Oh fraudbay... how I love thee...

coinnuttius · February 16, 2009 2:20PM

Fake o rama... here. The Austrian silver thaler is becoming very popular as a chinese fake: 5 and counting so far. Weee!! So, what's a nice safe hobby to pick up instead of coin collecting?

ASUtodd · February 16, 2009 10:27PM

Looks like the auction was taken down. Kudos if you turned it in and got it shutdown. I would love to see those that find these auctions point out how they know it is a fake so that the rest of us can take notes and learn. There are folks on these forums that can spot a fake a mile away and I wouldn't know it if I held it!

coinnuttius · February 16, 2009 10:56PM

I reported all 5. Problem is there is 1 of me and 1000s of them. Ebay being too cheap (actually: not willing to cut into their own profit) to pay for professional evaluators instead relying on "community policing". What a crock. People who cannot hide behind corporate lawyers, lobbyists and server racks would go to jail for complicity in defrauding people.
In my last "report" I asked for a "Fake Coin" button on chinese auctions, since it's way to much clicking around to report this sorta stuff. Now, there is a "SafeHarbor" idea, no? Not gonna happen

coinpictures · February 17, 2009 12:11AM

I see... so eBay is supposed to hire full-time experts for every single collectible category or subcategory on the site, to pass judgment based on crappy auction pictures...

Well at least it's reasonable.

ASUtodd · February 17, 2009 2:23AM

I'll say it again, be part of the solution, not the problem...

coinpictures · February 17, 2009 3:19AM

Oh please. Don't wrench your arm out of its socket patting yourself on the back. If you enjoy being the eBay Gestapo, then knock yourself out, but stop insisting that those who aren't so inclined are somehow lower than you. It's arrogant and annoying.

laurentyvan · February 17, 2009 3:37AM

Now now, CP, Coinnuttius is doing good work.

I wouldn't mind reporting fraud either, I just am not good enough to do so reliably.

I've often wondered why eBay is not more pro-active in dealing with fraud but these people have millions
of auctions to deal with. Logistically, it's probably impossible.

coinnuttius · February 17, 2009 4:15AM

<< I see... so eBay is supposed to hire full-time experts for every single collectible category or subcategory on the site, to pass judgment based on crappy auction pictures...

Well at least it's reasonable.

>>

You sell on ebay. But unlike even the dullest drug dealer who realizes that the guy selling crappier (but cheaper) dope in his hood is ruining his business you have not quite gotten there. No? And quit playing the Nazi card, that sort of stuff doesn't fly with educated people.

coinpictures · February 17, 2009 5:58AM

Oh, Jesus Christ on a crutch. Stop playing the drama queen. You make a ridiculous claim that eBay should be hiring professional evaluators for all of the collectibles categories (not only is not feasible given the number of collectible categories and the depth of knowledge required, but it would set dangerous precedent and a slippery slope as well as opening up a huge legal liability for eBay, which is fodder for another discussion) and then wonder when someone calls you on it? Please.

ASUtodd · February 17, 2009 8:31AM

Coinnuttius, I applaud your efforts and thank you for doing what is right. If no one else appreciates it, I do. Thank you!
Todd

coinnuttius · February 17, 2009 8:57AM

<< Oh, Jesus Christ on a crutch. Stop playing the drama queen. You make a ridiculous claim that eBay should be hiring professional evaluators for all of the collectibles categories (not only is not feasible given the number of collectible categories and the depth of knowledge required, but it would set dangerous precedent and a slippery slope as well as opening up a huge legal liability for eBay, which is fodder for another discussion) and then wonder when someone calls you on it? Please. >>

Nowhere does it say that they should hire them for all categories. It's entirely feasible to do it, they're already sitting on the data necessary. The legal issues are another matter; they can go and lobby for that... they do it all the time to cover their ass. Just throwing your hands up and saying "it can't be done", well, how exactly did fraudbay come about?

The pathological nature of your position is evident in statements such as " ... to pass judgment based on crappy auction pictures... " Why are those allowed in the first place? Would you allow a B&M dealer to put his/her coins in opaque plastic holder and then tell you "see for yourself, you be the judge" ? Why are you arguing that they control the marketplace but should not enforce fairness in it? Again, people who at least bother enough so that people do not get ripped off you call the Gestapo. Do you stand idly by when someone gets raped because it's "not your problem"? Are you out of your mind or just trolling?

coinpictures · February 17, 2009 9:05AM

BWAHAHAHAH! Not wanting to spend the time futilely reporting questionable eBay listings is the same as standing around watching someone get raped?

You are officially an effing idiot.

ASUtodd · February 17, 2009 9:13AM

I don't think he is an "effing" idiot... There is an old saying, "It is better to keep silent and let others think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".... I no longer doubt you .....

coinpictures · February 17, 2009 9:16AM

For making that analogy, he certainly is. Forasmuch as he castigated me for the "Gestapo" reference, is he not going to an even more ridiculous extreme?

*shrug*

Have fun policing eBay...

coinnuttius · February 17, 2009 11:10AM

<< For making that analogy, he certainly is. Forasmuch as he castigated me for the "Gestapo" reference, is he not going to an even more ridiculous extreme?

*shrug*

Have fun policing eBay... >>

So you do recognize reduction ad absurdum when others use it; just not when you do. Hmm, and that makes you what according to yourself?

Some people see it coming, others simply do not. And kudos for using profanity. In retrospect I guess a witty retort out of you would have surprised me somewhat.

ormandh · February 17, 2009 12:04PM

Guys, do we really need to keep rehashing this argument. If you lack the experience to do do your research on any particular coin, then maybe you do need to find a safer hobby, coinnew tothis. I personally have bought many fakes(yes I am embarrassed to admit), but I can really only blame myself. Had I done my research before buying, this would not have happened. Learn the series before you purchase a coin!! I will say that I have paid closer attention to what I am buying and put a little more work into research and by using a little common sense to not make these same mistakes. All of the counterfeit coins I bought were from dealers that are very well established and probably some that forum members here have purchased from before. Most of the dealers I have purchased coins from in the past usually only deal with US inventory, and in most cases do not have a whole lot of knowledge in foreign coinage. In some cases they bought them back apologetically, in some cases it were not until I tried to sell the coin that I realized that it were counterfeit way past the return factor.

Maybe you people that are watchdogs should find a solution to this problem of counterfeiting instead of placing the blame on an institution that has no way of controlling the problem. We all know where the problem begins, but I have not seen the blame really placed on the source of the problem, China. Maybe you should first start by educating collectors to not buy from China. Secondly, maybe there should be a degree in buying and investing money in coins. The old adage "a fool and his money are soon parted" comes to mind.

coinnuttius · February 17, 2009 12:32PM

<< Now now, CP, Coinnuttius is doing good work.

I wouldn't mind reporting fraud either, I just am not good enough to do so reliably.

I've often wondered why eBay is not more pro-active in dealing with fraud but these people have millions
of auctions to deal with. Logistically, it's probably impossible. >>

Not really. You can do filtering, risk-ranking and follow up with statistical tools to bring it down to manageable size for the existing auctions. There are amazing methods to transform n-dimensional data into more manageable chunks (PCA etc). Would you believe me that they actually have all the basic data to find all but the most sophisticated shill bidding schemes? I would wager they run those or similar analyses all the time for business intelligence purposes anyways. They likely know what the sustainable rate of cancellations has to be in order not to lose buyers on the other end. Wouldn't you want to know what the "delete" button does to your bottom line if was your business? You better believe they do.

ormandh · February 17, 2009 12:58PM

<< 

<< Now now, CP, Coinnuttius is doing good work.

I wouldn't mind reporting fraud either, I just am not good enough to do so reliably.

I've often wondered why eBay is not more pro-active in dealing with fraud but these people have millions
of auctions to deal with. Logistically, it's probably impossible. >>

Not really. You can do filtering, risk-ranking and follow up with statistical tools to bring it down to manageable size for the existing auctions. There are amazing methods to transform n-dimensional data into more manageable chunks (PCA etc). Would you believe me that they actually have all the basic data to find all but the most sophisticated shill bidding schemes? I would wager they run those or similar analyses all the time for business intelligence purposes anyways. They likely know what the sustainable rate of cancellations has to be in order not to lose buyers on the other end. Wouldn't you want to know what the "delete" button does to your bottom line if was your business? You better believe they do. >>

Do you have any idea of what the counterfeits/genuine coins ratio is? I would say that is very tiny. Basically, not worth the time or effort. So what, you found five auctions out of the 10's of 1000's of auctions. It is, unfortunately, the way things are. I would bet that the ratios are not large enough to worry about. With Ebay's shrinking business, I am sure that this is not their first priority. That is, of course, taking into account the other categories they also deal with. Don't forget that coins are a very small sector of this auction site. I, personally think that you busybodies forget this fact.

ColinCMR · February 17, 2009 1:00PM

i love PCAs!

BCNumismatics · February 17, 2009 3:59PM

It's not only the fraudsters & scammers who need to be taken down,but the pieces of crap that are FleaBay & PayPal also need to be taken down as well.

Has anyone thought about hacking into FleaBay's & PayPal's servers,& knocking them offline permanently?

Aidan.

element159 · February 17, 2009 4:46PM

I think it would be in eBay's *financial* interest to improve their expertise in evaluating frauds. Some are obviously easy to identify. But they are too cheap.

coinnuttius · February 17, 2009 9:26PM

<< 

Do you have any idea of what the counterfeits/genuine coins ratio is? I would say that is very tiny. Basically, not worth the time or effort. >>

Perhaps, but the ratio is not the important measure, it's the value per item and sales-rate that are important.

What is the ratio of legit to fake raw trade dollars on ebay? Does it matter to me? I wouldn't buy a raw trade dollar off ebay, period.

laurentyvan · February 18, 2009 1:11AM

Has anyone thought about hacking into FleaBay's & PayPal's servers,& knocking them offline permanently?

This does nothing to fix the problem and is a dangerous recommendation.

I really wish you hadn't posted this poison on this particular forum; please go away...

Garneteye · February 18, 2009 7:31AM

<< This does nothing to fix the problem and is a dangerous recommendation. I really wish you hadn't posted this poison on this particular forum; please go away... >>

Hear, Hear!

olmanjon · February 18, 2009 12:15PM

Well guys I have really loved this forum since I joined. I have traveled to the U.S forumn and the above is what you hear over there as a matter of course. This forum up until now has been pretty clean. Everyone has there opinions. Right or wrong it is theres. I wouldn't know a fake coin if it bit me in the face. Now would be a good time for those of you with the expertise to teach the rest of us how to spot them. I for one would love to learn. Enough of this bickering. Lets get back to the hobby that we all love. Teach me. Don't belittle me. Thanks for letting me vent.
Olmanjon

BCNumismatics · February 18, 2009 12:36PM

<< Well guys I have really loved this forum since I joined. I have traveled to the U.S forumn and the above is what you hear over there as a matter of course. This forum up until now has been pretty clean. Everyone has there opinions. Right or wrong it is theres. I wouldn't know a fake coin if it bit me in the face. Now would be a good time for those of you with the expertise to teach the rest of us how to spot them. I for one would love to learn. Enough of this bickering. Lets get back to the hobby that we all love. Teach me. Don't belittle me. Thanks for letting me vent.
Olmanjon >>

Too right,John! Both FleaBay & PayPal have done a lot of damage in our hobby,especially in the area of rare coins.

There used to be an organisation called Coalition of Internet Numismatists Against Fraud that was active in late 2005 & early 2006.They had a website at www.coinaf.org.I don't know what became of this organisation in the end.

Aidan.

mrpotatoheadd · February 18, 2009 12:42PM

Does anybody think calling eBay "Fleabay" or "Fraudbay" (or whatever the cutesy derogative name-of-the-day is today) is a good way to attract more reputable sellers and responsible buyers to the site? Or is it more of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Just wondering...

coinpictures · February 18, 2009 1:07PM

Naw, it's just juvenile petulance in action...

gecko109 · February 18, 2009 1:51PM

The bottom line is caveat emptor...buyer beware!!! Ebay's role was and is to allow people from all over the world to sell what they want (kidneys and children aside). Its basically a flea market online, and has been viewed as such for a very long time. Any fleamarket in this country has its fair share of knockoff brands....fake Coach bags and yes, even fake coins. You, me, Ebay cannot stop this practice. If you want a legit high dollar coin, and are worried about fakes, then dont expect to get one off the bay for $17.32!!! Go to a legit dealer's website, or a large coin show and buy the real deal. I would wager that 99% of all the fake coins that ARE sold on ebay were bought for perhaps less than 10% of what a true market value would have been on the genuine counterpart. The problem isnt fake coin sellers, but rather STUPID, DESPERATE, GREEDY BUYERS!

ASUtodd · February 18, 2009 10:23PM

Any admin around to remove this topic? It's played out now....

Oh fraudbay... how I love thee...

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