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***Authenticity Report - THE 1909-S VDB ***
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
Forum member "rbf" listed a 1909-S VDB cent two weeks ago which I questioned its authenticity. To me it looked so odd, that I questioned whether it was a 3" "coaster"! Rick was gracious enough to supply extra images but none of them settled my question about its authenticity. I requested that he send the coin out to me to photograph and authenticate. The coin arrived today and here are my findings.
The coin is not a coaster. The E's are not slanted, as the images showed. That is strange indeed and I don't have a decent explanation.
The coin is indeed counterfeit though. It is a die-struck fake. Upon opening the package it was obvious that it was "wrong". Here is the coin with a real 1909-S VDB. The difference? I guess I can say it didn't pass the "smell" test! It just didn't look right. Why? After another second looking at it I noticed that the rims were way too high. The portrait is too low in the die.
A real one is on the left. Notice on the fake, the field is dished. The die got concave in the die making process. So the field rises slightly in the center. There are other very subtle differences.
Lets look at the Mintmark:
This looks just like the real MM. This is where those who would OK this coin based on the MM would get taken. It is not an added S.
Next lets look at the edge:
You see very strong filing of the edge. This is very suspect. The fake when it left the dies likely had very sharp wire edges. This would have made anyone condemn it as a fake, so the counterfeiter had to file it down.
Now, I hope I have convinced everyone about the coin. But lets look at other things. On the reverse, off the O in ONE is a die flaw that is never seen on any genuine 1909-S VDB:
This is the ultimate smoking gun! It is much easier to know the diagnostics of an original than to know the diagnostics of every fake out there. No genuine 1909-S VDB has that flaw. This is a great diagnostic for this fake. A raised lump is a depression on the die. This depression in the die is not fixable by the counterfeiter, so unless he remakes the die, all fakes from this die will have this defect.
Over by the E in E PLURIBUS is a lint depression. These may be on the die (they would be raised) or are a strike-through made when the counterfeit was struck. Regardless, when did you ever see a 1909-S VDB with a lint strike-through? Sure, it could happen, but it is very odd.
Here are some more. Also, notice how low the relief of Lincoln is.
Here is the VDB with more depressions:
There is a small lump just off the tip of the base of the wheat ear. This is not known on genuine pieces.
Thanks again to "rbf" for sending the coin. I hope I have helped the cent collectors out there. I don't think "rbf" should have suffered the negative comments many threw out at him. I applaud him for responding to our questions in a decent and forthright manner. I think that a collector should know his coins if he is selling them. Once a question arises about a coin, the only thing to do is withdraw the coin from sale until it can be authenticated. That is what he did.
The coin is not a coaster. The E's are not slanted, as the images showed. That is strange indeed and I don't have a decent explanation.
The coin is indeed counterfeit though. It is a die-struck fake. Upon opening the package it was obvious that it was "wrong". Here is the coin with a real 1909-S VDB. The difference? I guess I can say it didn't pass the "smell" test! It just didn't look right. Why? After another second looking at it I noticed that the rims were way too high. The portrait is too low in the die.
A real one is on the left. Notice on the fake, the field is dished. The die got concave in the die making process. So the field rises slightly in the center. There are other very subtle differences.
Lets look at the Mintmark:
This looks just like the real MM. This is where those who would OK this coin based on the MM would get taken. It is not an added S.
Next lets look at the edge:
You see very strong filing of the edge. This is very suspect. The fake when it left the dies likely had very sharp wire edges. This would have made anyone condemn it as a fake, so the counterfeiter had to file it down.
Now, I hope I have convinced everyone about the coin. But lets look at other things. On the reverse, off the O in ONE is a die flaw that is never seen on any genuine 1909-S VDB:
This is the ultimate smoking gun! It is much easier to know the diagnostics of an original than to know the diagnostics of every fake out there. No genuine 1909-S VDB has that flaw. This is a great diagnostic for this fake. A raised lump is a depression on the die. This depression in the die is not fixable by the counterfeiter, so unless he remakes the die, all fakes from this die will have this defect.
Over by the E in E PLURIBUS is a lint depression. These may be on the die (they would be raised) or are a strike-through made when the counterfeit was struck. Regardless, when did you ever see a 1909-S VDB with a lint strike-through? Sure, it could happen, but it is very odd.
Here are some more. Also, notice how low the relief of Lincoln is.
Here is the VDB with more depressions:
There is a small lump just off the tip of the base of the wheat ear. This is not known on genuine pieces.
Thanks again to "rbf" for sending the coin. I hope I have helped the cent collectors out there. I don't think "rbf" should have suffered the negative comments many threw out at him. I applaud him for responding to our questions in a decent and forthright manner. I think that a collector should know his coins if he is selling them. Once a question arises about a coin, the only thing to do is withdraw the coin from sale until it can be authenticated. That is what he did.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Moral of the story: Buying expensive raw coins on eBay is strictly for experts (and suckers).
Very good follow up brother.
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Working for the boss every night and day
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<< <i>So if I am reading this correctly, this is not even a really "good" fake, right? >>
It's actually an excellent fake and would fool 90% of collectors.
Russ, NCNE
Any guesses on how the dies were made? They seem to be of excellent quality and made from a real coin since the mint mark and VDB were all correct and the S in the #3 die position.
FrederickCoinClub
I do not recall seeing that one before. Wonder if it is out of China?
TD
Ryan
<< <i>What was the seller's response upon receiving the news?
Ryan >>
My guess is he was fooled. 15 to 20
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<< <i>Forum member "rbf" listed a 1909-S VDB cent two weeks ago which I questioned its authenticity. To me it looked so odd, that I questioned whether it was a 3" "coaster"! Rick was gracious enough to supply extra images but none of them settled my question about its authenticity. I requested that he send the coin out to me to photograph and authenticate. The coin arrived today and here are my findings.
The coin is not a coaster. The E's are not slanted, as the images showed. That is strange indeed and I don't have a decent explanation.
The coin is indeed counterfeit though. It is a die-struck fake. Upon opening the package it was obvious that it was "wrong". Here is the coin with a real 1909-S VDB. The difference? I guess I can say it didn't pass the "smell" test! It just didn't look right. Why? After another second looking at it I noticed that the rims were way too high. The portrait is too low in the die.
A real one is on the left. Notice on the fake, the field is dished. The die got concave in the die making process. So the field rises slightly in the center. There are other very subtle differences.
Lets look at the Mintmark:
This looks just like the real MM. This is where those who would OK this coin based on the MM would get taken. It is not an added S.
Next lets look at the edge:
You see very strong filing of the edge. This is very suspect. The fake when it left the dies likely had very sharp wire edges. This would have made anyone condemn it as a fake, so the counterfeiter had to file it down.
Now, I hope I have convinced everyone about the coin. But lets look at other things. On the reverse, off the O in ONE is a die flaw that is never seen on any genuine 1909-S VDB:
This is the ultimate smoking gun! It is much easier to know the diagnostics of an original than to know the diagnostics of every fake out there. No genuine 1909-S VDB has that flaw. This is a great diagnostic for this fake. A raised lump is a depression on the die. This depression in the die is not fixable by the counterfeiter, so unless he remakes the die, all fakes from this die will have this defect.
Over by the E in E PLURIBUS is a lint depression. These may be on the die (they would be raised) or are a strike-through made when the counterfeit was struck. Regardless, when did you ever see a 1909-S VDB with a lint strike-through? Sure, it could happen, but it is very odd.
Here are some more. Also, notice how low the relief of Lincoln is.
Here is the VDB with more depressions:
There is a small lump just off the tip of the base of the wheat ear. This is not known on genuine pieces.
Thanks again to "rbf" for sending the coin. I hope I have helped the cent collectors out there. I don't think "rbf" should have suffered the negative comments many threw out at him. I applaud him for responding to our questions in a decent and forthright manner. I think that a collector should know his coins if he is selling them. Once a question arises about a coin, the only thing to do is withdraw the coin from sale until it can be authenticated. That is what he did. >>
God bless you sir and your actions to help the hobby as well as the collector
<< <i>Wonder if it is out of China? >>
Gulp.
<< <i>Wonder if it is out of China?
>>
I thought in the original post the OP had it for quite some time (20 years??)
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
This would be an exceedingly tedious process, but a profitable one since you could then mint as many as you wanted. It also alooks as though the counterfeiter used an artificial aging process, and that's what probably made it suspect to EagleEye.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My V Nickel Registry Set - https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>So if I am reading this correctly, this is not even a really "good" fake, right? >>
It's actually an excellent fake and would fool 90% of collectors.
Russ, NCNE >>
Apparently it would also fool a good percentage of dealers.
Rick, thanks for the report, this is great stuff.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So if I am reading this correctly, this is not even a really "good" fake, right? >>
It's actually an excellent fake and would fool 90% of collectors.
Russ, NCNE >>
Apparently it would also fool a good percentage of dealers.
Rick, thanks for the report, this is great stuff. >>
And reason to have good detailed pictures of a higher dollar coin if purchasing raw. Way too much risk for my money.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
On the fake coin, they are too thin and have a higher relief than that of an authentic example (or at least this is what I'm seeing from the images).
I don't doubt that this is a VERY good counterfeit 09-S VDB, but a well trained eye, such as Rick's, could spot this difference.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Methinks a number of people, me included, will be looking at their coins to see if they are fake - slabbed or not.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
I am curious if and how rbf responded, and what steps were taken concerning the sale. It is too bad we will never know if a TPG cert was attempted and when the counterfeit was made (IIRC, rbf said he'd had it 20 years and backed off to around 12-15).
Lance.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
It shows that selling or buying these raw is risky.
The fake is a good one, the VDB and S style look close enough.
The only clues in the original pics were the funky toning and the portrait.
In the pics Rick shows the die chip in the S is wrong (looks like doubling not a rounded chip) and the struck throughs are strange but still that's a good enough fake that many would think is real.
<< <i>Great post, and thanks to rbf also for sending the coin in and subjecting it to greater scrutiny. >>
Uhhhh....lets just say that was after 500 posts of coaching shall we?
Great job and thanks for taking the time to detail
your findings with pics and explanations.
Once again shows that these highly counterfeited keys are best
certified or purchased from a seller, like yourself that you can trust
to have the knowledge and integrity to separate the good from the bad.
You will get a few feathers in your cap Rick for this work I'm sure. Thanks.
Great post and great detective work. That's one reason I love this place.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.