holder then what difference does it make which holder brings the most money when you sell the coin?
In other words, if you pay $500 for a coin in an NGC holder then sell it two years later for $600 how is that any different than paying $550 for the coin in PCGS plastic and then selling it for $650? Either way you make the same amount--in fact, you make a larger profit from a percentage standpoint. >>
You REALLY need to start getting with the program my friend.
You are using logic here that can not be understood by the Kool Aid effected mind.
If you buy a coin in XYZ 67 plastic for the same price you would pay for ABC 66 plastic.....
Maybe XYZ plastic grades about a grade looser than ABC plastic and the 2 coins are really the same grade.
Nah....ABC is just better and sells for more
Now we return to your regularly scheduled program.....
<< <i>
<< <i>Look at the coins- that tells the story more than the plastic >>
Pop reports tell a heck of a "big picture" story too. Here's one tiny example:
I recently bought an MS67 PCGS 1950-D Jefferson nickel in a Heritage auction. Total pop in that grade at PCGS is 10. Total pop in that grade at NGC is 204. >>
proof that ngc dominates
K S
<< <i>proof that ngc dominates >>
GrandAm
I think thats proof NGC is more liberal in its grading than PCGS..which is NGC's downfall and reason for being number 2
I prefer PCGS but I would never go to NGC and post how superior I feel that PCGS is to NGC on NGC's own Forum.
To each his own but you should "Spread the
JMHO, GrandAm