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A proposed new classification system for toned coins
Sunnywood
Posts: 2,683 ✭
In a recent thread, I talked about the origins of color on toned coins, and discussed the thin film interference phenomenon, which gives rise to an array of possible toning colors that follow a standard progression correlating to the thickness of the toning layer.
Link to thread about the thin film color progression.
What follows is a proposed new classification system that uses this color progression to describe the toning on our coins concisely.
I have listed and assigned classification codes to the colors typically found along the thin film progression. While in theory there are infinite gradations, and multiple possible color cycles, in practice the eye distinguishes certain colors, and after a few cycles the toning appears violet, then black. So I have tweaked the list to include the colors actually seen on heavily toned rainbow coins. Here then is a list of color classes:
0 - (untoned; letter O or numeral zero; may have a slight bluish cast)
A - Light Gold
B - Medium Gold
C - Amber
D - Russet
E - Burgundy
F - Cobalt Blue (technically begins 2nd cycle of colors)
G - Light Blue (Cyan)
H - Pale Mint Green
I - Lemon Yellow
J - Sunset Yellow
K - Orange
L - Red
M - Magenta
N - Magenta Blue
P - Blue (technically begins 3rd cycle of colors)
Q - Blue-Green
R - Emerald Green
S - Gold (often over green)
T - Magenta (often over gold-green)
U - Deep Blue (technically begins 4th cycle of colors)
V - Deep Green (Forest Green)
W - Deep Magenta
X - Deep Purple to Violet and beyond
Y - Glossy Black
Z - Dull Black
Notice that I have reserved the letter "O" (alternately the numeral zero) for untoned. Otherwise I have used the whole alphabet in order. (The zero can be used instead of letter O in databases where we want to order the coins by toning classification; with the zero, a simple alphbetic sort will keep the untoned coins at the beginning of the list.)
The toning classification for one side of a coin will be one, two or three letters. If the context requires distinguishing between obverse and reverse, we can use an optional period "." in front of the obverse classification, and an optional slash "/" in front of the reverse classification.
For an untoned obverse the code is .0; for the reverse, /0. For a monochromatically toned obverse, "." followed by the appropriate single letter; for the reverse, slash followed by the appropriate single letter, such as /A for a coin reverse toned light gold. The entire coin can then be described as obverse class -slash - reverse class. So a coin with a light gold obverse and untoned reverse would be A/0
This use of the slash is similar to the old style of assigning split grades to the two sides of a coin, such as 63/65.
If the obverse or reverse covers two or more color categories, use the lower toning limit, followed by the upper toning limit. For example, a coin whose obverse runs from untoned to cobalt blue would be 0F, light gold to cobalt blue would be AF, and light blue or cyan to emerald green would be GR. For the reverse, you can use the optional slash preceding the classification: /AE, and so on. For the entire coin, again the obverse, the slash, and then the reverse: 0C/AD, AG/BF, and so on.
Sometimes the toning makes a jump to one of the last three categories, typically after reaching at least emerald green (category R). In that case I would append the X, Y, or Z accordingly. So an obverse progressing all the way from light blue to glossy black, showing all the intermediate categories, would just be GY, but if it progresses from light blue to emerald green and then jumps to glossy black, it would be GRY. In this way, you could have classifications such as AC/BRX, or ERZ/AR, and so on.
For most toners, we talk about one side or the other, and most will fall into a two-letter classification, so we will talk about a coin that is AE, or 0R, or GR, etc. This has the consequence that some coins could receive toning classifications that look like other numismatic descriptors, such as AT, NT, PQ, AU, BU. That is why I'm suggesting using the dot or slash in front of the two-letter classification. Otherwise, you will have to make it clear in the context that "AT" means a coin toned from light gold to magenta, and not "artificially toned."
Here are some examples. I am using Morgan dollars here, but this system can apply equally to all toned silver coins. Thin film colors also appear on nickel and copper coins, and even gold occasionally. On copper, some of the colors are different because of the interaction with the reflected color of the copper itself.
The classification system is interesting and fun to apply. Here are a few examples of how this would work:
1892-CC PCGS MS66, obverse EH (burgundy in the recesses of the portrait through pale mint green), reverse FJ (cobalt blue through sunset yellow), whole coin is therefore EH/FJ. Some might argue the reverse goes to orange; that would be /FK. The toning classification can be somewhat subjective, just like grading.
1881-O PCGS MS65, the "Purple People Eater," obverse ranges from sunset yellow at 9 o'clock to deep blue, for example at BUS of PLURIBUS, classification JU.
1883-O obverse from light gold at 7:30 thru emerald green, gold, magenta, but then jumping to glossy black, classification AMY
1878 7/8 TF Strong, obverse ranges from medium gold around Miss Liberty's ear and hair, thru amber, russet, burgundy, cobalt blue to cyan, but progresses further at the top to pale mint green or lemon yellow. I would call this BI (med. gold to lemon yellow).
The colors can be a little subjective, and the gradations are infinite, so just as two people can disagree on whether a coin is 63 or 64, there might be disagreement whether to call a particular color medium gold or amber ... so what I classify as BI might conceivably be called CI by someone else. But even though nothing is absolute, the classification still tells you a lot about the coin.
Note that artifically toned coins can still obey the standard progression, and there are also some naturally toned coins that do not. This can happen if there are unusual contaminants present during storage, perhaps such as chlorine, or excess sulfur. Such coins may fit our generally accepted notions of natural toning, while still exhibiting some unusual colors. But the vast majority of toned silver coins will conform to the standard progression.
I am open to comments and suggestions.
Best,
Sunnywood
Link to thread about the thin film color progression.
What follows is a proposed new classification system that uses this color progression to describe the toning on our coins concisely.
I have listed and assigned classification codes to the colors typically found along the thin film progression. While in theory there are infinite gradations, and multiple possible color cycles, in practice the eye distinguishes certain colors, and after a few cycles the toning appears violet, then black. So I have tweaked the list to include the colors actually seen on heavily toned rainbow coins. Here then is a list of color classes:
0 - (untoned; letter O or numeral zero; may have a slight bluish cast)
A - Light Gold
B - Medium Gold
C - Amber
D - Russet
E - Burgundy
F - Cobalt Blue (technically begins 2nd cycle of colors)
G - Light Blue (Cyan)
H - Pale Mint Green
I - Lemon Yellow
J - Sunset Yellow
K - Orange
L - Red
M - Magenta
N - Magenta Blue
P - Blue (technically begins 3rd cycle of colors)
Q - Blue-Green
R - Emerald Green
S - Gold (often over green)
T - Magenta (often over gold-green)
U - Deep Blue (technically begins 4th cycle of colors)
V - Deep Green (Forest Green)
W - Deep Magenta
X - Deep Purple to Violet and beyond
Y - Glossy Black
Z - Dull Black
Notice that I have reserved the letter "O" (alternately the numeral zero) for untoned. Otherwise I have used the whole alphabet in order. (The zero can be used instead of letter O in databases where we want to order the coins by toning classification; with the zero, a simple alphbetic sort will keep the untoned coins at the beginning of the list.)
The toning classification for one side of a coin will be one, two or three letters. If the context requires distinguishing between obverse and reverse, we can use an optional period "." in front of the obverse classification, and an optional slash "/" in front of the reverse classification.
For an untoned obverse the code is .0; for the reverse, /0. For a monochromatically toned obverse, "." followed by the appropriate single letter; for the reverse, slash followed by the appropriate single letter, such as /A for a coin reverse toned light gold. The entire coin can then be described as obverse class -slash - reverse class. So a coin with a light gold obverse and untoned reverse would be A/0
This use of the slash is similar to the old style of assigning split grades to the two sides of a coin, such as 63/65.
If the obverse or reverse covers two or more color categories, use the lower toning limit, followed by the upper toning limit. For example, a coin whose obverse runs from untoned to cobalt blue would be 0F, light gold to cobalt blue would be AF, and light blue or cyan to emerald green would be GR. For the reverse, you can use the optional slash preceding the classification: /AE, and so on. For the entire coin, again the obverse, the slash, and then the reverse: 0C/AD, AG/BF, and so on.
Sometimes the toning makes a jump to one of the last three categories, typically after reaching at least emerald green (category R). In that case I would append the X, Y, or Z accordingly. So an obverse progressing all the way from light blue to glossy black, showing all the intermediate categories, would just be GY, but if it progresses from light blue to emerald green and then jumps to glossy black, it would be GRY. In this way, you could have classifications such as AC/BRX, or ERZ/AR, and so on.
For most toners, we talk about one side or the other, and most will fall into a two-letter classification, so we will talk about a coin that is AE, or 0R, or GR, etc. This has the consequence that some coins could receive toning classifications that look like other numismatic descriptors, such as AT, NT, PQ, AU, BU. That is why I'm suggesting using the dot or slash in front of the two-letter classification. Otherwise, you will have to make it clear in the context that "AT" means a coin toned from light gold to magenta, and not "artificially toned."
Here are some examples. I am using Morgan dollars here, but this system can apply equally to all toned silver coins. Thin film colors also appear on nickel and copper coins, and even gold occasionally. On copper, some of the colors are different because of the interaction with the reflected color of the copper itself.
The classification system is interesting and fun to apply. Here are a few examples of how this would work:
1892-CC PCGS MS66, obverse EH (burgundy in the recesses of the portrait through pale mint green), reverse FJ (cobalt blue through sunset yellow), whole coin is therefore EH/FJ. Some might argue the reverse goes to orange; that would be /FK. The toning classification can be somewhat subjective, just like grading.
1881-O PCGS MS65, the "Purple People Eater," obverse ranges from sunset yellow at 9 o'clock to deep blue, for example at BUS of PLURIBUS, classification JU.
1883-O obverse from light gold at 7:30 thru emerald green, gold, magenta, but then jumping to glossy black, classification AMY
1878 7/8 TF Strong, obverse ranges from medium gold around Miss Liberty's ear and hair, thru amber, russet, burgundy, cobalt blue to cyan, but progresses further at the top to pale mint green or lemon yellow. I would call this BI (med. gold to lemon yellow).
The colors can be a little subjective, and the gradations are infinite, so just as two people can disagree on whether a coin is 63 or 64, there might be disagreement whether to call a particular color medium gold or amber ... so what I classify as BI might conceivably be called CI by someone else. But even though nothing is absolute, the classification still tells you a lot about the coin.
Note that artifically toned coins can still obey the standard progression, and there are also some naturally toned coins that do not. This can happen if there are unusual contaminants present during storage, perhaps such as chlorine, or excess sulfur. Such coins may fit our generally accepted notions of natural toning, while still exhibiting some unusual colors. But the vast majority of toned silver coins will conform to the standard progression.
I am open to comments and suggestions.
Best,
Sunnywood
0
Comments
-Paul
Suggestion coinkid - post a toned coin and I will tell you the classification.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
am i to assume that since Black is the last progression in the toning cycle it is also the least seldom encountered?
www.brunkauctions.com
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
-Paul
Toning classification CG/CG (amber to cyan both sides; you can see the prgression amber-russet-burgundy-cobalt blue-cyan)
This one pushes past cyan at the rims, see how light it gets there, almost to lemon yellow. I would call the obverse BH (medium gold to pale mint green), but the reverse is more toned in the center, so perhaps DH there. Overall BH/DH.
This one ranges from light gold to cyan on the obverse, but the reverse doesn't quite get past cobalt blue at the rims. Cyan is the lighter paler blue at the obverse rim. So AG/AF for this one.
How about a TDN trade dollar? Here's a typical album toner with just a bit of cobalt blue on the obverse:
The classification would be AF/AD.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Too confusing IMO.
-Paul >>
yeah, almost as confusing as VAM's.
IGWT, for rainbow-toned Morgans in particular, I think this would prove quite useful over time to classify and summarize the degree of rainbow toning. I think it is also quite interesting to anyone assembling a toned set in any silver series. Granted, it will not be so useful in shield nickels, although I did have an almost complete set of rainbow-toned proof shield nickels back in the day.
For coins like this, it becomes interesting:
If you spend some time on Teletrade, where anything with a spot of color is called a "rainbow," then classification like this becomes useful. It's also of interest to those who specifically collect color. There are quite a few collectors who look for the wildest most colorful toning they can find, regardless of how many 1881-S Morgans they end up owning.
I also think that understanding toning, and analyzing more coins for toning classification, makes one more aware of natural toning, and more likely to spot an AT coin.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Please classify my seated quarter and Trade dollar:
<< <i>
<< <i>Too confusing IMO.
-Paul >>
yeah, almost as confusing as VAM's. >>
Got me there....
-Paul
(Many of today’s collectors have a lot of trouble with EF and AU – I suspect your suggestion would lead to cerebral hemorrhages.)
Much simpler than VAM's, especially if you care more about beautiful color than microscopic die aberrations !! Of course, the VAM guys will find just the opposite to be true. Just as I don't bother classifying my Morgans by VAM, many collectors won't bother classifying their colors. But this could be a useful tool for those who do care.
Of course, if it gets voted down by the majority as being too confusing or useless, then I will abandon the effort. That's why the thread title includes the word "proposed" !!
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I agree. Better just to look at the coin, or an image of the coin.
Then again, if the TPGs were to start using this classification system, and if certain TPG-assigned color designations come to be worth a premium in the marketplace, or gain extra points in Set Registries, my answer would change.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
gimme a break
Bob
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
awesome
and
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Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
edited to add a new pic.
Or in this case, a picture is worth a thousand toning classifications.
What problem is this solving again? Toned coins for the colorblind? Selling monster toners without pictures?
You will never replace the need for an image. How can your classification express the voids that can occur? The thumbprints? The gut reaction to the coin (pretty or vomity)?
I guess I don't get it.
However, I hear the majority, so I won't bother pushing this any further than using it for my own purposes: to better understand the several hundred beautifully toned coins of various types that I own.
I guess in the future I'll just stick to posting pretty pictures !!
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I often ask questions like "why are you doing this" just so that I can understand the roots of the problem. Or even if there is a problem.
It is an aspect of my day job. I often have to get to the roots of a problem, as I am often handed half-a$$ed solutions that do not address it.
And, by all means, bring on the images, please!
But don't leave out your commentary. It is worthwhile!
I love the concept but I can't see it catching on. Just too much data, too confusing. I have no more fingers for decoder rings. (If anything I would like to see common language prevail, instead of code. Like on genuine slabs...sorry to bring that up again!)
Imagine if different values were assigned to different color? Price lists would be unmanageable.
Lance.
<< <i>I'm surprised at how easily all of you are either confused, or disinterested in additional information about your coins. By these arguments, you don't need slabs, grades, variety attributions, or any other supplemental information; all you need is an image, or to look at the coin. This wasn't intended as something for TPG's to put on a slab, but rather to help understand the myriad color patterns that occur on toned coins.
However, I hear the majority, so I won't bother pushing this any further than using it for my own purposes: to better understand the several hundred beautifully toned coins of various types that I own.
I guess in the future I'll just stick to posting pretty pictures !!
Sunnywood >>
I just caught the thread..................don't give up the ship just yet
It is quite a bit of information to process and it takes time on such new idea's
Personally I find it a bit confusing, but I don't give up easily
Stefanie
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I let negative people "re-charge" me. It's why they're here. Accentuate the positive.
Most people don't even ask these questions, they just look at the coin and think, "it's pretty, I like it" or "not pretty enough, I don't like it." Well that's not enough for me. After studying hundreds of toned silver coins, the relatioship between the colors in the progression became clear, and it became easier to fit a random toned coin into that progression. One begins to understand why the 1892-CC dollar has the colors it does, and is completely different from a banded rainbow toner. To me this is interesting, just as in the past I found other things interesting, such as shield nickel die varieties; Cohen and Sheldon varieties on early coppers; die states and emission sequences; or discovering previously unknown hubs or die marriages.
If you look at the handful of Morgans I posted in this thread, each has radically different coloration. To me, finding the deeper scheme that connects them all is very interesting. But, to each his own !! If I am the only one who sees a value in categorizing the color schemes, then I shall be the only one who does it. I suggest though, that for those who do look at colorfully toned coins with appreciation, an understanding of the color progression becomes more and more relevant once you realize what it is you are looking at.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I also love extra info on my coins and do not shy away from it.
With that said I still believe that this classification is taking it a bit too deep.
Classifications should be short, sweet and to the point. Enough to grab the interest
of a layman to pull him in for further detail.
<< <i>Don't let the negative stop you , Sunnywood. I think your attempt at giving the scientific explanation of how and why this toning happens is important.
I let negative people "re-charge" me. It's why they're here. Accentuate the positive. >>
Joe
This is not the first time you have caused me to break out into song.....
Mike
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Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Respectfully,
Joe
P.S.
Thanks JRocco
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color"Central Valley" Roosevelts
Although I do not propose using my system for nickel, if I were to apply it here, your coin essentially ranges from medium gold to emerald green on both obverse and reverse, so BR/BR.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I'm surprised at how easily many of you are either confused, or disinterested in additional information about your coins. >>
I’m not confused, just extremely disinterested in this convoluted idea. I can hear it now…
“Does your coin have any colorful toning?”
“Yes, it’s DD with some JJ/BRD with a hint of GG and JT”
“Oh; blue-green, huh? Far out, man.”
JMO -Preussen
<< <i>Doug: I too applaud your efforts but find this system much too complex to be of practical use. As one who has had extensive experience in this particular area of numismatic endeavor, I believe that it is more effective to paint a word picture when attempting to describe a toned coin rather than assigning a combination of letters that would be much more confusing than a readily recognizable word or combination of words. Moreover there are many variations of the generic colors you listed that do not neatly fit into a particular category and would be more accurately portrayed by the judicious use of word pictures. JMHO
Mike >>
Got to go with Mikey on this one Doug. I teach my selespeople,first rule,KISS,Keep It Simple Stupid.Please read his coin descriptions,and those of Gary at Islandcoins.They come with great pictures and descriptions as well.Also the best selections of monster toned coins,especially Morgans.Albanese as well.JMHOLloyd
Patient : I have this mole or something, growing in my skin. I don't know what it is. It's a different color than my other moles
Nurse : Let me get the doctor
Doctor: So, whats the problem ?
Patient: It's just a mole doc.
Doctor: Yes, but we should do further study. It could be cancerous.
Patient : I don't need your opinion anyway. It doesn't matter what it is.
Doctor : Thank you, that will be all.
Patient: Boy, I'm glad my co-pay is only ten bucks. What a waste of insurance.
Off topic , I heard scientists found a single gene that prevents the re-growth of teeth. Imagine being able to grow new teeth.
Okay, back to coins, Sunnywood.
Thanks for your presentation. In my younger days I would have been able to better follow what you have designed for classifying toned silver coins. Younger eyes would also help. I appreciate your efforts to enlighten CU members.
Thanks Sunnywood
The biggest problem other than the relative complexity is that it really doesn't tell you how the coin really looks. The colors themselves are only half of the story.
If you get a purple between 1 and 2, the toning has been sped up and it may result in AT depending. . .
If the toning is caught between colors, like the 2001 Silver Eagle I am offering on the BST (see my sig line), I give it a decimel. This 2001 Silver Eagle is mainly a green-yellow on the obverse so I'd refer to it as a 3.5 with some tightly banded 4 through 7 rim toning from 10 to 4 o'clock.
I deal with toned coins for a living so this has become second nature to me. I can easily see how so many can think this to be an overly complicated system, mine or Sunnywood's.
The idea was to gain an understanding of the toning on coins. I was just trying to create a system to help people understand toning colors, so that they will better appreciate nature's magic on their attractively toned coins. Apparently, it was too complicated for people to like it, even though I think it is very simple !!
I like to study my coins, not just own them. I have enjoyed many classification systems, including Judd numbers, the Sheldon grading system, die marriage classifications (Sheldon, Overton, and many more), die state classifications (EDS, LDS, etc), die variety attributions (Cherrypicker, VAM, etc), die alignment classifications (e.g. on Gobrechts), error classifications, and on and on. Even the Redbook is a classification system, by denomination, design, date and mintmark. I don't reject them for complexity.
I will agree with mgoodm, and use this system for academic research. Yes, it only tells half the story - but it does tell that half well, and puts the colors in the proper natural context, based on science, not just subjective aesthetic descriptions.
OK, this is my last post on this subject !! But when I someday publish my collection in the form of a full-color plated coffee-table book, the classification system will be included nonetheless.
best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)