Is there any progress to report on the research being done into what causes "milk spots"?
CoinHusker
Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭
I know a couple of years ago this was a topic of conversation on the boards with a rather large cash reward even being offered by PCGS. Lots of threads about it when you search. So, how goes the research and is the reward still out there? Or, has the problem, with Silver eagles particularly, been resolved?
Collecting coins, medals and currency featuring "The Sower"
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Comments
bob
<< <i>Why would PCGS offer a reward for that? >>
Because when a coin spots in a PCGS holder it costs them BIG BUCKS in their Buy-Back Guarantee.
GrandAm
<< <i>Why would PCGS offer a reward for that? >>
Cuz it costs them a CHITLOAD A MUNNY under their grade guarantee for a problem thats not of their doing.
<< <i>Why would PCGS offer a reward for that? >>
there is an article in the January 07, 2008 Coin World about how 'Milk Spots' on ASE's are plaguing grading services and that PCGS is offering a $50,000 reward for a safe solution to the problem.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why would PCGS offer a reward for that? >>
Cuz it costs them a CHITLOAD A MUNNY under their grade guarantee for a problem thats not of their doing. >>
I wish I had a chitload A Munny.
<< <i>Are they looking for a way to remove the spot, or what is the cause? >>
I believe it's what is the cause as milk spots on ASE's can't be removed. The spots are "in" the surface not "on" the surface. someone let me know if that's not accurate.
Plus, we all know there's no such thing as a perfect anything in this world, coins included.
Ryan
<< <i>
<< <i>Why would PCGS offer a reward for that? >>
there is an article in the January 07, 2008 Coin World about how 'Milk Spots' on ASE's are plaguing grading services and that PCGS is offering a $50,000 reward for a safe solution to the problem. >>
The milk spots are also a PITA for collectors too.
<< <i>The milk spots are also a PITA for collectors too. >>
<< <i>Are they looking for a way to remove the spot, or what is the cause? >>
Both from what I understand. If you dip them in EZest before the spots appear, the causative agent can be removed from what I hear. After the spots appear it is difficult to remove them fron the bullion version, but I think easier to remove from proof coins. From what I know it does not seem to be a problem with commems like the Buffalo Dollars or the SF Old Mint coins.
It would be helpful if there was someone in the West Point, NY area who could provide a phone directory for the U.S. Mint facility there. I think these were also struck at the Philly facility too.
In my opinion the cause of the milk spots has to be coming from cleaning agents the mint uses on the planchets, or some chemical agent that is used routinely in their operations that comes in contact with the planchets, or the planchet strip while it is being rolled.
Some products contain chemicals that will tarnish, or otherwise affect certain metals, but not others.
In my business I machine a lot of aluminum extrusions.
If certain chemical agents get on the aluminum, there is spotting and the aluminum can't be anodized.
I've found that Windex™ will tarnish aluminum, and cause spotting when anodized. I believe the chemical agent in Windex™ that causes it, is hexyloxy, but I don't know for sure.
Another problem product is WD40™. I don't know the chemical composition as this is a trade secret, but if aluminum is exposed to WD40™, it cannot be anodized due to spotting.
Ray
<< <i> From what I know it does not seem to be a problem with commems like the Buffalo Dollars or the SF Old Mint coins. >>
It's not as big of a problem on world bullion either.
<< <i> The only way one is going to get an answer is from the mint itself. >>
Good luck with that...
<< <i>So, would PCGS consider milkspots to be "Environmental Damage" or "Toning". I guess its toning if its already in the PCGS slab. >>
Spots are not market acceptable and will prevent encapsulation. Coins that develop spots after encapsulation can be sent back under the grade guarantee.
If they don't happen in mint packaging, then is it because the graders hold the coin with their hand ? is a minute amount of moisture from the air and their fingers hanging around on the coin, and then reacting in the slab ?
<< <i>So, would PCGS consider milkspots to be "Environmental Damage" or "Toning". I guess its toning if its already in the PCGS slab. >>
Its likely a manufacturing defect/artifact like roller marks, die chips and die cracks. Its not something thats added after the coin leaves the mint. I suspect that it needs environmental exposure in order to manifest its presence.
<< <i>From the Mint's perspective, this may not be a big issue. There are few reports of milkspotting in OGP, which is what they sell. Most reports seem to involve coins that have been removed from OGP and placed in third-party holders the Mint doesn't control. Additionally, it may not be materially impacting sales. >>
Thats not true since spotted coins have been found in supposedly unopened mint tubes. Of course it doesn't impact the mint's sales because you can't return them directly to the mint like you can other products that you purchase there. Its pretty much a one way street for them.
<< <i>
<< <i>From the Mint's perspective, this may not be a big issue. There are few reports of milkspotting in OGP, which is what they sell. Most reports seem to involve coins that have been removed from OGP and placed in third-party holders the Mint doesn't control. Additionally, it may not be materially impacting sales. >>
Thats not true since spotted coins have been found in supposedly unopened mint tubes. >>
What's not true? That there are a few reports of milkspotting in OGP? Or that there seem to be many more reports of spotting in third-party holders? Reports of spotting in third-party holders seem much greater than OGP, by an order of magnitude or more. If the spotting reports are small enough, the issue may be low priority for the Mint.
<< <i>Of course it doesn't impact the mint's sales because you can't return them directly to the mint like you can other products that you purchase there. Its pretty much a one way street for them. >>
Regarding sales impact, if people were very concerned, they would curb purchases of future issues which isn't affected by the return policy. However, this does not appear to be happening. If sales of future issues fell because of spotting of past issues, the Mint would likely place a higher priority of working on this issue.
Here is a SEM scanning electron micrograph of a coin with spots.
Here is the coin used in the tests. Its a 1994 and was taken from an NGC holder.
<< <i>Udderly impossible to figure out.
bob
................
Mint-packaged piece not affected because production/packaging does not have excess NaCl in atmosphere.
Grading service solution. Deionize atmosphere in facilities to remove ions.
PCGS – Please send your check. Thanks!
<< <i>If the MS70/PF70 grade was done away with and they were all limited to the MS69/PF69 level, PCGS would be in a lot better shape.
Plus, we all know there's no such thing as a perfect anything in this world, coins included.
Ryan >>
............isn't "perfect" subjective?
<< <i>Hmmm...NGC and PCGS are both located near the coast --- air laden with salt - NaCl. Sunlight/UV disassociating NaCl into Na+ Cl- and airborne Cl- reacting with exposed silver.
Mint-packaged piece not affected because production/packaging does not have excess NaCl in atmosphere.
Grading service solution. Deionize atmosphere in facilities to remove ions.
PCGS – Please send your check. Thanks! >>
Not a chance in the world of this being right. It assumes that chlorine can tell the difference between an ASE and a commem. FWIW in order to claim the reward you have to be able to remove the spots with no evidence that they were ever there.
<< <i>very interesting, thanks for posting that. >>
Actually I have posted that more than once before.
<< <i>The most obvious answer would be the water at the mint. It would be interesting to see a test done on that. This assuming of course they use their water in the mix of whatever they wash the planchets with. >>
They probably get distilled/deionized water in bulk from tap water by large scale reverse osmosis. We generate it by the 10s of thousands of gallons every day where I work. The problem is likely that two planchets that are stuck together are going to each have a side that isn't rinsed properly; kinda like 2 dirty plates stuck together in a dishwasher. I'd bet its kinda hard to thoroughly wash 10,000 planchets in a pile.
So far I haven't heard of any spots forming on ASEs stored in vacuum sealed OGP but that may be a coincidence with other environmental factors. Based on reports, it seems there may be a correlation with certain environmental factors based on coin storage location and/or holder. Perhaps certain environments based on holder and location are more prone to spotting than others. It would be interesting to see a list of reported storage conditions and locations for spotting.
<< <i>
<< <i> The only way one is going to get an answer is from the mint itself. >>
Good luck with that...
We can sit here and speculate all we want to [and it would appear that some are better at it than are others] but until we get some info on what actually happens then its tough to say whats really goin on.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> The only way one is going to get an answer is from the mint itself. >>
Good luck with that...
We can sit here and speculate all we want to [and it would appear that some are better at it than are others] but until we get some info on what actually happens then its tough to say whats really goin on. >>
I agree with you 100% but when one part of the equation isn't either ready, willing or able you've got one long row to hoe to find what you're looking for.
Not that I have heard of
identify the sources.
1. Can they be prevented?
2. Can they be reversed?
3. What causes them to begin with?
4. What's the status of the $50K reward?
<< <i>What's the latest on the milk spot situation, in which there seem to be several open questions:
1. Can they be prevented?
2. Can they be reversed?
3. What causes them to begin with?
4. What's the status of the $50K reward? >>
1. Pre-mint or post-mint? Pre-mint depends upon the will of the mint to fix it which is apparently not gonna happen. It has been said that they can be prevented by dipping the coin in E Zest if the spots aren't yet visible.
2. Probably sometimes, but more often than not they can't be. It has also been said that they can be seen by using a halogen flashlight before being visble to the eye. Acetone washing will neither remove them nor prevent them.
3. The white ones are silver chloride possibly from the use of bleach in the planchet making process. I have also seen some yellowish green/tannish ones that might be due to the use of a rinsing aid [butyl cellosolve] post planchet stage.
4. Still available to be claimed AFAIK.
<< <i>
<< <i>What's the latest on the milk spot situation, in which there seem to be several open questions:
1. Can they be prevented?
2. Can they be reversed?
3. What causes them to begin with?
4. What's the status of the $50K reward? >>
1. Pre-mint or post-mint? Pre-mint depends upon the will of the mint to fix it which is apparently not gonna happen. It has been said that they can be prevented by dipping the coin in E Zest if the spots aren't yet visible.
2. Probably sometimes, but more often than not they can't be. It has also been said that they can be seen by using a halogen flashlight before being visble to the eye. Acetone washing will neither remove them nor prevent them.
3. The white ones are silver chloride possibly from the use of bleach in the planchet making process. I have also seen some yellowish green/tannish ones that might be due to the use of a rinsing aid [butyl cellosolve] post planchet stage.
4. Still available to be claimed AFAIK. >>
Whats AFAIK?
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As far as I know it means there's a reward if anyone can fix this problem.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>AFAIK As far as I know it means there's a reward if anyone can fix this problem. >>
What are the exact details of the reward? Will it be awarded to the first person who correctly explains the cause? Or to who suggests an effective prevention? If so, and if Ezest will really prevent the milk spots, who first discovered that, and did they, or will they collect? Or is the reward supposed to go to someone who can show how to get rid of the milk spots after they've formed? And what if the correct explanation or remedy has already been proposed, and is on record, but is only confirmed in future years, will the reward still be paid? After all, there have already been bunches of threads on these boards with many suggestions and proposals, some undoubtedly purely speculative, some based on expert numismatic insight, and some based on genuine scientific study. What if the answer is out there but has not yet been recognized? And what's the latest thinking on the subject? Is it still officially a mystery?