Did "HL" strike again on this 1796 50¢ PCGS problem-free F15? (warning, big pic)
pcgs69
Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭✭
(thread title edited to remove the possibility of the dealer's name associated with the ongoing joke to be taken seriously by others not familiar with the original thread.)
If you recall Ryk's thread here it was determined that the coin in the problem free PCGS holder was tooled/manipulated in some way, especially the stars. As a result of the thread, Don Willis made sure the coin was placed into a Genuine holder.
This 1796 half, currently for sale at Heritage here looks to also have the stars tooled. But this one is without the "HL" initials.
Mr. Willis, is this a candidate for the PCGS buyback?
Image modified to be less massive.
If you recall Ryk's thread here it was determined that the coin in the problem free PCGS holder was tooled/manipulated in some way, especially the stars. As a result of the thread, Don Willis made sure the coin was placed into a Genuine holder.
This 1796 half, currently for sale at Heritage here looks to also have the stars tooled. But this one is without the "HL" initials.
Mr. Willis, is this a candidate for the PCGS buyback?
Image modified to be less massive. 0
Comments
great detective work.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
"Missed it by that much"
<< <i>Is it the dark toning that indicates tooling? I don't see whiz marks. What makes the stars look tooled? Can someone post an example that isn't tooled for comparison? I would like to learn from this thread. >>
Look how the black lines of the stars are so strong as if someone took a blade to make the details stronger.
<< <i>Is it the dark toning that indicates tooling? I don't see whiz marks. What makes the stars look tooled? Can someone post an example that isn't tooled for comparison? I would like to learn from this thread. >>
The detail on these stars was worn off long ago. they should be flat. An overzealous jeweler courageously added lines to make the coin look nicer. --Jerry
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>That would be sooooo easy to miss! >>
Given the value of this coin, I'm guessing they won't miss it again.
<< <i>Is this an older slab? Reason I ask is that, if memory serves, there were a lot of old posts (on another site) where Laura was talking about PCGS putting a lot of altered, doctored, AT'd, ect. coins in slabs. This was, as I remember, the main reason for CAC starting up. I think this may be one of those "older" slabs. With the super tight grading these days, stuff like this would not get slabbed at either of the big two. >>
I believe this would be called net grading without stating the problem. It seems for high value coins PCGS would let a lot slide to get them into their holders.
Now that the genuine service has started up there will be no more confusion. It will just take time and money to clean up their old mess.
<< <i>
<< <i>Is this an older slab? Reason I ask is that, if memory serves, there were a lot of old posts (on another site) where Laura was talking about PCGS putting a lot of altered, doctored, AT'd, ect. coins in slabs. This was, as I remember, the main reason for CAC starting up. I think this may be one of those "older" slabs. With the super tight grading these days, stuff like this would not get slabbed at either of the big two. >>
I believe this would be called net grading without stating the problem. It seems for high value coins PCGS would let a lot slide to get them into their holders.
Now that the genuine service has started up there will be no more confusion. It will just take time and money to clean up their old mess. >>
I hear what you are saying, but a tooled coin should never be net graded. It has been permanently altered/damaged.
1796 50C
PCGS F15
16 Tooled Stars
6058.15/06872907
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
despite the damage was tempted to sell a significant part of my collection to try and buy it.
I can't imagine there are two of these in the same grade and with similar skins floating around
1796 in NCS holder
<< <i>I believe that is a new slab, because I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year. Actually I looked at that coin several times and
despite the damage was tempted to sell a significant part of my collection to try and buy it.
I can't imagine there are two of these in the same grade and with similar skins floating around >>
Does this mean that NGC caught it and PCGS missed it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe that is a new slab, because I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year. Actually I looked at that coin several times and
despite the damage was tempted to sell a significant part of my collection to try and buy it.
I can't imagine there are two of these in the same grade and with similar skins floating around >>
Does this mean that NGC caught it and PCGS missed it?
POOF!!!
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
That's going to make this a very interesting "case". PCGS should have no problem tracking the ownership of the coin for the past year. If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Great work remembering and finding the coin.
I guess PCGS will have to take a look at this one.
If it slipped through, bad on them...
If it was overlooked, even worse.
<< <i>I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year
That's going to make this a very interesting "case". PCGS should have no problem tracking the ownership of the coin for the past year. If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
What if they disagreed with NCS's assessment of the coin and decided to get the expert opinion of PCGS's expert graders?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I believe that is a new slab, because I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year. Actually I looked at that coin several times and
despite the damage was tempted to sell a significant part of my collection to try and buy it.
I can't imagine there are two of these in the same grade and with similar skins floating around
1796 in NCS holder >>
I knew i recognized the coin, couldn't figure out where from though! Good work!
Think about it. You have a problem coin in an ugly NCS holder and want it in a PCGS holder.
Why not crack it out, send it in and hope that by some miracle they are so smitten by the coin that they overlook the
tooling and now put it in a problem free holder by mistake. Even if they catch the damage the coin will still come back
in a PCGS Genuine holder.
<< <i>That is going to be a very expensive buy back for PCGS >>
I hope the grading fees don't increase because of this
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
That's what happened on the 1805/4 with 'HL' cut into it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
professional grading.
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe that is a new slab, because I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year. Actually I looked at that coin several times and
despite the damage was tempted to sell a significant part of my collection to try and buy it.
I can't imagine there are two of these in the same grade and with similar skins floating around >>
Does this mean that NGC caught it and PCGS missed it?
This can't possibly be true, everyone here says that PCGS is wayyyyyy better than NGC.
<< <i>
<< <i>If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
That's what happened on the 1805/4 with 'HL' cut into it. >>
Really?
one must drive a metal spike thru it.
Camelot
<< <i>I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year
That's going to make this a very interesting "case". PCGS should have no problem tracking the ownership of the coin for the past year. If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
That makes absolutely no sense to me.
<< <i>Really? >>
Yes.
<< <i>Reminds me of that famous phrase from Get Smart:
"Missed it by that much"
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
We could call it the Numismatic Assurance Department. A catchy acronym is important.
But, how would you tell that a slabbed coin was approved by the NAD?
There would have to be some sort of mark. Or note. Or indication. Or something.
All kidding aside...it's sick what has been done to these coins.
Was there ever a time this sort of chisel based enhancement was considered "acceptible" or was the person doing it just evil.
<< <i>I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year
That's going to make this a very interesting "case". PCGS should have no problem tracking the ownership of the coin for the past year. If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
Also, if Heritage determines that the buyer of the NCS coin is selling the PCGS coin through them, they may also rain unpleasantries unto the consignor.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>I saw that coin in an NCS holder last year
That's going to make this a very interesting "case". PCGS should have no problem tracking the ownership of the coin for the past year. If they can prove that the person submitting the coin to PCGS knew about the problem, they may have recourse against that person. >>
Also, if Heritage determines that the buyer of the NCS coin is selling the PCGS coin through them, they may also rain unpleasantries unto the consignor. >>
What if an agent of Heritage bought the coin and is selling it through Heritage?
NGC knew it was tooled,
PCGS didn't notice it,
PCGS is still better,
and the fault lies with the submitter and Heritage!
Pass the Kool-Aid, I must be thirsty....
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Fantastic idea. Now let's see, such a company could charge fees for taking the second look, and even charge as much or more per coin that the TPG -- and yet the company could still shift the blame..er..uh..financial liability for any mistakes (even the ones the company missed itself) onto the original TPG. Hey, they could even say it's for the sole benefit of collectors, and not for the money, because they would give second opinions for free to collectors who trek themselves and shlep their coins to the one remote location each year that's the most convenient for the company. Cool! Financial rewards with minimal liability!