I read this over at the TCCS forums and thought it was an interesting concept scientifically and numismatically...
Sunnywood,
I was wondering if you were going to classify your "Somewhere over the rainbow" set registry in the "comments" section. I think you (and we) could learn something about color progression by looking at those examples when designated by your system. Thanks.
Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
<< <i>Again, the idea was not to replace images. It was also not meant for TPG's or slab inserts. The idea was also not intended for commerical use in selling coins. Dealers whose purpose is to describe coins for sale will certainly prefer verbal descriptions to technical classifications. (KISS or "Keep It Simple Stupid" might be great for salespeople, but not for science or academic research.)
The idea was to gain an understanding of the toning on coins. I was just trying to create a system to help people understand toning colors, so that they will better appreciate nature's magic on their attractively toned coins. Apparently, it was too complicated for people to like it, even though I think it is very simple !!
I like to study my coins, not just own them. I have enjoyed many classification systems, including Judd numbers, the Sheldon grading system, die marriage classifications (Sheldon, Overton, and many more), die state classifications (EDS, LDS, etc), die variety attributions (Cherrypicker, VAM, etc), die alignment classifications (e.g. on Gobrechts), error classifications, and on and on. Even the Redbook is a classification system, by denomination, design, date and mintmark. I don't reject them for complexity.
I will agree with mgoodm, and use this system for academic research. Yes, it only tells half the story - but it does tell that half well, and puts the colors in the proper natural context, based on science, not just subjective aesthetic descriptions.
OK, this is my last post on this subject !! But when I someday publish my collection in the form of a full-color plated coffee-table book, the classification system will be included nonetheless.
best, Sunnywood >>
Sunnywood,I agree totally that the concept of something that is easy for you may be much more difficult for others to understand.I am in no way a critic of the idea for science,but for collecting,for me,banded rainbow,monochromic,textile,endroller,and ,and,etc,will do just fine ,BUT i applaud your time,effort,energy,and passion,and will BUY that book when it comes out.Best,Lloyd
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
Aargh I said I wouldn't post again, but i can't resist, because i actually love this stuff ... OK, so why is the toning so interesting on that 1880-S PCGS MS68 above?
Well, the reverse shows a perfect vertical banded rainbow, presumably acquired in the original Mint bag. It ranges from medium gold on the left (9 o'clock), over to emerald green and just past into a bit of magenta (as usual with green and gold mixed in) on the right. So the reverse classification is BT (appropriate, as the reverse is indeed "beautifully toned").
The obverse is magnificently toned in a much narrower band of the color progression, ranging from sunset yellow in the recesses on the left side of the portrait, through orange, red, magenta, magenta blue to blue on the right side. Toning classification for the obverse is therefore JP. The large area of blue seen here (class P) is extremely rare. Normally it appears only as a very narrow band, barely visible between the magenta and the blue-green or emerald green that follow. You can see the corresponding colors on the reverse, between the right side of the right wing, running through the laurel leaves. The blue is (as usual) barely visible.
The toning on the obverse progresses from left to right, just as the reverse. Very often on toned coins, the "most toned" (thickest film) area along the perimeter on one side will correspond to the most toned point on the perimeter of the opposite side. This is what you would expect, and it implies that the obverse toning was not acquired separately or subsequently. But the toning on the obverse is more uniform in thickness than the reverse. One can only guess how the coin was positioned in the bag to acquire this particular two-sided toning. Classification: JP/BT.
Best, Sunnywood
Edited to add: I just realized the obverse classification JP makes this a "JP Morgan" !!!! I will call this coin JP Morgan from now on.
Aargh I said I wouldn't post again, but i can't resist, because i actually love this stuff ...
Sunnywood,
No reason to be discouraged by the lack of acceptance here. You could offer 100 forum members $100 in cash, and 75 would criticize your offer (the motive, the amount, the method of distribution, the number of $100 winners, the denominations used, etc.).
The important thing is that you are continuing to advance your understanding of toned coins (and are staying out of my collecting sandbox ). If the work is truly transforming, it will gain gradual acceptance. If you believe in it, keep pushing it. When someone posts a toner, offer your suggestion of the classification by the Sunnywood Scale™. Before long, we will all be using it (or speaking French, I am not sure which ).
Amen. My numbness certainly shouldn't dissuade you, and I've learned much from your recent two threads. And my bias is fairly well known: I don't think that TPGs should venture into attributes like die varieties or strike designations, much less color. My feelings on that topic doesn't mean that I don't appreciate your contribution . . . I certainly do.
IGWT, BECOKA, as noted above, this idea was NOT intended for TPG's !!! I want to encourage collectors to learn about toning on their own, and understand the colors they are seeing. We don't need it on the insert any more than we need things like a star designation or "FH" for full head (which in my view completely destroyed the SLQ series from a collecting standpoint by creating a crazy bifurcation in pricing).
We can debate all day about CAM, RB, RD, FBL, DMPL etc ... but my toning classification has nothing to do with TPG attribution, as I generally agree with you guys on that score.
<< <i>IGWT, BECOKA, as noted above, this idea was NOT intended for TPG's !!! I want to encourage collectors to learn about toning on their own, and understand the colors they are seeing. We don't need it on the insert any more than we need things like a star designation or "FH" for full head (which in my view completely destroyed the SLQ series from a collecting standpoint by creating a crazy bifurcation in pricing).
We can debate all day about CAM, RB, RD, FBL, DMPL etc ... but my toning classification has nothing to do with TPG attribution, as I generally agree with you guys on that score. >>
Fair enough. This was just so well thought out that it deserves some kind of recognition.
<< <i>Aargh I said I wouldn't post again, but i can't resist, because i actually love this stuff ... OK, so why is the toning so interesting on that 1880-S PCGS MS68 above?
Well, the reverse shows a perfect vertical banded rainbow, presumably acquired in the original Mint bag. It ranges from medium gold on the left (9 o'clock), over to emerald green and just past into a bit of magenta (as usual with green and gold mixed in) on the right. So the reverse classification is BT (appropriate, as the reverse is indeed "beautifully toned").
The obverse is magnificently toned in a much narrower band of the color progression, ranging from sunset yellow in the recesses on the left side of the portrait, through orange, red, magenta, magenta blue to blue on the right side. Toning classification for the obverse is therefore JP. The large area of blue seen here (class P) is extremely rare. Normally it appears only as a very narrow band, barely visible between the magenta and the blue-green or emerald green that follow. You can see the corresponding colors on the reverse, between the right side of the right wing, running through the laurel leaves. The blue is (as usual) barely visible.
The toning on the obverse progresses from left to right, just as the reverse. Very often on toned coins, the "most toned" (thickest film) area along the perimeter on one side will correspond to the most toned point on the perimeter of the opposite side. This is what you would expect, and it implies that the obverse toning was not acquired separately or subsequently. But the toning on the obverse is more uniform in thickness than the reverse. One can only guess how the coin was positioned in the bag to acquire this particular two-sided toning. Classification: JP/BT.
Best, Sunnywood
Edited to add: I just realized the obverse classification JP makes this a "JP Morgan" !!!! I will call this coin JP Morgan from now on. >>
Sunnywood,You cant help yourself nor could i,its called passion,and its great.BTW,Better to have a JP Morgan,than a BS,ML,or LB Morgan,or they would be gone.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
Comments
Sunnywood,
I was wondering if you were going to classify your "Somewhere over the rainbow" set registry in the "comments" section. I think you (and we) could learn something about color progression by looking at those examples when designated by your system.
Thanks.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Please inscribe
To:
Joe the Encourager,
I know you don't like toners, but ...
best to you anyway,
Sunnywood
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EOM
<< <i>Again, the idea was not to replace images. It was also not meant for TPG's or slab inserts. The idea was also not intended for commerical use in selling coins. Dealers whose purpose is to describe coins for sale will certainly prefer verbal descriptions to technical classifications. (KISS or "Keep It Simple Stupid" might be great for salespeople, but not for science or academic research.)
The idea was to gain an understanding of the toning on coins. I was just trying to create a system to help people understand toning colors, so that they will better appreciate nature's magic on their attractively toned coins. Apparently, it was too complicated for people to like it, even though I think it is very simple !!
I like to study my coins, not just own them. I have enjoyed many classification systems, including Judd numbers, the Sheldon grading system, die marriage classifications (Sheldon, Overton, and many more), die state classifications (EDS, LDS, etc), die variety attributions (Cherrypicker, VAM, etc), die alignment classifications (e.g. on Gobrechts), error classifications, and on and on. Even the Redbook is a classification system, by denomination, design, date and mintmark. I don't reject them for complexity.
I will agree with mgoodm, and use this system for academic research. Yes, it only tells half the story - but it does tell that half well, and puts the colors in the proper natural context, based on science, not just subjective aesthetic descriptions.
OK, this is my last post on this subject !! But when I someday publish my collection in the form of a full-color plated coffee-table book, the classification system will be included nonetheless.
best,
Sunnywood >>
Sunnywood,I agree totally that the concept of something that is easy for you may be much more difficult for others to understand.I am in no way a critic of the idea for science,but for collecting,for me,banded rainbow,monochromic,textile,endroller,and ,and,etc,will do just fine ,BUT i applaud your time,effort,energy,and passion,and will BUY that book when it comes out.Best,Lloyd
<< <i>
For coins like this, it becomes interesting:
>>
that coin i would call it alphabet soup
Well, the reverse shows a perfect vertical banded rainbow, presumably acquired in the original Mint bag. It ranges from medium gold on the left (9 o'clock), over to emerald green and just past into a bit of magenta (as usual with green and gold mixed in) on the right. So the reverse classification is BT (appropriate, as the reverse is indeed "beautifully toned").
The obverse is magnificently toned in a much narrower band of the color progression, ranging from sunset yellow in the recesses on the left side of the portrait, through orange, red, magenta, magenta blue to blue on the right side. Toning classification for the obverse is therefore JP. The large area of blue seen here (class P) is extremely rare. Normally it appears only as a very narrow band, barely visible between the magenta and the blue-green or emerald green that follow. You can see the corresponding colors on the reverse, between the right side of the right wing, running through the laurel leaves. The blue is (as usual) barely visible.
The toning on the obverse progresses from left to right, just as the reverse. Very often on toned coins, the "most toned" (thickest film) area along the perimeter on one side will correspond to the most toned point on the perimeter of the opposite side. This is what you would expect, and it implies that the obverse toning was not acquired separately or subsequently. But the toning on the obverse is more uniform in thickness than the reverse. One can only guess how the coin was positioned in the bag to acquire this particular two-sided toning. Classification: JP/BT.
Best,
Sunnywood
Edited to add: I just realized the obverse classification JP makes this a "JP Morgan" !!!! I will call this coin JP Morgan from now on.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Sunnywood,
No reason to be discouraged by the lack of acceptance here. You could offer 100 forum members $100 in cash, and 75 would criticize your offer (the motive, the amount, the method of distribution, the number of $100 winners, the denominations used, etc.).
The important thing is that you are continuing to advance your understanding of toned coins (and are staying out of my collecting sandbox
Best, RYK
You just did your part to save the economy and create jobs.
We can debate all day about CAM, RB, RD, FBL, DMPL etc ... but my toning classification has nothing to do with TPG attribution, as I generally agree with you guys on that score.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>IGWT, BECOKA, as noted above, this idea was NOT intended for TPG's !!! I want to encourage collectors to learn about toning on their own, and understand the colors they are seeing. We don't need it on the insert any more than we need things like a star designation or "FH" for full head (which in my view completely destroyed the SLQ series from a collecting standpoint by creating a crazy bifurcation in pricing).
We can debate all day about CAM, RB, RD, FBL, DMPL etc ... but my toning classification has nothing to do with TPG attribution, as I generally agree with you guys on that score. >>
Fair enough. This was just so well thought out that it deserves some kind of recognition.
<< <i>Here is what I have to say about it: Medium Gold, Lemon Yellow, Magenta (often over gold-green), Burgundy, Magenta, Burgundy
Cobalt Blue (begins 2nd cycle of colors), Deep Blue (begins 4th cycle of colors), Amber, Orange!
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>Aargh I said I wouldn't post again, but i can't resist, because i actually love this stuff ... OK, so why is the toning so interesting on that 1880-S PCGS MS68 above?
Well, the reverse shows a perfect vertical banded rainbow, presumably acquired in the original Mint bag. It ranges from medium gold on the left (9 o'clock), over to emerald green and just past into a bit of magenta (as usual with green and gold mixed in) on the right. So the reverse classification is BT (appropriate, as the reverse is indeed "beautifully toned").
The obverse is magnificently toned in a much narrower band of the color progression, ranging from sunset yellow in the recesses on the left side of the portrait, through orange, red, magenta, magenta blue to blue on the right side. Toning classification for the obverse is therefore JP. The large area of blue seen here (class P) is extremely rare. Normally it appears only as a very narrow band, barely visible between the magenta and the blue-green or emerald green that follow. You can see the corresponding colors on the reverse, between the right side of the right wing, running through the laurel leaves. The blue is (as usual) barely visible.
The toning on the obverse progresses from left to right, just as the reverse. Very often on toned coins, the "most toned" (thickest film) area along the perimeter on one side will correspond to the most toned point on the perimeter of the opposite side. This is what you would expect, and it implies that the obverse toning was not acquired separately or subsequently. But the toning on the obverse is more uniform in thickness than the reverse. One can only guess how the coin was positioned in the bag to acquire this particular two-sided toning. Classification: JP/BT.
Best,
Sunnywood
Edited to add: I just realized the obverse classification JP makes this a "JP Morgan" !!!! I will call this coin JP Morgan from now on. >>
Sunnywood,You cant help yourself nor could i,its called passion,and its great.BTW,Better to have a JP Morgan,than a BS,ML,or LB Morgan,or they would be gone.