If you pay less for a coin in an NGC holder than you would for the same coin in a PCGS holder then what difference does it make which holder brings the most money when you sell the coin?
doesn't this tend to support the OP's original statement pasted just below?? -----It seems every day now that PCGS pulls farther and farther ahead of NGC in market respectability. Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here?
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
Ummm, maybe because they can charge you more???
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
Shouldn't those prominent dealers have told you to look at the coin and grade it/value it yourself and not give a flying cr@p about who put plastic and a label around it?
<< It seems every day now that PCGS pulls farther and farther ahead of NGC in market respectability. >>
This statement is delusional and has NOTHING to do with respectability.
There are many - I repeat, MANY, OVERGRADED coins in PCGS holders.
I see them all the time and can't help wonder just how in the world did these blatanly obvious dogs, make their way into such a "respectable" (ahem) tpg's holder!
PCGS has and is losing credibility in areas such as the Omaha Bank Hoard.
Nearly all the coins from this "hoard" / this mass bulk submission, are OVER-graded.
"Why don't people who feel such for NGC Coins go across the street and "Spread the LOVE" for them over there instead of posting on the PCGS boards about how great NGC is?"
So, anyone who has a nice coin in an NGC holder should be banished from this board? I've always said that there are nice coins in both flavors, and there are dogs in both flavors. It seems that attacking NGC is favorable here, and any defending of NGC is not allowed. Personnally, I will continue to buy the COIN I like in whatever slab it happens to be in. I do take offense when people are saying my NGC slabbed coins are overgraded junk when they haven't even seen them! As for ATS, many PCGS coins are posted, and they receive compliments. Seems like people ATS are more about individual coins, and less about plastic. The reason I like this forum is that it gets more traffic, so there is more to read.
<< <i>Why don't people who feel such for NGC Coins go across the street and "Spread the LOVE" for them over there instead of posting on the PCGS boards about how great NGC is? >>
you talkin to me?
i don't own a single coin in a ngc holder. not even ONE. yet any idiot walking through any coin show can see that ngc totally dominates the pla$tic mkt. it's as obvious as the knot on your head. there are FAR MORE coins in ngc holders, & FAR MORE NICE COINS in their holders. now, that being a FACT, it is also a FACT that there are FAR MORE CRAPPY COINS in ngc holders then pcgs.
trying to deny these facts is moronic. the only people that claim otherwise are the ones that feel the need to justify OVERPAYING for coins in pcgs holders by claiming that pcgs coins are worth more. that's rubbish.
i have NEVER EVER said "ngc is better then pcgs", & i have NEVER EVER said "pcgs is better then ngc", because i do'nt believe either statement. far as i'm concerned they are both about equaly inconsistent in their grading.
<< <i>I prefer PCGS but I would never go to NGC and post how superior I feel that PCGS is to NGC on NGC's own Forum.
To each his own but you should "Spread the " in the proper place.
JMHO, GrandAm >>
"love" ain't the issue here. REALITY is. & the reality is that ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt, whether you want to admit it or not.
THAT DOES NOT MAKE NGC THE "BETTER" CO.!!! but that is a statement of reality
by "dominate" do you mean grades a larger number of coins, a larger percentage of the overall coins on the open market?? if that's what you mean then i'd have to agree although i think "dominate" is a bit overstating things. i mentioned that in a thread several years ago when it was clear that the number of slabbed coins for sale were in NGC holders. the trouble, as you also mentioned, is that the volume of overgraded coins in NGC holders is also higher and i perceive that from a percentage standpoint it's higher than the volume graded. that is where the problem lies.
it is also an unargueable point that the perception among a majority of hobbyists is clear; NGC tends to grade less strictly than PCGS. we can each interpret that as we choose. it has been well documented that large submitters/flippers have been willing to accept an inflated grade and a lower price with an NGC graded coin in the past simply because the NGC turnaround time was better, it was a "cash flow" solution. that speaks volumes to me. it is also well documented that it is common practice to have coins graded by NGC and then try for the PCGS cross at a much higher rate than the other way around. that also speaks loudly.
from my lofty perch, i don't think more NGC coins graded and available for sale is what most of us understand "dominate" to be meaning in discussions like this. it is more about where the average collector feels his money is better spent. it is more about where the average collector feels more confident about the correctness of the TPG opinion. it is more about where the average collector feels his best return at point of sale will be found and which holder will be easiest to sell at a break even or profit point. the average collectors that i speak with who name PCGS as the "yes" answer to these points tend to be in the majority.
i would contend, again this from someone who cares not 1 whit about a coin holder, that more money is made by more people dealing in ngc slabs then in pcgs slabs. i would also contend that more collectors buy ngc coins more often then pcgs, actually by a long shot. i make these claims based on actually watching transactions take place on the bourse floor.
like keets said, this is by no means a proclamation of what svc. is "better", it just represents the true mkt. the problem comes in when someone tries to claim that "this svc is better then that svc because the coins sell for more". that is like saying a mercedes is better then a volkswagen because it resales for more on the used car mkt.! & to state that "some dealers won't even look at ngc coins" is totally meaningless, since i can tell you right now that many dealers wo'nt look at pcgs coins! because they automatically assume they will be overpriced.
so if your gonna try to make a case that "this svc is better then that svc", at least have some kind of reasonable argument as to why you think thats the case. give us something useful, something we can quantify. is the holder stronger or more inert? is the turnaround time faster? is the customer service more responsive? is the grading fee lower? are there fewer counterfeit coins in one svc's holders? these are factors that we can all talk about on a even playing field.
but stupid arguments based on innuendo & presumptious unverifiable claims only weaken your argument & run counter to your goals, if your trying to make 1 svc. seem better then the other.
on the whole, & again i feel justified in being able to make a fairly objective observation since i do'nt care about either svc., i would say the reality is that from a collector standpoint, they are about equally inconsistent in grading, but from the business standpoint, that the ngc model is significantly more profitable then the pcgs model in the long run.
by "dominate" do you mean grades a larger number of coins, a larger percentage of the overall coins on the open market?? if that's what you mean then i'd have to agree although i think "dominate" is a bit overstating things. i mentioned that in a thread several years ago when it was clear that the number of slabbed coins for sale were in NGC holders. the trouble, as you also mentioned, is that the volume of overgraded coins in NGC holders is also higher and i perceive that from a percentage standpoint it's higher than the volume graded. that is where the problem lies. >>
So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded.
Basing one's assertion that NGC dominates the plastic market upon observation of the number of slabs for sale at shows seems kinda ... dorky. That could easily be the result of very slow sales for NGC material and very quick sales for PCGS material.
<< <i>he11 i know that. that's why it's a "stupid statement"
maybe someday you'll pull something useful out of your azz, you know like the top of your neck?
K S >>
Actually I'd bet those numbers are pretty close for silver eagles and other modern crap. Mite not be close for Morgans. 5-6 years ago the sentiment here was that PCGS overgraded by about 5% and undergraded about 5% with about 90% correct.
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
The fact that they would even say this at all suggests to me that maybe they perceive in you some level of newness to the hobby - most altruistically they may be trying to protect you from any limitation you may have when it comes surmising a coins merits for yourself, more likely they may be trying to steer you towards their inventory - in either case, obviously by not even looking at coins in other plastic you are drastically limiting your sources for potential great coins.
In other words, if you pay $500 for a coin in an NGC holder then sell it two years later for $600 how is that any different than paying $550 for the coin in PCGS plastic and then selling it for $650? Either way you make the same amount--in fact, you make a larger profit from a percentage standpoint.
In the current market, the NGC coin would not realize the $550 unless it was clearly superior for the grade, CAC'd, or solid with a "star." It would have to be clearly superior to a competing PCGS coin....not just close. The PCGS coin could just be decent to solid for the grade to realize that price. Given two identical and average for the grade coins in different holders using the above scenario, I'd estimate that the NGC coin would now fetch $375 and the PCGS coin $475. In other words you lost ground to the PCGS coin. The $50 you "saved" up front cost you $100 today. If the collector is one of those rare breeds that can pick out the PQ winners time after time, then this analysis doesn't really apply.
Considering that there is no real strength to the either TPG's type coin registry (ie very few serious competitors), the coins sell on their market supply/demand curve rather than on a REG set curve where things can get skewed dramatically as you approach pop tops. And in this arena it's clear that the disparity in pricing between PCGS and NGC is still there, and probably even larger than it was in 2006-2008 when all it took was a holder to sell the coin.
The example of using an amount paid without referencing a coin or a grade and even whether the coin is in demand really is an non-starter for a reasonable discussion-
What is the coin that some collector paid $600 for? Was it a quality coin? Was it blast white or did it have color? Is it a coin within a series that has interest?
This arm chair nonsense of saying who is the better TPG company without a discussion of what is actually in the plastic is completely worthless. This thread is sinking to the level of talk radio...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
New here, first post although I've been lurking for a while. I collect ancient Roman and also US Half-Cents, Indians and have some Bust Halves. I'm enjoying the many posts from people who know a whole heck of a lot more about collecting and the coin business than I ever will, even in my dreams.
I've had some experience with buying and observing slabbed coins. My impression has been that both PCGS and NGC do a great job of grading for the most part, but once in a while I'll see one that surprises me, going both ways, i.e., a coin that I consider overgraded and sometimes undergraded. And my experience with early American copper causes me to think they tilt toward overgrading.....when they are willing to set a grade.
Does anyone have any examples that they would be willing to post via pictures of specific coins that have, in their view, been improperly graded? I think that looking at some examples would be really interesting and helpful in the context of this discussion. Thanks, everyone, for all of the great information and knowledge you post here, and I hope to ultimately be able to contribute as well rather than simply being a sponge.
Welcome to the boards HardCase. Please contribute whenever you like and in any way you feel comfortable. If you can image some of your collection I, for one, would love to see it.
Not sure how long you have lurked here, but understand that there are some members who have a "cult like" belief that company XYZ is the only game in town and to even look at coins in ABC plastic is a mistake. Well.....what can you say, let them live in their self imposed closet.
The 2 big players grade to a different standard and those that can figure that out can put together a very nice collection in either slab. Those that drink the KoolAid (re-read this post to see who they are) can ignore over 50% of the coins in the marketplace and keep their heads in the sand.
i do not know about the rest of you folks.. but generally i am happier with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own.
<< <i>i do not know about the rest of you folks.. but generally i am happier with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own. >>
Hey fc, I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000 What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Now whatever your answer.... say 50 for example. Would you say that that EXACT same coin in NGC 50 plastic would have the same value of $1000 ? In other words the EXACT same coin would be in PCGS 40 OR NGC 50 plastic. Do you think their price should be the same?
Now, If you paid $1000 for the same EXACT coin in PCGS 40 plastic as you would in NGC 50 plastic what difference does it make? You have the EXACT same coin that you paid the same amount for.
Now I personally like the clear plastic PCGS holders better for aesthetic reasons, but I only buy the slab if I like the coin inside and the price is right for me, regardless the holder or the number on the label.
Hey fc, I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000 What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Why is there an assumption the exact coin would automatically grade higher at NGC?
This is the EXACT problem that makes this discussion worthless
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Hey fc, I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000 What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Why is there an assumption the exact coin would automatically grade higher at NGC?
This is the EXACT problem that makes this discussion worthless >>
This is not an assumption coinkat, it is a theoretical situation that may or may not occur.
<< <i>i do not know about the rest of you folks.. but generally i am happier with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own.
Hey fc, I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000 What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55? >>
You picked an interesting grade range to compare at that really will not help discuss this. An XF40 rarely has enough luster to be graded a 50 at any TPG. Now I can see a choice XF45 making its way into a 50-53 holder with grade inflation and market grading. Mr Winter has stated in his blog that over time a lot of southern gold that he considers a PQ 45 has squeaked its way into 50-53 holders.
Based on pics of older lib half eagles in older holders in XF they had a lot more luster back then.. then they do now. Any nice ones probably now reside in low AU holders. I like to think that is how I tend to grade coins. The early TPG days. Not the modern TPGs.
So i think this answers your question. A nice XF45 PCGS coin can more then likely get into a low AU NGC holder if it is graded the way I expect it to be. Easily seen wear but quite a bit of luster left. I have come to expect NGC to grade a bit more liberal then PCGS in the circulated grades and low MS.
But lets move on to the other part of your post.
<< <i>Now whatever your answer.... say 50 for example. Would you say that that EXACT same coin in NGC 50 plastic would have the same value of $1000 ? In other words the EXACT same coin would be in PCGS 40 OR NGC 50 plastic. Do you think their price should be the same? >>
For the rare date lib half eagles a PCGS 40 on average sells for less then a NGC AU50 from what i remember of auction results for the same date/mint. A lot of people buy the label and trust it.
<< <i>Now, If you paid $1000 for the same EXACT coin in PCGS 40 plastic as you would in NGC 50 plastic what difference does it make? You have the EXACT same coin that you paid the same amount for. >>
I wish that was possible but I have learned it is not. There are always exceptions to it of course. A PQ coin in 45-53 can have crazy prices attached to them based on eye appeal but the average stuff often sells by what the label says. Sad but true in my opinion.
ANACS is the one that is often discounted heavily and from the auction archives I have viewed at Heritage. Back in the day they had some awesome stuff in their holders that sold for a song compared to other TPGs in the same grade.
<< <i>Now I personally like the clear plastic PCGS holders better for aesthetic reasons, but I only buy the slab if I like the coin inside and the price is right for me, regardless the holder or the number on the label. >>
The trouble for me is that I look at the coin i see in an NGC AU50 holder and think that is a nice XF coin. I bid XF money and lost time after time. People play the game based on the label.
It is like expecting that PCGS MS62 coin with the slight rub to sell for AU58 money. It just does not happen over the last few years with the over exuberance going on. On ebay, people bid it right up to low MS money even though the light rub on the high points was visible to me. Tiara area, hair area, etc...
So i had better luck with PCGS graded coins, which in my opinion were graded slightly tougher and the label did not allow over exuberance to set in. I had a chance based on the merits of the coin and not the label.
But this is in the strange realm of lib half eagles where a coin with quite a bit of luster gone and slight rub somehow magically can get a MS grade. In other series they would laugh at that type of grading.
I hope there comes a day when people look at the coin, understand grading, and pay accordingly. Until then i will expect the label to rule. The coin has to be a real dog for people to pay enough attention not to bid it up to what the label says.
I will review this post and correct it once i reread it a few times.
<< <i>yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates >>
Dude,,,, if you can't see what this really proves then there is no hope for you.
GOOD LUCK to you in your pursuit of NGC coins
JMHO, GrandAm >>
get real, YOU can't seem to understand something as simple or as obvious as what i have stated. if most of a mkt. share belongs to just 1 co., then that co. is the dominant force in that mkt.
what in the he11 is so hard to understand about that???
it is plain & simple & all the other silly little trivial arguments are just noize.
the problem is that you can't understand that this does'nt make the dominant co. "better" somehow. it just means they are the dominant force, end of story.
<< <i>yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates >>
Dude,,,, if you can't see what this really proves then there is no hope for you.
GOOD LUCK to you in your pursuit of NGC coins
JMHO, GrandAm >>
get real, YOU can't seem to understand something as simple or as obvious as what i have stated. if most of a mkt. share belongs to just 1 co., then that co. is the dominant force in that mkt.
what in the he11 is so hard to understand about that???
it is plain & simple & all the other silly little trivial arguments are just noize.
the problem is that you can't understand that this does'nt make the dominant co. "better" somehow. it just means they are the dominant force, end of story.
K S >>
Dominant means better...that why they are dominent.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Sunday, April 29, 2007 PCGS vs NGC Grading: Apples and Oranges
NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity.
Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade?
Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS.
The above article sums up my point quite nicely. NGC may do more volume on some coins but that is due to the fact the grading standards are much lower than PCGS standards. Therefore NGC coins will grade higher than the same coin at PCGS.
I have NEVER seen any article suggesting that NGC grades stricter than PCGS.
THIS is why when you have a PCGS Coin and an NGC coin of the same date and grade the PCGS coin will bring more money, often time 2 or 3 times the money of a NGC coin.
Take my FAVORITE coin of choice,,,, Eisenhower Dollars. Compare PCGS & NGC prices for the same date and grade. In the Top POP Key Date Coins PCGS Coins will bring 2x, 3x or even 4x the money of NGC coins.
The point is not who grades more coins, the point is who gives the better value for the money,,,, if you are rating a TPG service based on selling prices of their coins there can be only (1) choice,,, PCGS.
Sure there are people who play the game,,,, myself included. Can you send a coin to NGC and get a MS65 grade whereas the same coin at PCGS would only grade MS64? Often times the answer is yes. Will the NGC MS65 sell for more than the PCGS MS64? Often times the anser is yes.
That is not the point. If you want the VERY BEST coins possible in your personal set you stand the best chance of doing so by buying PCGS coin.
Put together a set of NGC MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Then put together a set of PCGS MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Which set has better eye appeal? Which set will sell for more money.
I will give you only (1) guess as to what my opinion is on this question
<< <i>NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity. >>
A totally meaningless sampling. Think about the manner, such as bulk w/minimum grades specified, in which coins can be submitter for grading.
<< <i>Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade? >>
If the public wouldn't buy NGC slabbed coins then dealers wouldn't submit to them. Also, they have fine customer service which is always a plus.
<< <i>Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS. >>
Grading is not a science and I've never seen anything to suggest that their grading not 'accurate and meaningful'.
Sunday, April 29, 2007 PCGS vs NGC Grading: Apples and Oranges
NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity.
Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade?
Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS.
The above article sums up my point quite nicely. NGC may do more volume on some coins but that is due to the fact the grading standards are much lower than PCGS standards. Therefore NGC coins will grade higher than the same coin at PCGS.
I have NEVER seen any article suggesting that NGC grades stricter than PCGS.
THIS is why when you have a PCGS Coin and an NGC coin of the same date and grade the PCGS coin will bring more money, often time 2 or 3 times the money of a NGC coin.
Take my FAVORITE coin of choice,,,, Eisenhower Dollars. Compare PCGS & NGC prices for the same date and grade. In the Top POP Key Date Coins PCGS Coins will bring 2x, 3x or even 4x the money of NGC coins.
The point is not who grades more coins, the point is who gives the better value for the money,,,, if you are rating a TPG service based on selling prices of their coins there can be only (1) choice,,, PCGS.
Sure there are people who play the game,,,, myself included. Can you send a coin to NGC and get a MS65 grade whereas the same coin at PCGS would only grade MS64? Often times the answer is yes. Will the NGC MS65 sell for more than the PCGS MS64? Often times the anser is yes.
That is not the point. If you want the VERY BEST coins possible in your personal set you stand the best chance of doing so by buying PCGS coin.
Put together a set of NGC MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Then put together a set of PCGS MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Which set has better eye appeal? Which set will sell for more money.
I will give you only (1) guess as to what my opinion is on this question
JMHO, GrandAm >>
according to your brilliant logic bentley is the dominant car maker over toyota, because a bentley sells for more.
pretty stupid, huh?
i'd guess toyota has more mkt share then bentley because they are a better co. (besides bentley is out of business i think)
i'd guess mcdonald's has more mkt share then white castle because they have better products & are the better co.
i'd guess microsoft sells more operating systems then sun because more people prefer microsoft & are the better co.
i'd guess intel sells more processors then motorola because they have better processors & are the better co.
i'd guess nike sells more shoes then converse because they are the better shoe co.
i'd guess best buy stayed in business over circuit city because the were the better co.
i'd guess wal-mart kicks saks fifth avenue's butt in sales because they are the better co.
i'd guess busch beer outsells mgd because busch beer tastes better & they are the better co.
is this really hard to understand???
make excuses all you want, but it still comes down to, the dominant co. getting more mkt. share, plain & simple.
no matter what you say about 'this coin in this pla$tic sold for more then that coin in that pla$tic', that is meaningless gibberish. the fact is still, more coins are in ngc holders. BY A LONG SHOT.
it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here.
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here. >>
If you don't own a single slabbed coin how can you even begin to feel qualified to even be in this discussion?
I think you should go join the "RAW COIN" Forum hosted by Chattanooga Coin Company
Again, JMHO GrandAm
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. >>
BTW, I don't only buy slabs. I buy lots of raw coins and have submitted many thounsands of coins to PCGS for grading. Most of the coins I sell I have submitted myself.
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here. >>
If you don't own a single slabbed coin how can you even begin to feel qualified to even be in this discussion? >>
duh, ding dong, uh i've BOUGHT TONS of coins that used to be in $labs. DUUUuuuhhh. i am well into my SECOND 55 gallon drum of emptied $labs.
<< <i>
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. >>
BTW, I don't only buy slabs. I buy lots of raw coins and have submitted many thounsands of coins to PCGS for grading. Most of the coins I sell I have submitted myself. >>
oh yeah, becuase naturally someone who submits 1000s of coins to pcgs & none to ngc could'nt possibly be biased!
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
i would stake any bet any time that i have zero pla$tic bias, especially compared to you!!!
Right now i have about 40 NGC graded coins, 6 PCGS and 4 ANACS graded coins. My favorite coin is in a ANACS holder. I looked long and hard for the 6 PCGS graded coins. I do believe that they will be easier to sell and bring more when the time comes due to the brainwash factor.
I would say that NGC has the most slabs out there for the unwashed masses to chose from.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Comments
doesn't this tend to support the OP's original statement pasted just below??
-----It seems every day now that PCGS pulls farther and farther ahead of NGC in market respectability. Many dealers buy NGC for less, or refuse to even buy them at all..what is happening here?
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
Ummm, maybe because they can charge you more???
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
Shouldn't those prominent dealers have told you to look at the coin and grade it/value it yourself and not give a flying cr@p about who put plastic and a label around it?
This statement is delusional and has NOTHING to do with respectability.
There are many - I repeat, MANY, OVERGRADED coins in PCGS holders.
I see them all the time and can't help wonder just how in the world did these
blatanly obvious dogs, make their way into such a "respectable" (ahem) tpg's holder!
PCGS has and is losing credibility in areas such as the Omaha Bank Hoard.
Nearly all the coins from this "hoard" / this mass bulk submission, are OVER-graded.
Like it or not, it's FACT!
So, anyone who has a nice coin in an NGC holder should be banished from this board? I've always said that there are nice coins in both flavors, and there are dogs in both flavors. It seems that attacking NGC is favorable here, and any defending of NGC is not allowed. Personnally, I will continue to buy the COIN I like in whatever slab it happens to be in. I do take offense when people are saying my NGC slabbed coins are overgraded junk when they haven't even seen them! As for ATS, many PCGS coins are posted, and they receive compliments. Seems like people ATS are more about individual coins, and less about plastic. The reason I like this forum is that it gets more traffic, so there is more to read.
<< <i>Why don't people who feel such
you talkin to me?
i don't own a single coin in a ngc holder. not even ONE. yet any idiot walking through any coin show can see that ngc totally dominates the pla$tic mkt. it's as obvious as the knot on your head. there are FAR MORE coins in ngc holders, & FAR MORE NICE COINS in their holders. now, that being a FACT, it is also a FACT that there are FAR MORE CRAPPY COINS in ngc holders then pcgs.
trying to deny these facts is moronic. the only people that claim otherwise are the ones that feel the need to justify OVERPAYING for coins in pcgs holders by claiming that pcgs coins are worth more. that's rubbish.
i have NEVER EVER said "ngc is better then pcgs", & i have NEVER EVER said "pcgs is better then ngc", because i do'nt believe either statement. far as i'm concerned they are both about equaly inconsistent in their grading.
<< <i>I prefer PCGS but I would never go to NGC and post how superior I feel that PCGS is to NGC on NGC's own Forum.
To each his own but you should "Spread the
JMHO, GrandAm >>
"love" ain't the issue here. REALITY is. & the reality is that ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt, whether you want to admit it or not.
THAT DOES NOT MAKE NGC THE "BETTER" CO.!!! but that is a statement of reality
K S
by "dominate" do you mean grades a larger number of coins, a larger percentage of the overall coins on the open market?? if that's what you mean then i'd have to agree although i think "dominate" is a bit overstating things. i mentioned that in a thread several years ago when it was clear that the number of slabbed coins for sale were in NGC holders. the trouble, as you also mentioned, is that the volume of overgraded coins in NGC holders is also higher and i perceive that from a percentage standpoint it's higher than the volume graded. that is where the problem lies.
it is also an unargueable point that the perception among a majority of hobbyists is clear; NGC tends to grade less strictly than PCGS. we can each interpret that as we choose. it has been well documented that large submitters/flippers have been willing to accept an inflated grade and a lower price with an NGC graded coin in the past simply because the NGC turnaround time was better, it was a "cash flow" solution. that speaks volumes to me. it is also well documented that it is common practice to have coins graded by NGC and then try for the PCGS cross at a much higher rate than the other way around. that also speaks loudly.
from my lofty perch, i don't think more NGC coins graded and available for sale is what most of us understand "dominate" to be meaning in discussions like this. it is more about where the average collector feels his money is better spent. it is more about where the average collector feels more confident about the correctness of the TPG opinion. it is more about where the average collector feels his best return at point of sale will be found and which holder will be easiest to sell at a break even or profit point. the average collectors that i speak with who name PCGS as the "yes" answer to these points tend to be in the majority.
like keets said, this is by no means a proclamation of what svc. is "better", it just represents the true mkt. the problem comes in when someone tries to claim that "this svc is better then that svc because the coins sell for more". that is like saying a mercedes is better then a volkswagen because it resales for more on the used car mkt.! & to state that "some dealers won't even look at ngc coins" is totally meaningless, since i can tell you right now that many dealers wo'nt look at pcgs coins! because they automatically assume they will be overpriced.
so if your gonna try to make a case that "this svc is better then that svc", at least have some kind of reasonable argument as to why you think thats the case. give us something useful, something we can quantify. is the holder stronger or more inert? is the turnaround time faster? is the customer service more responsive? is the grading fee lower? are there fewer counterfeit coins in one svc's holders? these are factors that we can all talk about on a even playing field.
but stupid arguments based on innuendo & presumptious unverifiable claims only weaken your argument & run counter to your goals, if your trying to make 1 svc. seem better then the other.
on the whole, & again i feel justified in being able to make a fairly objective observation since i do'nt care about either svc., i would say the reality is that from a collector standpoint, they are about equally inconsistent in grading, but from the business standpoint, that the ngc model is significantly more profitable then the pcgs model in the long run.
ramble on!
K S
<< <i>ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt
by "dominate" do you mean grades a larger number of coins, a larger percentage of the overall coins on the open market?? if that's what you mean then i'd have to agree although i think "dominate" is a bit overstating things. i mentioned that in a thread several years ago when it was clear that the number of slabbed coins for sale were in NGC holders. the trouble, as you also mentioned, is that the volume of overgraded coins in NGC holders is also higher and i perceive that from a percentage standpoint it's higher than the volume graded. that is where the problem lies. >>
So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded.
<< <i>So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded. >>
prove it! just show us your 550 examples. lets see your 50 overgraded pcgs coins & 500 overgraded ngc coins.
or, stop making stupid statements.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded. >>
prove it! just show us your 550 examples. lets see your 50 overgraded pcgs coins & 500 overgraded ngc coins.
or, stop making stupid statements.
K S >>
I think he pulled these numbers out of his azz.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded. >>
prove it! just show us your 550 examples. lets see your 50 overgraded pcgs coins & 500 overgraded ngc coins.
or, stop making stupid statements.
K S >>
I think he pulled these numbers out of his azz. >>
Yes, it was simply an illustrative example.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So I send 500 coins to PCGS and 50 or 10% come back overgraded, but if I send 1500 coins to NGC then 500 or 33% come back overgraded. >>
prove it! just show us your 550 examples. lets see your 50 overgraded pcgs coins & 500 overgraded ngc coins.
or, stop making stupid statements.
K S >>
I think he pulled these numbers out of his azz. >>
Yes, it was simply an illustrative example. >>
Some people will take these numbers literally so put them back where you got them.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
maybe someday you'll pull something useful out of your azz, you know like the top of your neck?
K S
<< <i>the reality is that ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt, >>
Again I would ask what kind of WEED have you been smoking????
Just look at the POP numbers for Modern MS70 / PR70 coins. You will see how much less strick NGC is when you see the numbers,,,,,
And again I would say if you think so highly of NGC go ATS and preach your sermon over there.
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>he11 i know that. that's why it's a "stupid statement"
maybe someday you'll pull something useful out of your azz, you know like the top of your neck?
K S >>
Actually I'd bet those numbers are pretty close for silver eagles and other modern crap. Mite not be close for Morgans. 5-6 years ago the sentiment here was that PCGS overgraded by about 5% and undergraded about 5% with about 90% correct.
Auction results will usually reflect that the more attractive coin brought the better price.
There really is not much to be gained from the direction of this thread...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>if it's about the coin, then why have two prominent dealers that I talked to urged me to stick with PCGS-graded Peace Dollars and not touch NGC-graded Peace Dollars? >>
The fact that they would even say this at all suggests to me that maybe they perceive in you some level of newness to the hobby - most altruistically they may be trying to protect you from any limitation you may have when it comes surmising a coins merits for yourself, more likely they may be trying to steer you towards their inventory - in either case, obviously by not even looking at coins in other plastic you are drastically limiting your sources for potential great coins.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>the reality is that ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt, >>
Again I would ask what kind of WEED have you been smoking????
Just look at the POP numbers for Modern MS70 / PR70 coins. You will see how much less strick NGC is when you see the numbers,,,,, >>
you can ask silly questions all you want, but it wo'nt change the fact, which is that ngc dominates the pla$tic mkt!
yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates. FAR MORE COINS are in ngc pla$tic then pcgs.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>the reality is that ngc dominate the pla$tic mkt, >>
Again I would ask what kind of WEED have you been smoking????
Just look at the POP numbers for Modern MS70 / PR70 coins. You will see how much less strick NGC is when you see the numbers,,,,, >>
you can ask silly questions all you want, but it wo'nt change the fact, which is that ngc dominates the pla$tic mkt!
yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates. FAR MORE COINS are in ngc pla$tic then pcgs.
K S >>
Karl you are a authority on plastic and you hate plastic. How did you become such a authority? Closet plastic collector? Fess up!
Ken
<< <i>yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates >>
Dude,,,, if you can't see what this really proves then there is no hope for you.
GOOD LUCK to you in your pursuit of NGC coins
JMHO, GrandAm
In the current market, the NGC coin would not realize the $550 unless it was clearly superior for the grade, CAC'd, or solid with a "star." It would have to be clearly superior to a competing PCGS coin....not just close. The PCGS coin could just be decent to solid for the grade to realize that price. Given two identical and average for the grade coins in different holders using the above scenario, I'd estimate that the NGC coin would now fetch $375 and the PCGS coin $475. In other words you lost ground to the PCGS coin. The $50 you "saved" up front cost you $100 today. If the collector is one of those rare breeds that can pick out the PQ winners time after time, then this analysis doesn't really apply.
Considering that there is no real strength to the either TPG's type coin registry (ie very few serious competitors), the coins sell on their market supply/demand curve rather than on a REG set curve where things can get skewed dramatically as you approach pop tops. And in this arena it's clear that the disparity in pricing between PCGS and NGC is still there, and probably even larger than it was in 2006-2008 when all it took was a holder to sell the coin.
roadrunner
What is the coin that some collector paid $600 for? Was it a quality coin? Was it blast white or did it have color? Is it a coin within a series that has interest?
This arm chair nonsense of saying who is the better TPG company without a discussion of what is actually in the plastic is completely worthless. This thread is sinking to the level of talk radio...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I've had some experience with buying and observing slabbed coins. My impression has been that both PCGS and NGC do a great job of grading for the most part, but once in a while I'll see one that surprises me, going both ways, i.e., a coin that I consider overgraded and sometimes undergraded. And my experience with early American copper causes me to think they tilt toward overgrading.....when they are willing to set a grade.
Does anyone have any examples that they would be willing to post via pictures of specific coins that have, in their view, been improperly graded? I think that looking at some examples would be really interesting and helpful in the context of this discussion. Thanks, everyone, for all of the great information and knowledge you post here, and I hope to ultimately be able to contribute as well rather than simply being a sponge.
Please contribute whenever you like and in any way you feel comfortable.
If you can image some of your collection I, for one, would love to see it.
Not sure how long you have lurked here, but understand that there are some members who
have a "cult like" belief that company XYZ is the only game in town and to even look at coins in ABC plastic
is a mistake. Well.....what can you say, let them live in their self imposed closet.
The 2 big players grade to a different standard and those that can figure that out can put together a very
nice collection in either slab. Those that drink the KoolAid (re-read this post to see who they are) can ignore
over 50% of the coins in the marketplace and keep their heads in the sand.
with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the
NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own.
<< <i>i do not know about the rest of you folks.. but generally i am happier
with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the
NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own. >>
Hey fc,
I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000
What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Now whatever your answer.... say 50 for example. Would you say that that EXACT same coin in
NGC 50 plastic would have the same value of $1000 ? In other words the EXACT same coin would be
in PCGS 40 OR NGC 50 plastic. Do you think their price should be the same?
Now, If you paid $1000 for the same EXACT coin in PCGS 40 plastic as you would in NGC 50 plastic
what difference does it make? You have the EXACT same coin that you paid the same amount for.
Now I personally like the clear plastic PCGS holders better for aesthetic reasons, but I only buy the
slab if I like the coin inside and the price is right for me, regardless the holder or the number on the label.
I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000
What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Why is there an assumption the exact coin would automatically grade higher at NGC?
This is the EXACT problem that makes this discussion worthless
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Hey fc,
I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000
What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55?
Why is there an assumption the exact coin would automatically grade higher at NGC?
This is the EXACT problem that makes this discussion worthless >>
This is not an assumption coinkat, it is a theoretical situation that may or may not occur.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Then, the theoretical could be reversed.
You betcha it could
<< <i>i do not know about the rest of you folks.. but generally i am happier
with my PCGS lib half eagles and how they were graded versus the
NGC coins i owned.
I wonder if others feel that way about the coins they owned or own.
Hey fc,
I have a question for you and I know that you will answer honestly.
If you have a specific coin/year/mint in PCGS 40 plastic and it has a value of say $1000
What do you think NGC would grade that EXACT coin? 45? 50? 55? >>
You picked an interesting grade range to compare at that really will
not help discuss this. An XF40 rarely has enough luster to be graded
a 50 at any TPG. Now I can see a choice XF45 making its way into a
50-53 holder with grade inflation and market grading. Mr Winter has
stated in his blog that over time a lot of southern gold that he considers
a PQ 45 has squeaked its way into 50-53 holders.
Based on pics of older lib half eagles in older holders in XF they
had a lot more luster back then.. then they do now. Any nice ones
probably now reside in low AU holders. I like to think that is how I
tend to grade coins. The early TPG days. Not the modern TPGs.
So i think this answers your question. A nice XF45 PCGS coin can
more then likely get into a low AU NGC holder if it is graded the way
I expect it to be. Easily seen wear but quite a bit of luster left. I have
come to expect NGC to grade a bit more liberal then PCGS in the
circulated grades and low MS.
But lets move on to the other part of your post.
<< <i>Now whatever your answer.... say 50 for example. Would you say that that EXACT same coin in
NGC 50 plastic would have the same value of $1000 ? In other words the EXACT same coin would be
in PCGS 40 OR NGC 50 plastic. Do you think their price should be the same? >>
For the rare date lib half eagles a PCGS 40 on average sells for less
then a NGC AU50 from what i remember of auction results for the
same date/mint. A lot of people buy the label and trust it.
<< <i>Now, If you paid $1000 for the same EXACT coin in PCGS 40 plastic as you would in NGC 50 plastic
what difference does it make? You have the EXACT same coin that you paid the same amount for. >>
I wish that was possible but I have learned it is not. There are always
exceptions to it of course. A PQ coin in 45-53 can have crazy prices
attached to them based on eye appeal but the average stuff often
sells by what the label says. Sad but true in my opinion.
ANACS is the one that is often discounted heavily and from the auction
archives I have viewed at Heritage. Back in the day they had some
awesome stuff in their holders that sold for a song compared to other
TPGs in the same grade.
<< <i>Now I personally like the clear plastic PCGS holders better for aesthetic reasons, but I only buy the
slab if I like the coin inside and the price is right for me, regardless the holder or the number on the label. >>
The trouble for me is that I look at the coin i see in an NGC AU50 holder
and think that is a nice XF coin. I bid XF money and lost time after
time. People play the game based on the label.
It is like expecting that PCGS MS62 coin with the slight rub to sell for
AU58 money. It just does not happen over the last few years with
the over exuberance going on. On ebay, people bid it right up to low
MS money even though the light rub on the high points was visible
to me. Tiara area, hair area, etc...
So i had better luck with PCGS graded coins, which in my opinion
were graded slightly tougher and the label did not allow over exuberance to
set in. I had a chance based on the merits of the coin and not the label.
But this is in the strange realm of lib half eagles where a coin with
quite a bit of luster gone and slight rub somehow magically can get
a MS grade. In other series they would laugh at that type of grading.
I hope there comes a day when people look at the coin, understand
grading, and pay accordingly. Until then i will expect the label to rule.
The coin has to be a real dog for people to pay enough attention not
to bid it up to what the label says.
I will review this post and correct it once i reread it a few times.
<< <i>
<< <i>yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates >>
Dude,,,, if you can't see what this really proves then there is no hope for you.
GOOD LUCK to you in your pursuit of NGC coins
JMHO, GrandAm >>
get real, YOU can't seem to understand something as simple or as obvious as what i have stated. if most of a mkt. share belongs to just 1 co., then that co. is the dominant force in that mkt.
what in the he11 is so hard to understand about that???
it is plain & simple & all the other silly little trivial arguments are just noize.
the problem is that you can't understand that this does'nt make the dominant co. "better" somehow. it just means they are the dominant force, end of story.
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>yeah, DO look at the "pops" for modern 70s, & IT WILL PROVE that ngc dominates >>
Dude,,,, if you can't see what this really proves then there is no hope for you.
GOOD LUCK to you in your pursuit of NGC coins
JMHO, GrandAm >>
get real, YOU can't seem to understand something as simple or as obvious as what i have stated. if most of a mkt. share belongs to just 1 co., then that co. is the dominant force in that mkt.
what in the he11 is so hard to understand about that???
it is plain & simple & all the other silly little trivial arguments are just noize.
the problem is that you can't understand that this does'nt make the dominant co. "better" somehow. it just means they are the dominant force, end of story.
K S >>
Dominant means better...that why they are dominent.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Quote from an article I recently read:
Sunday, April 29, 2007
PCGS vs NGC Grading: Apples and Oranges
NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity.
Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade?
Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS.
The above article sums up my point quite nicely. NGC may do more volume on some coins but that is due to the fact the grading standards are much lower than PCGS standards. Therefore NGC coins will grade higher than the same coin at PCGS.
I have NEVER seen any article suggesting that NGC grades stricter than PCGS.
THIS is why when you have a PCGS Coin and an NGC coin of the same date and grade the PCGS coin will bring more money, often time 2 or 3 times the money of a NGC coin.
Take my FAVORITE coin of choice,,,,
The point is not who grades more coins, the point is who gives the better value for the money,,,, if you are rating a TPG service based on selling prices of their coins there can be only (1) choice,,, PCGS.
Sure there are people who play the game,,,, myself included. Can you send a coin to NGC and get a MS65 grade whereas the same coin at PCGS would only grade MS64? Often times the answer is yes. Will the NGC MS65 sell for more than the PCGS MS64? Often times the anser is yes.
That is not the point. If you want the VERY BEST coins possible in your personal set you stand the best chance of doing so by buying PCGS coin.
Put together a set of NGC MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Then put together a set of PCGS MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Which set has better eye appeal? Which set will sell for more money.
I will give you only (1) guess as to what my opinion is on this question
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity. >>
A totally meaningless sampling. Think about the manner, such as bulk w/minimum grades specified, in which coins can be submitter for grading.
<< <i>Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade? >>
If the public wouldn't buy NGC slabbed coins then dealers wouldn't submit to them. Also, they have fine customer service which is always a plus.
<< <i>Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS. >>
Grading is not a science and I've never seen anything to suggest that their grading not 'accurate and meaningful'.
Where would this thread be without him?
<< <i>If the public wouldn't buy NGC slabbed coins then dealers wouldn't submit to them >>
IMHO, new collectors, less informed and people looking for a "Bargain" buy other than PCGS graded coins.
I fail to see how any reasonable person can even attempt to claim NGC coins are on the same plateau as PCGS Coins.
It is like comparing hamburger at McDonalds (NGC) to a Sirloin Steak at Texas RoadHouse (PCGS)
McDonalds is OK when I am just hungry but when I want a GOOD MEAL with all the trimmings I go to Texas RoadHouse
JMHO, GrandAm
I wonder if this affects his opinion.
It does mine,,,, I have 100 items for sale. 99 PCGS & 1 ANACS
JMHO, GrandAm
<< <i>Quote from an article I recently read:
Sunday, April 29, 2007
PCGS vs NGC Grading: Apples and Oranges
NGC and PCGS grades are not the same. As shown in the graph below, for 1982 Pandas, PCGS clearly uses much tougher criteria than NGC. NGC graded 44% of 82 Pandas as MS69, but PCGS only allowed 16% to reach that level. In fact, you have to add PCGS MS67 (12%), MS68(16%) and MS69(16%) to equal NGC's MS69 rate. One could conclude from this that a PCGS MS67 coin could be equated with an NGC MS69 for rarity.
Dealers have noticed this too. They have sent 3 times as many coins through NGC. Could it be because they know NGC will give a higher grade?
Collectors beware. If you care about accurate and meaningful grading, stick with PCGS.
The above article sums up my point quite nicely. NGC may do more volume on some coins but that is due to the fact the grading standards are much lower than PCGS standards. Therefore NGC coins will grade higher than the same coin at PCGS.
I have NEVER seen any article suggesting that NGC grades stricter than PCGS.
THIS is why when you have a PCGS Coin and an NGC coin of the same date and grade the PCGS coin will bring more money, often time 2 or 3 times the money of a NGC coin.
Take my FAVORITE coin of choice,,,,
The point is not who grades more coins, the point is who gives the better value for the money,,,, if you are rating a TPG service based on selling prices of their coins there can be only (1) choice,,, PCGS.
Sure there are people who play the game,,,, myself included. Can you send a coin to NGC and get a MS65 grade whereas the same coin at PCGS would only grade MS64? Often times the answer is yes. Will the NGC MS65 sell for more than the PCGS MS64? Often times the anser is yes.
That is not the point. If you want the VERY BEST coins possible in your personal set you stand the best chance of doing so by buying PCGS coin.
Put together a set of NGC MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Then put together a set of PCGS MS65/MS66 Eisenhower Dollars. Which set has better eye appeal? Which set will sell for more money.
I will give you only (1) guess as to what my opinion is on this question
JMHO, GrandAm >>
according to your brilliant logic bentley is the dominant car maker over toyota, because a bentley sells for more.
pretty stupid, huh?
i'd guess toyota has more mkt share then bentley because they are a better co. (besides bentley is out of business i think)
i'd guess mcdonald's has more mkt share then white castle because they have better products & are the better co.
i'd guess microsoft sells more operating systems then sun because more people prefer microsoft & are the better co.
i'd guess intel sells more processors then motorola because they have better processors & are the better co.
i'd guess nike sells more shoes then converse because they are the better shoe co.
i'd guess best buy stayed in business over circuit city because the were the better co.
i'd guess wal-mart kicks saks fifth avenue's butt in sales because they are the better co.
i'd guess busch beer outsells mgd because busch beer tastes better & they are the better co.
is this really hard to understand???
make excuses all you want, but it still comes down to, the dominant co. getting more mkt. share, plain & simple.
no matter what you say about 'this coin in this pla$tic sold for more then that coin in that pla$tic', that is meaningless gibberish. the fact is still, more coins are in ngc holders. BY A LONG SHOT.
it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here.
K S
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here. >>
If you don't own a single slabbed coin how can you even begin to feel qualified to even be in this discussion?
I think you should go join the "RAW COIN" Forum hosted by Chattanooga Coin Company
Again, JMHO GrandAm
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. >>
BTW, I don't only buy slabs. I buy lots of raw coins and have submitted many thounsands of coins to PCGS for grading. Most of the coins I sell I have submitted myself.
I do OK.
<< <i>
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. because it really is simple concepts here. >>
If you don't own a single slabbed coin how can you even begin to feel qualified to even be in this discussion? >>
duh, ding dong, uh i've BOUGHT TONS of coins that used to be in $labs. DUUUuuuhhh. i am well into my SECOND 55 gallon drum of emptied $labs.
<< <i>
<< <i>it's awfully sad when someone who does'nt even own a single slabed coin understand this better then someone who only buys $labs. >>
BTW, I don't only buy slabs. I buy lots of raw coins and have submitted many thounsands of coins to PCGS for grading. Most of the coins I sell I have submitted myself. >>
oh yeah, becuase naturally someone who submits 1000s of coins to pcgs & none to ngc could'nt possibly be biased!
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
i would stake any bet any time that i have zero pla$tic bias, especially compared to you!!!
BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
K S
However it didn't take me long to figure out which coins were better overall.
I also "LOOK" at other TPG slabs when at shows and occasionally will buy one only to crack it out and have it regraded by the correct company.
GrandAm
I would say that NGC has the most slabs out there for the unwashed masses to chose from.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
looks like the PCGS luster in regards to MPL Lincolns on the open market is beginning to be rubbed off.
Stack's sale Matte Proof Lincoln cents sold recently (prices include 15% buyers fee)
1909 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3391 $4,600 Bid $850 541% of bid
1909 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3392 $1,150 Bid $675 170% of bid
1910 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3398 $1,840 Bid $475 387% of bid
1910 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3399 $1,093 Bid $655 167% of bid
1913 NGC MP-65 RB, Lot 3411 $3,738 Bid $805 464% of bid
1913 PCGS MP-64 RD, Lot 3412 $ 863 BId $910 95% of bid
1914 NGC MP-66 BN, Lot 3416 $2,760 Bid N/A N/A
1914 PCGS MP-65 RB, Lot 3417 $1,495 Bid $805 186% of bid
1915 NGC MP-65 BN, Lot 3416 $3,450 Bid $480 719% of bid
1915 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3417 $1,265 Bid $655 193% of bid
1916 PCGS MP-64 RB, Lot 3427 $1,610 Bid $700 230% of bid
1916 ANACS MP-64 BN, Lot 3428 $3,220 Bid $375 859% of bid
looks like buyers aren't too happy with how PCGS grades these, and the disparity of final sales price versus bid shows a huge advantage to NGC.
<< <i>
However it didn't take me long to figure out which coins were better overall.
>>
Oh come on...
You have to realize how silly this even sounds.
Can't you see that they might grade to a different standard? And value at a different standard?
To say anyones coins are better is jibberish. The label might be different, but the coins?????
<< <i>I prefer PCGS but I do have a few NGC in the stable. This one is on the way, TomB Pedigree:
Hey Lee,
I'd be darn proud of that one!