The great irony in all of this is that if the seller had not posted a thread crying about getting only $900 for the coin, who knows whether he or the buyer would have been any the wiser?
If this piece were made into a pocket piece and worn down to G-VG, would this counterfeit still be detectable? Is there a minimum grade for knowing you bought a genuine example, not just a worn down & well made counterfeit?
If this piece were made into a pocket piece and worn down to G-VG, would this counterfeit still be detectable? Is there a minimum grade for knowing you bought a genuine example, not just a worn down & well made counterfeit?
The center of both dies is concave which make the center bulge out. If this wore down to VG or so, I bet it would still look very weird.
I've not read the entire thread yet, but does it look to anyone else that the fake obverse die was made from a later-date (post-1969 at earliest and probably post-1982) coin?
Geez, it looks like this coin was made in a textile mill. Seems like that would have been the first clue in hand.
Rick, your explanation and images for this research are of the same high quality as your books and are very enjoyable and informative to read. Thank you.
Thanks for the update, and the education. I bought mine in a PCGS for just this reason. (Though I think I would have identified this one in hand as a counterfeit as well.)
<< <i>Outstanding thread! Sometimes I don't learn much by reading threads on these boards, but in this one, I certainly learned some valuable info. Thanks for posting! >>
If your not learning much by reading these threads then why bother reading them in the first place instead of asking silly questions some of the times?
<< <i>Anyone feel like searching the auction archives for a slabbed example with that same spur on the O in One? >>
I have handled a few thousand 1909-SVDB cents over the years, and have never seen a genuine coin with that spur on the O of ONE. TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Nice detective work by Rick Snow -- very educational.
Board member "Rbf" did the right thing with this coin, so I give him credit.
However, I will NOT let him off the hook for the deceptive way he sold the 1922-Plain cent in the ANACS details-cleaned net graded holder, the details of which got poofed in that thread.
Nice update/report on the 09 S . Hope the ebay buyer is told of this thread and refunded so as not to be any question about sale................... Be nice if PCGS would send along similar info on the coins it BB/"Genuine".
Well folks, needless to say this is not exactly the outcome I was hoping for, but it is what it is, and at least we finally have some closure here.
First of all, I'd like to extend a personal thank-you to Rick of Eagle Eye Rare Coins for his selfless service in helping to resolve this matter. Members like Rick are undoubtedly an invaluable asset to the collecting community as a whole, and someone for whom we should all be grateful to have here.
Second, I would like to apologize to the forum members for my blatant arrogance and overconfidence in the authenticity of the piece. From what I'm being told, this is a very deceptive counterfeit that could have fooled anybody, yet I still feel embarrassed that this fake slipped past my careful scrutiny and managed to go undetected for all this time. There are many lessons to be learned here, and I think the most important one for me is NEVER to buy coins like this without authentication, no matter how well I think I can trust the source!
Considering what I know about the history of this coin, and how few times this piece has actually changed hands over the years, I strongly suspect it has never been seen by a TGP any time in the coin's lifetime. I personally obtained this coin back in the early 90's, and the person before me had it long before that, presumably well before slabbing was as mainstream as it is now. But all of that stuff is way out of the realm of my expertise, so I can't really say one way or another with absolute certainty.
On a final note, as soon as I got the bad news from EagleEye, I immediately sent the buyer a full refund, along with a lengthy email to express my sincere apologies. Hopefully the buyer will be forgiving in the matter, but if not & I end up getting dinged with a "neg" because of it, I totally understand and am willing to accept the consequences. It was clearly my fault in the first place for not having gotten a second opinion (preferably from a reputable TGP) prior to putting the coin up for auction so hastily. That was very poor judgment on my part, and I accept full responsibility for my actions.
Undoubtedly, this whole ordeal has been a great learning experience, not just for me, but for the entire community as a whole. Let my "sig" line be a constant reminder of the error of my ways, in hopes that I can learn from my mistakes and hopefully one day emerge as a better, more knowledgeable, and more upstanding person in the field of numismatics. Thank you all.
when I saw this in the other thread I thought the very lower tip of Lincoln's chest looked odd, like it was even with the surface of the coin (either poorly struck or poorly cast). Not sure if that happens on a genuine 1909-S VDB???
<< <i>The great irony in all of this is that if the seller had not posted a thread crying about getting only $900 for the coin, who knows whether he or the buyer would have been any the wiser? >>
And it may have sat for another 20 years...
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Sorry to post the same questions twice in this thread, but I really am curious. The S VDB is the last piece I need to obtain to finish the Lincoln set I inherited from my grandfather. While I plan to buy it in a TPG holder and crack it out, I am a bit concerned about these well made counterfeits in lower grades.
If this piece were made into a pocket piece and worn down to G-VG, would this counterfeit still be detectable? Is there a minimum grade for knowing you bought a genuine example, not just a worn down & well made counterfeit?
<< <i>Well, well, here's another one with the same diagnostics as this example. Or not? bob Ebay auction >>
I do not see the spur on the O of ONE on that one, though the pictures are so bad I would not buy that coin for other reasons.
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Any Professional Dealer should be able to spot fakes or they won't last in business for very long. People like Capt Henway, who was one of the original authenticators at ANACS have even more experience then me.
Besides learning about fakes here, if you really want to get educated about counterfeits, sign up for the Counterfeit Detection course at the ANA Summer Seminar this year.
I teach the Flying Eagle and Indian Cent course and the highlight is when I break out the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library and detail the various counterfeits included there. I also share them with the J.P. Martin and Bob Campbell, who teach the Counterfeit Detection course when I am up there. I think, for Indian Cents the Fly-In Club set is more comprehensive. These fakes are loaned like books to members of the Fly-In Club who request to see them. On request, I can bring them to shows as well.
BTW, rbf donated the bogus 1909-S VDB the the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library.
Rick: Thanks for the report. I made copies of everything and added it to my files. The VDB looks like it has been added to a 1909-S Lincoln. It just doesn't look right. If you're interested, here is a post I just made on a fake 1914-D w/pics. It's about the #5 post in the thread. The name of the thread is:
nice thing to say about paypal.
JT
It is health that is real wealth, not pieces of gold and silver. Gandhi.
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>Excellent! I'm almost tempted to send my 09-S VDB for a second opinion, NGC slab and all. >>
Why? >>
There's an easier way to avoid all this hassle. Buy direct from the mint, speaking of '09s. Moderns are a lot safer and thankfully there are many unpoofed threads which prove this.
<< <i> BTW, rbf donated the bogus 1909-S VDB the the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library. >>
I didn't want this to get overlooked. Very classy thing to do, rbf.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Looking at the side-by-side photos it appears that the countefeit Lincoln and the wheat ears are both offset away from the rims more than on the real coin.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Comments
only $900 for the coin, who knows whether he or the buyer would have been any the
wiser?
Great job Rick, you are the master of copper.
Kudos to rbf for his courage to come forth!!!
GB
If this piece were made into a pocket piece and worn down to G-VG, would this counterfeit still be detectable? Is there a minimum grade for knowing you bought a genuine example, not just a worn down & well made counterfeit?
The center of both dies is concave which make the center bulge out. If this wore down to VG or so, I bet it would still look very weird.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Nice work, Rick. Thanks for doing it.
Steve
Did you return the coin to rbf?
Anyone got a link to the ebay auction?
<< <i>Anyone got a link to the ebay auction? >>
link
Rick, your explanation and images for this research are of the same high quality as your books and are
very enjoyable and informative to read. Thank you.
R.I.P. Bear
Someone remind me, wasn't this coin slabbed by a TPG'er in the past? Seems like it was net graded my someone other than PCGS?
<< <i>What a great thread, thanks for educating us Rick.
Someone remind me, wasn't this coin slabbed by a TPG'er in the past? Seems like it was net graded my someone other than PCGS? >>
No. That was the 1922-Plain, which was net graded as VF-20 Details Corroded.
Remarkable, all of the squiggle marks in the fields.
Makes me feel ill.
[edit] Interesting about the filing job on the rim. I suppose that these counterfeits are fussed over. Evil.
<< <i>Outstanding thread! Sometimes I don't learn much by reading threads on these boards, but in this one, I certainly learned some valuable info. Thanks for posting! >>
If your not learning much by reading these threads then why bother reading them in the first place instead of asking silly questions some of the times?
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
I've never seen so many strike throughs on a cent.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Anyone feel like searching the auction archives for a slabbed example with that same spur on the O in One? >>
I have handled a few thousand 1909-SVDB cents over the years, and have never seen a genuine coin with that spur on the O of ONE.
TD
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
March of Time - 27 Centuries in Gold
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=36590
With the close-ups I understand and see what you are mentioning but am sure I would
have a difficult time at auction viewing or from a photo
Like they say, if the coin is valuable and raw, there is problem a reason
looking at previous sales, I wonder if the 1918/17 Buffalo is also suspect
Board member "Rbf" did the right thing with this coin, so I give him credit.
However, I will NOT let him off the hook for the deceptive way he sold the 1922-Plain cent in the ANACS details-cleaned net graded holder, the details of which got poofed in that thread.
bob
Ebay auction
First of all, I'd like to extend a personal thank-you to Rick of Eagle Eye Rare Coins for his selfless service in helping to resolve this matter. Members like Rick are undoubtedly an invaluable asset to the collecting community as a whole, and someone for whom we should all be grateful to have here.
Second, I would like to apologize to the forum members for my blatant arrogance and overconfidence in the authenticity of the piece. From what I'm being told, this is a very deceptive counterfeit that could have fooled anybody, yet I still feel embarrassed that this fake slipped past my careful scrutiny and managed to go undetected for all this time. There are many lessons to be learned here, and I think the most important one for me is NEVER to buy coins like this without authentication, no matter how well I think I can trust the source!
Considering what I know about the history of this coin, and how few times this piece has actually changed hands over the years, I strongly suspect it has never been seen by a TGP any time in the coin's lifetime. I personally obtained this coin back in the early 90's, and the person before me had it long before that, presumably well before slabbing was as mainstream as it is now. But all of that stuff is way out of the realm of my expertise, so I can't really say one way or another with absolute certainty.
On a final note, as soon as I got the bad news from EagleEye, I immediately sent the buyer a full refund, along with a lengthy email to express my sincere apologies. Hopefully the buyer will be forgiving in the matter, but if not & I end up getting dinged with a "neg" because of it, I totally understand and am willing to accept the consequences. It was clearly my fault in the first place for not having gotten a second opinion (preferably from a reputable TGP) prior to putting the coin up for auction so hastily. That was very poor judgment on my part, and I accept full responsibility for my actions.
Undoubtedly, this whole ordeal has been a great learning experience, not just for me, but for the entire community as a whole. Let my "sig" line be a constant reminder of the error of my ways, in hopes that I can learn from my mistakes and hopefully one day emerge as a better, more knowledgeable, and more upstanding person in the field of numismatics. Thank you all.
Rick F.
when I saw this in the other thread I thought the very lower tip of Lincoln's chest looked odd, like it was even with the surface of the coin (either poorly struck or poorly cast). Not sure if that happens on a genuine 1909-S VDB???
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Although hard to really tell from the bad photos it does like there is the bump off of the wheat stalk and the spur on the O.
K
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
And nice response too, rbf.
Nice find AUandAG: Ebay auction
I directed the seller to this thread.
<< <i>The great irony in all of this is that if the seller had not posted a thread crying about getting
only $900 for the coin, who knows whether he or the buyer would have been any the
wiser? >>
And it may have sat for another 20 years...
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
If this piece were made into a pocket piece and worn down to G-VG, would this counterfeit still be detectable? Is there a minimum grade for knowing you bought a genuine example, not just a worn down & well made counterfeit?
Aaron
YOU DA MAN!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>Well, well, here's another one with the same diagnostics as this example. Or not?
bob
Ebay auction >>
I do not see the spur on the O of ONE on that one, though the pictures are so bad I would not buy that coin for other reasons.
TD
Any Professional Dealer should be able to spot fakes or they won't last in business for very long. People like Capt Henway, who was one of the original authenticators at ANACS have even more experience then me.
Besides learning about fakes here, if you really want to get educated about counterfeits, sign up for the Counterfeit Detection course at the ANA Summer Seminar this year.
I teach the Flying Eagle and Indian Cent course and the highlight is when I break out the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library and detail the various counterfeits included there. I also share them with the J.P. Martin and Bob Campbell, who teach the Counterfeit Detection course when I am up there. I think, for Indian Cents the Fly-In Club set is more comprehensive. These fakes are loaned like books to members of the Fly-In Club who request to see them. On request, I can bring them to shows as well.
BTW, rbf donated the bogus 1909-S VDB the the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
The VDB looks like it has been added to a 1909-S Lincoln. It just doesn't look right.
If you're interested, here is a post I just made on a fake 1914-D w/pics.
It's about the #5 post in the thread.
The name of the thread is:
nice thing to say about paypal.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>Excellent! I'm almost tempted to send my 09-S VDB for a second opinion, NGC slab and all. >>
Why?
<< <i>This is such an informative and useful thread isn't it about time the cracks that can do so delete it? >>
The original thread should not have been deleted. Locked if it was becoming a problem, but not deleted.
Abuse by moderator---just because you can doesn't mean you should.
<< <i>
<< <i>Excellent! I'm almost tempted to send my 09-S VDB for a second opinion, NGC slab and all. >>
Why? >>
There's an easier way to avoid all this hassle. Buy direct from the mint, speaking of '09s.
Moderns are a lot safer and thankfully there are many unpoofed threads which prove this.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
BTW, rbf donated the bogus 1909-S VDB the the Fly-In Club Counterfeit Library. >>
I didn't want this to get overlooked. Very classy thing to do, rbf.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
scammers would have taken it back and sold again somewhere else
Looking at the side-by-side photos it appears that the countefeit Lincoln and the wheat ears are both offset away from the rims more than on the real coin.